Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2011 10:05:32 GMT -5
You missed the word "modern", but then again, Albanians were never famous for being accurate.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2011 10:13:10 GMT -5
Again , same old s**t. Serbs cry Jasenovac , Croats cry Bleiburg. Its this self-victimization that's most prevailent among the Jews but seems like Serbs and Croats picked it up as well although I would say its more extreme on the Serb side. It's so ridiculous to assume there was a seemless thread from WW2 leading into the 90s war. Different circumstances. You cannot compare a direct genocide against Serbs, with 700,000 dead people, with a limited act of revenge such as this so called Bleiburg incident when even wikipedia (Jesus Christ!!!) fails to provide an adequate estimate of the losses + i was struck to read that in Bleiburg also CETNIKS were executed. Anyways, the Bleiburg incident just shows what kind of bitches the British really are, while the Jasenovac MASSACRE shows simply that Croats have a very dark History. So, your generalizations were once again .... hmm you know ... weak and baseless.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2011 10:16:41 GMT -5
Also it is very interesting to study the behavior of our guest radiate here. Nearly ALL croats i have talked to are exactly like him. At first the try to seem like they have a neutrality and an equal distance from the facts, then they start making it seem like they put all evidence on a fair basis, accusing (lightly) Croatia a little bit just to make it seem more reliable and fair, AND THEN GO ALL THE WAY TO THE MOST IDIOTIC assumptions and distortions of the real events.
A highly dirty tactic if you ask me. I guess they (and the Mudjahedins) must have learned all those tricks by the austrians...
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 10:33:51 GMT -5
700,000 is a baseless 'estimate.' There is no hard evidence supporting such a claim. Figure out why the claimed numbers by most of the Serbian interpretation range from 250,000 to 1,000,000. That's a huge margin of error and it doesn't take a genius to recognize some funny business there. If you want a more clear and factual estimation based on evidence then I encourage you to look at the work of Serbian professor Bogoljub Kocovic. Of course you don't probably care about the facts as they may not exactly support your ridiculous position.
The Cetniks murdered in Bleiburg were mostly loyal to Nedic who had a similar government to Pavelic , only in Serbia. Most of Draza's Cetniks fled or turned coat into Partisans when the time was right.
Bleiburg saw the murder of civilians , a large portion were civilians , particular children and this is evidence derived from Slovene excavations of mass graves on the Austrian border. But Croat nationalists have also blown these numbers out of proportion probably because the Serb historians were doing it with Jasenovac already.
Agreed. No Croat should be proud of Jasenovac and the British were liars and con artists. Quite a bit of Croats were detained and killed in Jaseonvac as well for insubordination. One of them was Vlatko Macek, the legitimate leader of most Croats and even Tudjman's family was massacred by Ustase. Even my own pokojni grandfather , who wasn't a Partisan by the way, was threatened by an Ustasa just for making a small joke.
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Post by terroreign on Jun 14, 2011 15:00:41 GMT -5
lol @ comparing jasenovac to bleiburg
a genocide committed by nazis & croats, to a heavy-handed string of executions of mainly ustasa carried out by communists.
sorry man but noone cares about bleiburg but ustasa/fascist sympathizers.
and 700,000 for jasenovac isn't an exaggeration, i believe 500,000 was the initial croatian estimate
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Post by ulf on Jun 14, 2011 15:22:16 GMT -5
Total number of people killed in Jasenovac is ~600.000, according to the Yad Vashem center, so number of ~500.000 killed Serbs is totally realistic
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 16:20:28 GMT -5
lol @ comparing jasenovac to bleiburg a genocide committed by nazis & croats, to a heavy-handed string of executions of mainly ustasa carried out by communists. sorry man but noone cares about bleiburg but ustasa/fascist sympathizers. and 700,000 for jasenovac isn't an exaggeration, i believe 500,000 was the initial croatian estimate I won't compare Bleiburg to Jasenovac. Because the Jasenovac massacres were blown up and distorted far more than any other event in the region up to this time. Jasenovac was a tragedy but no longer is it about the victims but its used as a political bat to administer some moral clubbing and justify 'retaliatory' actions even if they are 50 years later with a whole new generation and whole new political climate. There was no official Croatian estimate. There was a Yugoslav one that changed several times but settled on 500,000 I believe. And the changes weren't small tweaks but giant leaps in the scale of 100s of thousands = huge margin of error. It relied on biased personal testimony with very little looking into the scene of the crime as well as doing a bit of simple mathematics. Yad Vasheem did no official investigation. It merely copied and pasted one of the outrageous numbers flaunted by the Yugoslav government for war reprocution aid. There simply were not enough Serbs existing to support such blown up numbers. 500,000 Serbs alone in one area of camps and this is NOT COUNTING the hundreds of thousands that died due to fighting and disease in Croatia and Bosnia alone ( i.e. not counting Serbia. If the blown up numbers of Jasenovac were true , even 500,000 , then something around a million Serbs must have died in Croatia/Bosnia total in 4 years time frame. Hell , if that happened there wouldn't be a problem in the 90s would there? No way you would have half a million Serbs in Croatia and another million and some change left in Bosnia. Just would not be possible to repop that quickly in one generation and the mass graves of 700,000 or so people wouldn't be easy to hide either. You know how they say , extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is barely any to support such high numbers in Jasenovac. Please , read the work done by Vladimir Zerjavic and Bogoljub Kocovic ( A nationalist Serb professor). It is well thought out , meticulous , and based on all the available evidence. Read these by Kocovic : Žrtve drugog svetskog rata u Jugoslaviji (Casualties of WWII in Yugoslavia; Biddles of Guilford for Veritas Foundation Press, London, 1985.) Nauka, nacionalizam i propaganda (Science, Nationalism and Propaganda; Paris, 1998) And I find it mind boggling how you were the same Serbs that complained that 8,000 dead in Srebrenica were clearly blown up numbers and that little scientific work has been done on it. But this can be margin of a few thousand error at most but with Jasenovac its a margin of error in the order of hundreds of thousands , basically a far more outrageous claim, and you accept it without question. I think Serb nationalist Dr. Kocovic said it right with : Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 16:22:04 GMT -5
And how did this devolve into another WW2 argument? See how fvcked up Balkan debates are? I thought we were talking about the economy in the present.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 16:23:24 GMT -5
^^ Nvm. It's reply #18 by Pyrros pulling the old 'WW2 Card' when he ran out of valid arguments.
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Post by ulf on Jun 14, 2011 16:38:37 GMT -5
Prisojanin, not long ago I bought a book about all statistics in Serbia and Yugoslavia from the beginning of modern Serbian state, and if there is some data about the population in years 1941 and 1945 I will post here. That way we will know better how valid is the data from Yid Vasheem center
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 17:05:49 GMT -5
Kocovic already did that but go ahead. You really should.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 14, 2011 18:08:41 GMT -5
Can we please not discuss the attempted annihilation of the our people with this crypto-Ustasha?
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 15, 2011 0:28:58 GMT -5
^^ Nvm. It's reply #18 by Pyrros pulling the old 'WW2 Card' when he ran out of valid arguments. Just like radiate tried to pull the old '91 card (which in addition is fake as hell) when he run out of arguments. Serbian actions in the war speak for themselves. Not all Croats so easily forget.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 15, 2011 1:06:47 GMT -5
In any case killing hundreds of thousands of defenceless civilians doesn't compare (in the slightest) to a war that killed around 20,000 people (in total) in 4 years. The idea that sporadic crimes committed by Serbs somehow compares to the systematic genocide waged by Croats is laughable.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 15, 2011 2:34:32 GMT -5
I could take it one step further. If the west : a) inflated the victims of srebrenica by 4 times (the actual mudjahedins killed were about 2000) b) never ever ever ever mentioned the death of 3,000 innocent Serb children and women around Srebrenica
Then it is fair to multiply any Serbian casualty by 4, and in addition apply a penalty factor of 10, due to b). According to the above the 700,000 of Jasenovac could become 700,000*4*10 = 28,000,000 dead serbs!!
THE GREATEST NUMBER EVER IN HUMAN HISTORY!!
I know this sucks, but we must play dirtier than those dirty b1tches. And if Serbs are too innocent, correct, brave, naive and reluctant to engage in such a stupidity, WE, the foreigners (who are used in such dirty games) could take care of it...
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 15, 2011 7:55:25 GMT -5
Can we please not discuss the attempted annihilation of the our people with this crypto-Ustasha? Afraid to think a little?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 15, 2011 8:00:29 GMT -5
lol, he's not a crypto-ustasa, he's just a smart ass trying to tweak nerves. Hey I have an idea. Lets wait for ulf then. He has the book with population statistics. I want him to verify for himself what Kocovic already confirmed. I'm personally not going to post charts of numbers since the research has already been done and I already sourced even a Serbian reference. No, there is a bigger issue at foot here. That issue is how and why people would accept such obvious and blatently false information so openly , willingly , and uncritically and then the same people complain that information was twisted and distorted ( particularly numbers of victims--> Srebrenica) when regards them. And the margin of error for Srebrenica is miniscule compared to Jasenovac. It's an extrodinary claim and it requires extraordinary evidence. Other wise you guys are beliving information based on blind faith ( or perhaps hatred).
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 15, 2011 8:06:50 GMT -5
Pyrros or maybe you're assuming too much and taking such a ridiculous number like 700k for granted. Consider that the number is already distorted as is. Divide it instead of multiplying it even more and you might get a far more realistic number. Your fixation with this mythical halo around Serbs is almost beyond belief. ( No nation is this innocent.) I really wonder if you believe actual angels floated down from heaven and helped the defenders of Kosovo Polje . Pyrros, what kind of family does your wife have? Serb nationalist? Yugoslav? Orthodox or more secular? Just curious , you don't have to answer any of those questions.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 15, 2011 8:40:28 GMT -5
Radiate, my wife's family is typical Serbs from (western) Bosnia (they say kruh instead of hlijeb, grijanje instead of grejanje and vrhnje instead of pavlaka), nobody talks politics there. All this involvement is my own thing. Also the fact that i like (mostly western) Bulgaria and south Serbia and the fact that i love going there is also my own initiative which no one of our Bosnian Serb family members share or understands.
Now regarding the numbers, i just try and mimic the game played by the west as they have demonstrated for the last 20 years. Nothing more, nothing else. Pure dogmatic, tactical propaganda based on the exact same principles (over-inflation, endless repetition) on which they have developed their own anti-serb propaganda.
Now, the fact that i have never ever heard a Serb adopting such crazy ideas, the fact that they NEVER tried to take advantage of anything, and they are ALWAYS ready to accuse themselves before accusing any one else, (things that the rest of the yugoslavs have been abusing for ages) shows simply that among all yugoslavs ....... THEY ARE THE ANGELS.
Period. Proven. End of story.
PS
BUT!! This is big but!! Very often, the above *GOOD* characteristics (that i attributed to Serbs) are also signs of the strong, as opposed to the methods used by the weaker nations (Albs, Greeks, Croats, Boslims). In that sense if i was Croat/Boslim i would take the "angel" part with a dual mode of perception.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 15, 2011 10:18:58 GMT -5
Yes and they say Vlak instead of Voz , Zrak instead of Vazduh , even some say Tisuca instead of Hiljada. What you described are common in Croatian vocabulary. Don't worry , I'm not saying your wife is Croat but its not hard to see that Western Bosnia became more linguistically tied to Croatian like Eastern Bosnia did to Serbian. Anyway , thanks for answering the questions. I understand its reactionary but it doesn't get us any closer to a more factual figure for numbers. What have the Serbs blamed themselves for in last 100 years aside from not being aggressive enough? On a personal level we are all ( Croats , Serbs , Bosniaks , etc) pretty humble and make humor about our own faults. We are easy going in that way but when it comes to politics that's a completely different story. All sides try to portray themselves as politically blameless when dealing with their neighbors but I notice the Serbs take this to another extreme. They delve into global conspiracies to undermind their nation , they have a severe victim complex, never admit aggression, and blame everyone else for their problems ( remember you started worked up about Croatia's superior export economy trying to make it as some conspiracy against Serbs so i.e. the problems with the Serbian economy is somehow our fault, etc.) Everyone has problems reconciling the past but Serbs really have a problem with this. Its as if you think all your neighbors owe you something. Balkan people in general need to get their heads out of the sand and stop pretending the world was like it was 100 years ago. I see Serbs and Albanians struggling the most with this. Your false dichotomies due no service in the form of a valid or convincing argument. The methods Serbs used in the past fail. They lost more than they tried to gain. They were basically defeated by these 'weaker nations' in one fashion or another. Serbs are no longer a threat to Croatia ( we'll never have logged down roads again or an internal bloody rebellion) , Albanians made a country out of Kosovo. Greeks? How are they even involved? Many Serbs look up to Greeks actually. The only consolation prize Serbs got was 49% of Bosnia under their control but didn't manage to divide the country out of existence. But to be honest I said too much about it already. Serbia is no threat and they will collapse internally way before they explode externally. You guys can do what you want there , its your lives and well being on the line , not ours. Just know that you will never claim our Adriatic If you can live with that we can be BFFs
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