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Post by terroreign on Aug 31, 2011 16:14:07 GMT -5
^ greater serbia, chento, serbs were the *least* greater, Miloshevich granted Vardar banovina its independance. Please be careful what you say. the macedonian people voted overwhelmingly for independence. our politicians granted the people their wish. i believe milosevic toyed with the idea of dividing macedonia with the greeks, but the greeks were smart enough to stay out of it. i think he was also a little busy in croatia and bosnia, trying to cling to a greater serbia there. what we have today is a serbia that is much closer to serbia-proper. with the exception of sandzhak and ethnic hungarian areas in voivodina, then serbia is approaching it's natural borders.... the only legitimate orthodox church in macedonia is the serb church...because the "macedonian" one never existed, and because because the people of FYROM 100 years prior were all of serb ethnic identity. chetniks began in macedonia, you celebrate serbian slava, you worship serb heroes (Marko Kraljevic), and even wear dinaric serb hats (Galicnik - Mijaks). Your alphabet is a recent adaptation of Vuk Karadzic's, and Skopje was the capital of the Serbian empire. You should be building a 100 ft statue of Emperor Dusan, and not Alexander Makedonkey...
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Post by terroreign on Aug 31, 2011 16:22:36 GMT -5
wtf? if you knew history you'd know that in 1913 all of FYROM was part of the kingdom of serbia, and this without any resistance. serbs always will and did consider fyrom slavs to be serbs, however the communists supported the fake identity and their descendants today (governments of Serbia, Montenegro, etc) feed the people the same thing for sake of the status quo.
serbs know that if these southern serbs stopped this dirty game they're playing (and victims of), they'd receive recognition and autonomous rights in greece.
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Post by ulf on Aug 31, 2011 18:22:22 GMT -5
the macedonian people voted overwhelmingly for independence. our politicians granted the people their wish. i believe milosevic toyed with the idea of dividing macedonia with the greeks, but the greeks were smart enough to stay out of it. i think he was also a little busy in croatia and bosnia, trying to cling to a greater serbia there. what we have today is a serbia that is much closer to serbia-proper. with the exception of sandzhak and ethnic hungarian areas in voivodina, then serbia is approaching it's natural borders.... the only legitimate orthodox church in macedonia is the serb church...because the "macedonian" one never existed, and because because the people of FYROM 100 years prior were all of serb ethnic identity. chetniks began in macedonia, you celebrate serbian slava, you worship serb heroes (Marko Kraljevic), and even wear dinaric serb hats (Galicnik - Mijaks). Your alphabet is a recent adaptation of Vuk Karadzic's, and Skopje was the capital of the Serbian empire. You should be building a 100 ft statue of Emperor Dusan, and not Alexander Makedonkey... Agree here with Krivosanin. There was good number of Serbs present especially in western part of Macedonia, heck even my own origins are from there(dad side)
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 31, 2011 19:15:57 GMT -5
Democracy also means majority rule. Why the heck should we even bother with less than 1 percent of the total population ? You dont like it ? Leave the country, nobody is putting a gun to your head. Why bother? Because that is democracy. We do it. We have about 500 Greeks on our books...go figure.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 31, 2011 19:24:59 GMT -5
The autonomy of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was recognised by the Serbian Orthodox Church in 1958. The MOC however went once step further and declared itself autocepholous in 1967. The Serbian Church has recently set up a parallel Church in Macedonia under the name 'Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric', which is under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Church. So far, it has been a complete failure with very little following. As for Macedonians being Serbs, well the Macedonian language will be studied in Serbia from next year; Îä íîâàòà ó×åáíà ãîäèíà Ìàêåäîíñêèîò ¼àçèê ïðâïàò å ñå ó÷è âî Ñðáè¼àÑêîï¼å, 29 àâãóñò 2011 Ïðâïàò âî íàñòàâàòà âî Ñðáè¼à âî íîâàòà ó÷åáíà 2011/2012 ãîäèíà å ñå âîâåäå èçó÷óâàœå íà ìàêåäîíñêèîò ¼àçèê, à ïðè êð༠ñå ïîäãîòîâêèòå çà ïå÷àòåœå áóêâàð íà ìàêåäîíñêè çà ïðâîîääåëåíöèòå. Ìàêåäîíñêèòå äåöà âî £àáóêà è âî Ïàí÷åâî, êàäå øòî èìà íà¼ìíîãó Ìàêåäîíöè, íî è ñåêàäå êàäå øòî ãè èìà âî Ñðáè¼à, âî íîâàòà ó÷åáíà ãîäèíà ïðâïàò íà ó÷èëèøòå å ãî èçó÷óâààò ñâî¼îò ìà¼÷èí ¼àçèê. Áîð÷å Âåëè÷êîâñêè, ïðåòñåäàòåë íà Íàöèîíàëíèîò ñîâåò íà Ìàêåäîíöèòå âî Ñðáè¼à, çà „Äî¼÷å âåëå“ âåëè äåêà ñå ïðàâàò ïîñëåäíèòå ïîäãîòîâêè çà ïå÷àòåœå áóêâàð ïî ìàêåäîíñêè ¼àçèê çà ïðâîîääåëåíöèòå. - Ìîæàì äà êàæàì äåêà ó÷åáíèêîò å ãîòîâ. Òîà çíà÷è äåêà áè òðåáàëî äà âëåçå âî ïå÷àò. Ó÷åáíèêîò å ãî ôèíàíñèðà Ìèíèñòåðñòâîòî çà îáðàçîâàíèå è íàóêà íà Ðåïóáëèêà Ñðáè¼à, à ãî ïîäãîòâè¼à íåêîëêóìèíà ñòðó÷œàöè îä Ìàêåäîíè¼à, ïðåä ñ` îä Ìèíèñòåðñòâîòî çà îáðàçîâàíèå. £àñ ñå íàäåâàì äåêà íà¼äîöíà äî 1 îêòîìâðè 2011 ãîäèíà îâî¼ ó÷åáíèê, êàêî ïðâ îä âàêîâ âèä âî Ðåïóáëèêà Ñðáè¼à, å áèäå èçäàäåí. Òîà çíà÷è äåêà å áèäå äðæàâåí ñëóæáåí ó÷åáíèê çà èçó÷óâàœå íà ìàêåäîíñêèîò ¼àçèê - âåëè Âåëè÷êîâñêè. Òî¼ ñî æàëåœå çàêëó÷óâà äåêà îä 45.407 Ìàêåäîíöè íà ïîïèñîò âî 1991 ãîäèíà, ïîðàäè ðàçíè ïðè÷èíè, âî 2002 ãîäèíà êàêî Ìàêåäîíöè ñå èç¼àñíèëå ñàìî 25.874. www.maticanaiselenici.com/?page=read_news&id=24044
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 31, 2011 23:31:23 GMT -5
the people of FYROM 100 years prior were all of serb ethnic identity. Too bad neither the people from Macedonia at those times, nor every single observer that passed through there ever recorded your "fact". Serbia stole lands populated with Bulgarians and when Serbs couldnt turn the Bulgarians into "Southern Serbs" (obviouslly people too different to the real Serbs when they were always described as southern Serbs,), they decided to "Macedonize" them - which was unfortunate and sucsessful act, but it is serbian invention: it is all an result from the velikoserbian policies - stealing lands from their neighbours that are NOT populated with serbs. And dont use your "argument" that Bulgarians are half serbs. Slavs in the Bolkans were not Serbs. Original Serbs werent even Slavs. You are dagestano-slavs that mixed with western southslavs. Bulgarians are eastern southslavs. Even the slavic ingredient in both nations is different. The macedonians of course are eastern south slavs, which is a clear indicator they are not serbs. I wont go to the language. Also the serbians that ruled Macedonia are NEVER claimed as Macedonians by the Macedonians. However Bulgarian Samuel and all his dinasty (and we have sources in which his nephew himself declares he "was Bulgarian by birth") are claimed by Macedonians as "Macedonians", when they were all recorded as Bulgarians.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 1, 2011 0:27:18 GMT -5
the people of FYROM 100 years prior were all of serb ethnic identity. Too bad neither the people from Macedonia at those times, nor every single observer that passed through there ever recorded your "fact". Serbia stole lands populated with Bulgarians and when Serbs couldnt turn the Bulgarians into "Southern Serbs" (obviouslly people too different to the real Serbs when they were always described as southern Serbs,), they decided to "Macedonize" them - which was unfortunate and sucsessful act, but it is serbian invention: it is all an result from the velikoserbian policies - stealing lands from their neighbours that are NOT populated with serbs. And dont use your "argument" that Bulgarians are half serbs. Slavs in the Bolkans were not Serbs. Original Serbs werent even Slavs. You are dagestano-slavs that mixed with western southslavs. Bulgarians are eastern southslavs. Even the slavic ingredient in both nations is different. The macedonians of course are eastern south slavs, which is a clear indicator they are not serbs. I wont go to the language. Also the serbians that ruled Macedonia are NEVER claimed as Macedonians by the Macedonians. However Bulgarian Samuel and all his dinasty (and we have sources in which his nephew himself declares he "was Bulgarian by birth") are claimed by Macedonians as "Macedonians", when they were all recorded as Bulgarians. CULTURAL AND NATIONAL LIBERATION MOVEMENT OF THE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE (end of the 19th - beginning of the 20th century) The spring of the national revival of the Macedonians was manifested at the beginning of the 19th century. The main advocate of the Macedonian conscience was the middle class, organized into parishes practising different forms of local self-management. In that respect the Macedonian intellectuals excelled, led by the teachers. During the 60s and 70s the process of national cognizance emerged as a perpetual struggle of the Macedonian middle class for exclusion of the Constantinople Patriarchite representatives and their replacement with the Macedonian ones. Introduction of the Macedonian language into churches and schools was advocated, as well as the renewal of Ohrid Archbishopric as Macedonian independent church. The first printing houses were opened, textbooks and books were written in Macedonian with Old Church Slavic features. A large number of Macedonian national and cultural revivalists compiled folk songs and created literary and didactic works in local dialects as an affirmation of the Macedonian cultural and national conscience. Among them the most eminent were Yoakim Krchovski, Kiril Peychinovich, Yordan Hadji Konstantinov - Djinot, the brothers Dimitar and Konstantin Miladinov, Kuzman Shapkarev, Grigor Prlichev, Parteniya Zografski and Gjorgjiya Pulevski. The continuity in the development of the Macedonian conscience was slowed by the ecclesiastical, educational and governmental propaganda of the neighbouring monarchies - Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. They tried hard to assimilate the nationally revived Macedonian people by means of founding schools and churches and sending teachers and textbooks. The Macedonian people led by the intellectuals opposed the foreign propaganda. Anti-Patriarchite and anti-Exarchate movement was manifested on a massive scale in Macedonia. In the 90s of the 19th century Teodosie, the metropolitan of Skopje, was leading the struggle against the Greek Patriarchite and the Bulgarian Exarchate advocating the establishment of the Macedonian independent church i.e. the renewal of the Ohrid Archbishopric.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 1, 2011 7:09:26 GMT -5
Chento, the things like the one you posted are the reasons why Mk and Bg will never have close relations. Till in Macedonia you dont start learning your real history and stop distorting the history of my people I do not see it. And I regret it, because we are the closest nations on the Bolkans, I dare say much more than Serbs and Montenegrins, which at least had their own rulers in medievil thimes. Macedonia on the other hand was ruled by Serbs for 30ty years in the middle ages. Apart from that it was part of the Bulgarian realm for centuries. In the most important period the Macedonians were part of Bulgaria - the time of the creation of the Bulgarian ethnicity.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 1, 2011 18:43:38 GMT -5
All is not lost ioan.....
Bulgaria, Macedonia Linked by Common Past, Common Future - Foreign Minister. Novinite.com Diplomacy | September 1, 2011, Thursday
Bulgaria and Macedonia are eager to deepen their cooperation on all levels, the two countries' top diplomats Nikolay Mladenov and Nikola Poposki have agreed in Sofia.
"You can't make a friendship through a contract. A friendship is made with trust. When we have trust, we have real strategic partnership," Bulgaria's Foreign Minister Nikolay Mladenov told journalists Thursday at a joint news conference with his Macedonian counterpart.
Poposki, who was just appointed as the Foreign Minister in the third Cabinet of Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and his party VMRO-DPMNE, was on his first state visit to Bulgaria.
Mladenov and Poposki signed earlier on Thursday a Memorandum of Cooperation committing Bulgaria to back its neighbor on its European and Atlantic integration.
The document mandates that Bulgaria will assist Macedonia in its efforts to become a member of the European Union and NATO. The Bulgarian government hopes to effectively support the integration of its neighbor and to enhance friendly relations between the two countries.
The activities foreseen by the memorandum including the harmonization of Macedonian legislation with the acquis communautaire, the training of its civil servants and the boosting of its administrative capacity.
"Bulgaria and Macedonia are the two closest countries in the Balkans, and they are linked with a common past and a common future. We Bulgarians will be the happiest of all when we see Macedonia join the EU and NATO," Bulgarian Foreign Minister declared.
He stressed that Bulgaria had a moral obligation to help its neighbors with their EU and NATO integration.
Mladenov pointed out that the current relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia are based on the declaration signed by Bulgarian Prime Minister Ivan Kostov and his Macedonian counterpart Ljupco Georgievski in 1999.
"It is crucial that we not step back from this declaration but build upon it," the Bulgarian top diplomat stressed, adding that Bulgaria has always supported the independence and territorial integrity of Macedonia.
Mladenov did vow, however, that the two countries' diplomats would not conceal the problems between the two states. He said the diplomatic ties between Bulgaria and Macedonia in the rest years were still no match for the cordial relations between their people.
The Bulgarian government has expressed hopes that the authorities in Skopje would exert their efforts in order to terminate the hate speech and prejudice against Bulgaria, he said, adding that Bulgaria was also in favor of joint celebrations of common historical personalities and events.
Mladenov emphasized and the need to expand business and economic ties, insisting that Bulgarian business should be granted access to the Macedonian market that had been denied to it.
Macedonia's new Foreign Minister Nikola Poposki in turn expressed its content with the atmosphere of the talks with his Bulgarian colleague.
He said Bulgaria and Macedonia were looking in the same direction of a united Europe, and that economic cooperation, and especially big opportunities for infrastructure projects, are a priority.
"Keeping in mind the challenges that we faced in the past, today we can achieve a lot more and have a lot more constructive relations on all levels. This is my view and the view of my Bulgarian colleague," Poposki said.
"This way we will be going towards the end goal – making the entire region part of the EU. Not changing borders but making them purely administrative borders as part of the common European family," he added.
Poposki believes that the so defined platform of common European integration provides a good basis for progress in the relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia.
Macedonia's Foreign Minister Nikola Poposki also said Macedonia's Foreign Ministry did not have data that 750 000 "ethnic Macedonians" live in Bulgaria, and had not provided the press with such figures.
He thus refuted a propaganda piece published in August 2011 by Macedonian newspaper Dnevnik stating that some 750 000 "ethnic Macedonians" are living in Bulgaria, according to figures provided from the Foreign Ministry in Skopje.
Poposki said Poposki's visit to Bulgaria roughly coincides with the 20th year since Macedonia declared its independence from the former Yugoslavia in early September 1991.
On January 15, 1992, Bulgaria became the first sovereign nation ever to recognize the independence of Macedonia.
Bulgaria's recognition of Macedonia came under the name of "Republic of Macedonia". Ever since it was admitted to the UN, however, Macedonia is listed as FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) on Greece's insistence over the notorious Macedonian name dispute, which has also led Greece to block FYROM / Macedonia's accession to NATO and its talks with the EU.
Macedonian press have commented that the trip of Foreign Minister Nikola Poposki to Sofia is a sign of his intention to warm up ties with Bulgaria. During their news conference Thursday, Mladenov and Poposki did not touch upon the issue of a so-called "Friendship Treaty" proposed by Bulgaria in 2008, which has provoked controversy in Macedonia due to a perceived encroachment on the affairs of the country, and has yet not received an official response from the Macedonian side.
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Post by Arxileas on Sept 2, 2011 4:24:25 GMT -5
Well, well reunification with mother Bulgaria doesn't seem to far away after all that was the intention in the first place....
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 2, 2011 5:25:34 GMT -5
Well, well reunification with mother Bulgaria doesn't seem to far away after all that was the intention in the first place.... i know you guys think this would solve the 'name issue', but be careful what you wish for. union between r.macedonia and bulgaria would then open the question of slavic speaking regions of greece. remember san stefano bulgaria included much of aegean macedonia. i know things have changed there since, but areas such as lerin, voden and kostur would at least be part of this united state. trust me, an independent r.macedonia is in your interests, and your govt knows it. it is much easier to push us around, then it is to push a greater-bulgaria around...
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Post by Arxileas on Sept 2, 2011 7:08:38 GMT -5
Well, well reunification with mother Bulgaria doesn't seem to far away after all that was the intention in the first place.... i know you guys think this would solve the 'name issue', but be careful what you wish for. union between r.macedonia and bulgaria would then open the question of slavic speaking regions of greece. remember san stefano bulgaria included much of aegean macedonia. i know things have changed there since, but areas such as lerin, voden and kostur would at least be part of this united state. trust me, an independent r.macedonia is in your interests, and your govt knows it. it is much easier to push us around, then it is to push a greater-bulgaria around... It's inevitable for a greater bulgaria, you speak same language possibly mixed with slavic, anyhow i'm not an expert in languages & i don't claim one BUT both have no problem understanding you. Language is an indicator of ethnicity this should be very obvious to any one even under 10 years of age. You understand each other language wise. You celebrate same heroes as the Bulgarians. Where as the true Macedonians celebrate the liberation of Thessaloniki from the Turks and spoke also wrote Greek the very same language the ancient Macedonians spoke. Example you cant say Thessaloniki because you have no "TH" sound so hence you use solun the modern day word instead. The true macedonians can say proudly Thessaloniki...
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Post by missanthropology58 on Sept 3, 2011 3:37:15 GMT -5
I bet it must be boring for Greeks honestly. All these fucking idiots claiming to be Macedonians.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 4, 2011 18:57:34 GMT -5
i wonder if some fyromanians moved to the peloponnese would they eventually start identifying as spartans
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 4, 2011 19:04:16 GMT -5
i wonder if some fyromanians moved to the peloponnese would they eventually start identifying as spartans i guess this would be analogous to the krajina serbs who have moved to northern kosovo, claiming centuries of habitation....ajde srbe na vrbe!
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Post by ulf on Sept 4, 2011 19:07:17 GMT -5
i wonder if some fyromanians moved to the peloponnese would they eventually start identifying as spartans i guess this would be analogous to the krajina serbs who have moved to northern kosovo, claiming centuries of habitation....ajde srbe na vrbe! a be makedonecot... ne jadi lajna ;D
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Post by terroreign on Sept 4, 2011 19:10:01 GMT -5
i wonder if some fyromanians moved to the peloponnese would they eventually start identifying as spartans i guess this would be analogous to the krajina serbs who have moved to northern kosovo, claiming centuries of habitation....ajde srbe na vrbe! lol close but no cigar kirce-kurcovski, kosovo has been serbian for over a millennia and thus belongs to all serbs regardless of region. did you go to turkey for vacation this summer? did you visit Troy and feel nostalgic? ;D
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 4, 2011 19:15:11 GMT -5
i guess this would be analogous to the krajina serbs who have moved to northern kosovo, claiming centuries of habitation....ajde srbe na vrbe! lol close but no cigar kirce-kurcovski, kosovo has been serbian for over a millennia and thus belongs to all serbs regardless of region. did you go to turkey for vacation this summer? did you visit Troy and feel nostalgic? ;D no, not this summer. but trips to turkey are always enjoyable
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Post by uz on Sept 4, 2011 19:43:47 GMT -5
I'm sure "persia" would be more fullfilling. lol
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 4, 2011 19:49:31 GMT -5
I'm sure "persia" would be more fullfilling. lol yes, but my journey always ends in india and pakistan..
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