ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2011 8:05:02 GMT -5
Chento, I do not see anything groundbreaking in the fact that you retained some preslavic toponyms. THis happened in the other Bulgarian lands too: Thrace and Moesia. We have Thracian, Latin, Bulgar etc. However your lands were Peonian, which were Thracians. Later the slavs from the Bulgarian group settled in Macedonia, Moesia and Thrace and last but not least the Bulgars appeared at the same time in what is Macedonia and Bulgaria today. Conclusion: the ethnogenesis of Bulgarians and present day Macedonians is absolutely the same. As a proof of this until recently the Macedonians did identify as Bulgarians.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 30, 2011 8:22:05 GMT -5
"Serbs or Slavs? The two are not the same...."
Serbs are slavs who settled in those regions and founded towns by their own tribal name, i.e, Srbinovo in your Vardar etc....
J.Mikotcy:
"Serbs spread FIRST over Macedonia (Northern Greece) then into Illyria"
- J.Mikotcy, Otiorum Chroatiae, Vol I, Budapest, 1806, pp.89 to 112
Schafarik:
"One part of the Serbs unwilling to return with the majority to the north, REMAINED IN MACEDONIA." (Northern Greece)
- Paul Joseph Schafarik, Slavische Alterthumer, Vol II, Leipzig, 1844, pg 239
PS Don't be stupid by denying your own Serbian ancestry like the BuLgari who deny their own Turkish ancestry.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2011 8:24:56 GMT -5
You are citing authors that worked in 19 century. Maybe then some people believed the Serbs were just slavs. No one does today though.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 30, 2011 8:29:50 GMT -5
^ here we have it, THE BULGARSKI EXCUSES, what else do you have Ioan'che?
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2011 8:34:04 GMT -5
So again the Bulgarians shifted the worlds oppinion on the Serbs? Omg. U are unbelievable.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 30, 2011 8:58:09 GMT -5
^ Then why did the BuLgari needed to out of desparation plant stone inscriptions to prove the Southern Serbs are BuLgari when the whole world were writing unbiased opinions about Vardar, Ioan'che?
PS Jordan Ivanov the Bulgarian authority on all things Vardarian had ONLY found 1, 2 or 3 cases in which the name Bulgaria was used in Vardar prior to the work of your satanic Exarchos.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2011 9:06:14 GMT -5
First the Bitola inscription is proven to be real. Second, stop lying because only John Kyriotes Geometres when describing the Byzantine-Bulgarian wars with Samuel USES the name Bulgaria MANY MORE times. Back in 11th century. 8 centuries BEFORE the Exarchate.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 30, 2011 9:25:36 GMT -5
First the Bitola inscription is proven to be real. Second, stop lying because only John Kyriotes Geometres when describing the Byzantine-Bulgarian wars with Samuel USES the name Bulgaria MANY MORE times. Back in 11th century. 8 centuries BEFORE the Exarchate. oops Novi, i just noticed the bi tch tried to use a greek source. Do you want me to rape him?? PM me cause i aint go no time...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 30, 2011 9:31:17 GMT -5
"oops Novi, i just noticed the bitch tried to use a greek source. Do you want me to rape him??"
Pyrro, l seriously was licking my lips ready to smash him, o.k do it man ;D
PS Ioan'che, have fun, your going to regret it ;D
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2011 10:59:52 GMT -5
Your idea of raping has always been selfraping.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Sept 30, 2011 12:29:44 GMT -5
Show us.. with sources. Let's have a look.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 1, 2011 20:39:28 GMT -5
Lets start with a couple or a few quotes because time is so precious to me these days:
Quote 1, before the Satanic Exarchos:
Bratan Ivanov,a Serb from Macedonian land arrived in Russia (Makedonskie zemli Serbin' Bratan' Ivanov) in the year 1704.
Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 1704
Kapterev,N.A. "Harakter otnoshenii Rossii k Pravoslavnomu Vostoku v XVI i XVII stoletija" 1914 pp.348
This quote is more for Pyrro:
In 1723 Gerard Cornelius von Driesch,secretary of the Austrian delegation heading for Constantinopolis, mentioned that in Pirot there are Greeks and Serbs i this lands (Grichen oder Raitzen dieses landes).He also mentioned place named Grobblian eastern of Sofia saying that the greater part of its inhabitants are Serbs (Raitzen).
Cornelius,G.V.D. "Historische nachricht von der Rom. Kayser.Gross-Botschaft nacht Konstantinopol" Nurnberg 1723 pp.84; pp.102
Where are the Torlakian Serbs from Western Bugarska Ivo, they were Bulgarianised by force, just as the Bulgarians had semi succeed in Serbian Vardar.
Quote 3:
In an inscription from 1659 stands:"Mihail Mitropit, visitor of Holy God's Grave in the Holy Jerusalem, from the Serbian land city of Kratovo" (Mihail Mitropolit,poklonik bozhia groba svetago Ierusalima ot Srbskie zemli grada Kratova).
"Chtenija v imperatorskom' obshtesvja istorii i drevnosti Rossiiskih pri Moskovskom univerziteta" Moskva 1896 II 5th part pp.4a
Quote 4:
In 17th Century,Hadji Kalpha,a Turkish geographer recorded that mountains of the Castoria district are peopled by Serbs and Aromanians.He also mentiones that on the bank of the lake between Seres,Thesaloniki and Siderocaps there is a village inhabited by Greeks,Serbs and Aromanians.
"Rumeli und Bosna,Geographisch beschrieben von Mustapha Ben Abdalaih Hadschi Chalfa aus dem turkischen ubersetzt von J. von Hammer" Wien 1812 pp.80; pp.97
Quote 5:
In 1644 a Serb,Dimitrije Nikolajev (Serbjanin' Dmitrei Nikolaev) from Kastoria, arived in Russia.
Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 7156
Quote 6:
In 14th century Byzantine Emperor Kantakusen mentioned Serbs near Phillipi and Prosek.
Kantakusen "History", bk.II pp.256 ; pp.274
Quote 7, maybe a serb source:
Austrian emperor Leopold proclaimed Jovan Monastirlija from Bitolj a Vojvoda (Military chieftain) of the Serbian nation in Austria in 1691.
Trifunoski,F.J. "Makedoniziranje Juzhne Srbije" Beograd 1995 pp.24
Quote 8:
Hungarian historian Bonfini wrote about "Macedonia,which is now called Serbia" ("Macedoniam quam Serbua nunc appelant").
Ant.Bonfini "Rerum Hungarii Indec." II lib IX,Viennae, 1774 pp.248a
Quote 9:
Bulgarian publicist Rakovski noted in the 19th century that Macedonian emigrants in Srem and Southern Hungary called themselves Serbs and Greeks. G.S.Rakovski "Gorski Patnik" pp.267,268 (n.d.).
Quote 10:
Catholic Archbishop of Skoplje Matija Masarek, an Albanian, reported that the city as inhabited with "Grece, scismatici Serviani, Ebrei et Armeni" in a report written c.1770.
In 1790 he mentioned in his report that Turks are suspicious of Greeks and Serbs of Skoplje because they have sent letters to Russia.
"Scritture rif. nei congressi - Servia. Vol. III", marzo 1790
Quote 11:
Dimitrije Petrov from Kichevo arrived in Russia to collect funds for building church dedicated to St. Demetrius in Kichevo.He declared himself as coming from the Serbian land of Kichevo (Serbskie zemli goroda Karacheva) .The arrival is recorded as being by the: "(From) Serbian land (from) Ohrid's Eparchy (of the) Krachevite city Serb Dmitrei Petrov": "Serbskie zemli Arhidonskija Eparhi Krachevskogo goroda Serbjanin Dmitrei Petrov".
Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 1706, No. 7
These were during the time your cousins the Ottomans were in-control of my serbian southern Serbia
Quote 12, just to stick it up your BuLgarski arsenholen, READ THE FOLLOWING:
Archbishop of Ohrid Avram in 1634 arrived in Russia with escort.When asked,they said they were Greeks from the Serbian land of Ohrid (Grechane Serpskie zemli iz Ahridona Goroda) .
Archive of the Russian Ministry Of Foreign Affairs, Year 7142,No 8
If you want more, just ask ;D
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Oct 1, 2011 22:40:00 GMT -5
We’ve already established that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia. This was never disputed. The Serbs in Macedonia, however, have always been a minority. Ok, so there were Serbs and Greeks in Pirot. There are also Bulgarians in Serbia, and Bulgarians in Greece. As for Grobblian, I’ve never heard of this ‘place’ before. What was its total population? Feel free to elaborate. It seems there’s a ‘Kratovo’ in Serbia, Russia, and Macedonia. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratovo) Ok, so there was a village (ie. one village, one district) of mixed population. Lol. We’ve already established that there was one district of Kastoria that was inhabitted by Serbs and Aromanians. Hahaha. You’re a so dumb. Serbs are mentioned, OK. Avars have been ‘mentioned’ in Serbia. Once more, we already know that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia. The Serbs, however, were a minority. This is a political designation. Macedonia really was Serbian at one point (ie. Serbian Empire), but that lasted for some 20-30 years. On the other hand, Serbia was Bulgarian for muuuuuuch longer than that. Uhh ok.. so there were Serbs from the minority residing in Macedonia that migrated to Srem and Southern Hungary. Great. But as I’ve already mentioned, we’ve already established that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia. The Serbs, however, were a minority. Damn, you’re pretty stupid if you don’t understand the difference between a ‘minority’ and a ‘majority’. For this bit here, I’d like to see more of the source. Please go ahead and post some more info from this source. I’ll gladly read through it. Hahaha, Ohrid Serbian!? Ok, my “BuLgarski arsenholen” would like to read more. Put up some more quotes from this source. To clarify things for you, do keep in mind that Macedonia was a part of the Serbian Empire between 1346-1371. Around that same time Bulgaria was divided into three feudal states, and the last of the independent Bulgarian lands fell under the Ottomans in 1396. So technically, Serbia ruled over Macedonia when the Ottomans asserted their dominance. This is why you may see some references that label Macedonia as “Serbian land”. It’s a matter of political transition between powers. Serbia’s “influence” on Macedonia lasted for two decades.. that’s all, nothing more. I want to see you post sources that discuss the overall population of Macedonia, and not some isolated pockets of Serbs that can be found scattered throughout the land. So here, I’m asking.. let’s see 'em.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 1, 2011 23:13:35 GMT -5
"We’ve already established that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia. This was never disputed. The Serbs in Macedonia, however, have always been a minority."We've already established that there never was a Bulgarian or BuLgarski presence in Vardar, this was never disputed, but post Exarchos period (late 19th cent.) they suddenly appear It seems there’s a ‘Kratovo’ in Serbia, Russia, and Macedonia.Thankyou, it just proves again that Toponymns like Trnovo is alien to Slavo-Turks, known to you as Malko Tarnovo. Ok, so there was a village (ie. one village, one district) of mixed population.Thankyou again, you have now acknowledged that Serbian presence was much further south than tiny presence of Serbs in Vardar.......couldn't you find an excuse Ivo? LMAO Hahaha. You’re a so dumb. Serbs are mentioned, OK. Avars have been ‘mentioned’ in Serbia.Where?....Hvar Island? "Uhh ok.. so there were Serbs from the minority residing in Macedonia that migrated to Srem and Southern Hungary."The great Rakovski said this. Hey, l don't understand how this 100 or so people is so historically popular. 30,000 were relocated in the 7th century, then other 5 relocation of them to asia minor, then migrating to Austria Hungary etc.... This is a political designation. Macedonia really was Serbian at one point (ie. Serbian Empire), but that lasted for some 20-30 years. On the other hand, Serbia was Bulgarian for muuuuuuch longer than that.However, the people the Bulgarian Khans occupied over were SRBI. Southern Serbia was always filled with SRBI. Great. But as I’ve already mentioned, we’ve already established that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia. The Serbs, however, were a minority. Damn, you’re pretty stupid if you don’t understand the difference between a ‘minority’ and a ‘majority’.We've already established that there were never BuLgari present in Vardar, you must be stupid to think there was. For this bit here, I’d like to see more of the source. Please go ahead and post some more info from this source. I’ll gladly read through it.
I don't want your Bu Lgarski fingers to twisting everything that is pure and just into unproductive and dirty. To clarify things for you, do keep in mind that Macedonia was a part of the Serbian Empire between 1346-1371. Around that same time Bulgaria was divided into three feudal states, and the last of the independent Bulgarian lands fell under the Ottomans in 1396. So technically, Serbia ruled over Macedonia when the Ottomans asserted their dominance. This is why you may see some references that label Macedonia as “Serbian land”. It’s a matter of political transition between powers. Serbia’s “influence” on Macedonia lasted for two decades.. that’s all, nothing more.
It was the Serbs who protected the vardarians from the BuLgari and later did their best with your cousin 'the turks'. Re-read my quotes, these were from a time OF ZERO BULGARSKI OR SERBIAN INFLUENCE IN VARDARSKA AND THE PEOPLE WERE CLASSIFLYING THEMSELVES AS SRBI! I want to see you post sources that discuss the overall population of Macedonia, and not some isolated pockets of Serbs that can be found scattered throughout the land. So here, I’m asking.. let’s see 'em. I HAVE, THERE IS TWENTY PAGES HERE IN THE VARDAR FORUM THAT EXPLAINS THIS EVERY FREAKEN TIME IVO.....I ASK YOU TO GO THROUGH IT AGAIN TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS YOU HAVE A HISTORY OF MEMORY LOSS
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Oct 1, 2011 23:35:11 GMT -5
The Serbs brought pain, opression, suffering, and death to Macedonia and the Macedonian people.
That’s why the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all (ie. the IMRO) fought against the Serbs.
You gonna post them sources that discuss the idenity of the overall population of Macedonia or what!?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 1, 2011 23:40:54 GMT -5
^ No the oppression was due to the Bulgarian Exarchos. Did you see my 30 font size writing at all?
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Post by terroreign on Oct 2, 2011 3:19:28 GMT -5
Ok, so there were Serbs and Greeks in Pirot. There are also Bulgarians in Serbia, and Bulgarians in Greece. As for Grobblian, I’ve never heard of this ‘place’ before. What was its total population? Feel free to elaborate. it states serbs were the 'greater part of the population'. what's confusing to you about that. the real question is, do you have any neutral sources stating the majority of macedonia as ethnically bulgaria before the 18th century?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 2, 2011 3:50:40 GMT -5
^ Krivo, Jordan Ivanov, whom most of the Bulgarians here didn't even know about prior to me, was the chief authority of all things Bulgarian in Macedonia, he only managed to gather a few instances where the name Bulgaria was used in Vardar prior to the coming of the Exarchos.
PS Anything Prior to 1850's he'll be stuffed to find anything at all.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Oct 2, 2011 13:35:01 GMT -5
Hmm.. so you really are intellectually challenged huh. These are the quotes:
This does not speak of a Serb or Greek majority of Pirot.
I’ve never heard of this ‘place’ Grobblian, which is why I asked Pazar to elaborate. What was the total population of this ‘place’ I wonder..
Of course there are. Even earlier Serbian sources (ie. pre-propaganda sources) have attestest to the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia and its people. And the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia has been recorded throughout the middle ages.
The key thing to remember here is that we’re not focusing only on written documents. There is substaintial physical evidence that corroborates the findings of these sources.
For example:
1. Macedonian immigrants to the US and Canada built churches that were known as ‘Macedono-Bulgarian Churches’ and not ‘Macedono-Serbian’. This is a valid statment for all chruches built by Macedonian immigrants in the early 1900’s and I’ve been to all of them here in Toronto.
2. These same Macedonian immigrants established businesses, which they advertised as either ‘Macedono-Bulgarian’ or simply as ‘Bulgarian’ and not as ‘Macedon-Serbian’ or ‘Serbian’.
3. Bulgarian cemetaries can be found all throughout Macedonia, even today, after the ruling governments of Serbia and later Yugoslavia have attempted to destroy them over the past century.
Even today, you can still find those old (true) Macedonians that can attest to the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia in the past.
You, Pazar and co. appear to be one dimensional thinkers, but then again you have no idea about Serbia’s actual history let alone Macedonia’s.
All this is explained by your blind pursuit of the age old Serbian propaganda that holds no credibility in the real world.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 2, 2011 13:39:15 GMT -5
sorry asen but that 'physical evidence' is not before the 18th century. please try again
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