Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2011 4:34:18 GMT -5
Novi's point was Macedonia was not acurately depicted; At the end of the fifteenth and during the sixteenth centuries, many lands of the Balkan Peninsula, because of erroneous recollections of classical world, were, mostly by local writers, called Macedonia - even Old Serbia, Zeta (Montenegro), Albania, Bosnia and Hercegovina." The maps I posted refute this serbian propaganda. Just because you found one map that shows Makedonia within greek borders does not cancel Novi's argument.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 6, 2011 9:55:04 GMT -5
You're implying that for over 2000 years no one moved around. Quite the opposite my friend. It's most likely the original Ancient Macedon genes are completely out of the Balkan zone by now. Not according to recent genetic research. The genes are found mostly in today's Macedonian population, aswell as in Bulgaria and Greece (Northern Greece in particular). Looks like I’ve got to clear up your delusions again. First. The ancient Macedonians were not some convenient non-descript ‘Thraco-Illyrian’ mixture as you, and your ex-Bulgarian tribesmen, like to imagine; those, that is, that don’t hold the now fashionable view that the ancient Macedonians and other Paleo-Balkan peoples were in some way essentially ‘Slav’ to begin with . You clearly – and typically – choose to see them as being untainted by Greeks (God forbid !!) so as to be properly primed for that momentous coupling with the incoming Slavs that would create your glorious ‘Makedonski’ nation. In point of fact the ancient Makedones were very definitely a Greek-speaking people as the accumulated body of evidence (from various branches of enquiry) combines to testify – a view held almost unanimously by modern scholars in this field (with the exception of a few dissenting agnostics). The Makedones were entirely distinct from the assorted Illyrian and Thracian neighbours with whom, of-course, they naturally interacted throughout antiquity. As you’ve correctly pointed out in various posts, ancient Macedonia was a kingdom. This is rather an unsurprising deduction for a people that had not entered the sophisticated city-state culture of Hellas proper; the case with many other contemporary groups (such as their Greek-speaking cousins the Epirotes and most other Balkan peoples). The predecessors of most every Greek city-state had at one time also been a monarchy. Your 800 BC date of the Macedonian kingdom’s beginning is, however, very probably based on mythology. What we do know is that the historic home of the Macedonians was the Pierian mountains (also known as the ‘Macedonian mountain’) and the general highland about Olympus. This Macedonian homeland was also known as ‘Makedonis’ in antiquity. It is from here, after many generations, that the Macedonians expanded to take their place in history. By 550 BC, according to Nicholas Hammond, they had taken possession of the Pierian plain and Bottiaea (which they renamed Emathia, Greek for ‘sandy-land’). Soon after 550 BC they had taken Almopia and between about 520 BC and 510 BC Eordaea. According to their traditions they had destroyed and/or evicted the pre-existing populations in these areas … like the Grcki Katili that they were! Between 510 BC and 505 BC they expanded along the coastal strip and into Anthemus (south of Salonika) and along both banks of the lower Axios (a region they named as Amphaxitis in their Greek language). Sometime between 483 BC and 480 BC they had annexed the lands of the Elimiotae, Tymphaioi, Orestians, Lynkestians, Derriopes and Pelagonians and co-opted the monarchies of those regions into their own nobility. These Greek-speaking tribes were, until then, generally regarded as Molossian or Epirote tribes and were henceforth known collectively as the ‘Upper Macedonians’. Having incorporated this broad region inhabited by related Greek-speaking peoples the Macedonian state gained territorial depth and reserves of manpower and resources. However, there was lingering hostility for generations to come and the Macedonians were pitted against various Upper Macedonian tribes in battle, notably the Orestians and the Lynkestians, more than once. In fact the Pelagonian Menelaos (such a lovely Greek name), having been dispossessed of his ‘kingdom’ by Philip, ended up commanding the Athenian cavalry at the battle of Chaironeia. I doubt much of any of this is known to the people whose new hero is the ‘warrior on the horse’! After 480 BC the Macedonian state expanded into Mygdonia, Crestonia, Bisaltia and the western part of the lower Strymon valley although during this particular expansion it employed a policy of extermination and expulsion only to a limited expense – largely at the expense of the Thracian Edoni in Mygdonia. You will have noticed that the field of operation was almost entirely within the area of modern Greece. Under Philip II, the Macedonian kingdom expanded to cover most of the southern Balkans more or less as per the self-serving map you’ve produced. Philip obviously introduced garrisons to hold his new possessions as well as ruling through sections/parties within local populations whose interests coincided with his. Within his direct possessions he is known to have settled colonies of Macedonians in order to control areas of strategic value or otherwise vulnerable. To this end there was fairly heavy Macedonian colonisation in areas near the Aegean coast around Amphipolis and his new foundation Philippi for instance. These were largely in response to the Athenian threat and aimed at thwarting the influence of what was his most serious rival in that region. Mygdonia seems also to have received an influx of colonies again presumably to keep the Chalcidian cities in check. A notable example of this is the city of Kalindoia south of the Mygdonian lakes. It is interesting to observe the names of Kalindoian citizens that have come down to us. Of particular interest is the contrast between the proud Greek names of the Macedonian colonists and the Thracian names of the remnant Edoni (Diza, Kotys, Beithis) as well as names such seemingly Anatolian names as Kereventhis which, in my opinion is possibly a Bottiaean name – Kalindoia was in Bottike a region founded by the Bottiaeans who had survived the Macedonian expansion into Bottiaea. The Bottiaeans were reputedly originally colonists from (pre-Greek?) Crete – hence the seemingly Anatolian name. The Slavonic invasions ushered in a massive ethnographic upheaval, the greatest since the pre-historic migrations that introduced the Greeks, Illyrians and Thracians into the Balkan peninsula. It entirely changed the ethnography of the area. The zone of the Makedones largely contracted to the regions from where they originally expanded; back into their mountainous Pierian homeland and behind the protection of the marshland of the lower Macedonian plain. They seem also to have receded towards protection afforded by Thessalonica and the coast – still within range of Byzantine sea power. The Epirote Upper Macedonians eventually seem to have achieved critical mass such that they were able to retain possession of most of the Aliakmon valley – in addition to such towns as Kastoria. This is all evidenced by the survival of Greek in those regions. No doubt not all the old population was destroyed or expelled (although a good number seem to have made their way to Thrace which is probably the reason why a later Byzantine theme centred in that area was later called ‘Macedonia’). Those surviving locals would have come to terms with, and become absorbed by, the new-comers. However, the vast majority of such absorbed remnant groups that may have contributed to your people’s gene pool, just like that of the Bulgarians as a whole, were of ‘Thracian stock’, in your case namely the Paeonians. You may count, if you wish – and I’m sure you will - such ‘Upper Macedonians’ as the Pelagonians (who were, don’t forget, actually Greek-speaking Epirotes) and you may like to imagine that the Macedonian-Paeonian mixture formed around Demir Kapija stuck around to heavily contribute to your people’s ‘DNA’ but this is highly wishful. The Dragovites overwhelmed the Vardar valley and the Berzites (Bursyatsi) seem to have deep roots in the more westerly regions of your country. And let’s not forget the masses brought into Pelagonia by Khan Kuber. Let’s not. So, once again, if we were to pretend that the Slavic invasions had not caused any great upheaval (I know doing that is one of your favourite things) this is where we should expect to find the ‘DNA’ of the ancient Macedonians. I have created the map below for your convenience/education (and that of any other lost soul from your Republic) which depicts the logical place one would look to find ‘ancient Macedonian DNA’. You will see that the deepest concentration must be searched for around Pieria and Emathia in today’s Greek Macedonia – far from the FYROM and a Greek-speaking area since the days of the ancient Macedonians. I have also recorded the areas inhabited by the Epirote ‘Upper Macedonians’ for your reference in case you need to trace where they have left their DNA. [/URL] So what DNA studies are you talking about then? Is it IGENEA’s ‘very scientific’ (LOL) take on DNA studies? Self-declared ‘Macedonians’ send IGENEA their samples and IGENEA has inexplicably, and very uncritically, labelled whatever pattern it may have discerned as ‘antique Macedonian’. Give me a break. If anything, at most, it might be the ‘Paeonian’ thing coming through – or perhaps some grouping from the Neolithic period. Were these Slavo-makedonskis who sent in their sample from Pieria/Emathia? No, I didn’t think so … Or are you talking about the embarrassing work of your countrymen who collaborated with Antonio Arnaiz-Villena (who reminds me of Dr Nick from the Simpsons) with its incredibly shoddy methodology which concluded in Sub-Saharan origins for the Greeks (excluding the Cretans!) and a close genetic relationship with the Japanese!!! The same paper whose sample of Slavs from Skopje is seen to represent ancient Macedonian genes rather than that of the Dardano-Paeonians it might conceivably derive from (what has Skopje to do with the ancient Macedonians anyway?) Enough of your deluded BS.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2011 10:07:10 GMT -5
Alright all this lunacy to link FYR-makedonia with ancient makedons is ultra stupid, but also, in the same frequency, it is ultra stupid for neo-romans to give lectures about connections between neo-romioi and ancient greeks.
Not to mention the period from 400 AD (greece deserted by the Visigoths), and 500->900 AD (Greece totally inhabited/controlled by Slavs), which is the most "inconvenient" black gap in greek history.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 6, 2011 17:17:17 GMT -5
This from iGenea Quote: A antic macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological finds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece an minorities in Bulgaria and Albania. It is very important to differ between politics and genetics, we are a genetic institute and we don't have politic aims. All our data are published under the menupoint "Litterature", here the direct link: www.igenea.com/docs/bibliographie.pdf Inma Pazos iGENEA Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51 info@igenea.com www.igenea.com End Quote
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 6, 2011 18:29:02 GMT -5
This from iGenea Quote: A antic macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological finds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece an minorities in Bulgaria and Albania. It is very important to differ between politics and genetics, we are a genetic institute and we don't have politic aims. All our data are published under the menupoint "Litterature", here the direct link: www.igenea.com/docs/bibliographie.pdf Inma Pazos iGENEA Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51 info@igenea.com www.igenea.com End Quote You don't say? 'Discovered through the comparison of archaeological finds and persons with macedonian roots'? I can assure you that this did not happen. IGENEA's methodology - as far as labeling is concerned - is decidedly suspect. Your people are simply not in the right area. Your people's delusions simply have no bounds.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 6, 2011 18:57:32 GMT -5
Alright all this lunacy to link FYR-makedonia with ancient makedons is ultra stupid, but also, in the same frequency, it is ultra stupid for neo-romans to give lectures about connections between neo-romioi and ancient greeks. Not to mention the period from 400 AD (greece deserted by the Visigoths), and 500->900 AD (Greece totally inhabited/controlled by Slavs), which is the most "inconvenient" black gap in greek history. No we should leave it to you to lecture. Seriously Pyrros, I have no inclination whatsoever to discuss your half-digested theories. I must say though, what impresses me most about you, having read many of your ‘entertaining’ posts, is the magnitude of your ego. You seem to believe that you have found the truth that no-one has yet seen. Through some amazing convergence of events centred around you (born in Slav-toponymy-strewn Epirus; marrying a Serb; lengthy time in Crete; travels to Slavic lands of the Balkans etc etc) coupled with the self-declared sharpness of observation that only you possess, you have discovered the light. You have come by THE truth and are running with it hoping to spread the word, to enlighten all and to save your Balkan brothers (those who deserve saving, that is, no Albanians or Vlachs please). My God … you are the Messiah or Buddha or something. As they say ‘a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing’. Stick to your guitar-work.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 6, 2011 19:42:14 GMT -5
OK Beast. I could quite easily counter your arguments, and then you could counter mine etc etc etc. But i will not entertain you. You have been trying to 'remove' us from the scene for quite some time now, and you have failed. We are here, and we have strong backers. You are losing the name game. At best (for you), we will be known as Northern Macedonia or Upper Macedonia. This automatically implies there is a southern/lower Macedonia, and hence a future claim to be made. Whilst your economy slips further and further into the abyss, we are getting stronger. We are forging stronger links with our allies, and we are pushing for the rights of our ethnic Macedonian brothers in your current borders. Unlike previous wars, Macedonia has a voice now and we are playing the game correctly. We know we cannot defeat you on our own, but you have plenty of enemies - who are our friends. You know this and are scared s**tless - hence the name game.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 6, 2011 22:48:19 GMT -5
BigBlackBeast, great post about the history of Macedonia!!! I agree with everything you ve said! At last a member that have read a book and not one relying on his "sharp observations"!
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 6, 2011 23:15:41 GMT -5
surprise, surprise a bulgar agreeing with a greek. how convenient. it is obvious that bulgars have given up on the slavic macedonians of greece. this is a good thing for us, and for greece too i suppose. i do however find it strange that on one hand, these bulgars are quick to claim the glory of VMRO, who fought so hard against hellenism in Macedonia, and yet so easily bend over for the greeks today in their own narrow-minded interests.
kako ne vije sram bre bugari!
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2011 23:25:14 GMT -5
Alright all this lunacy to link FYR-makedonia with ancient makedons is ultra stupid, but also, in the same frequency, it is ultra stupid for neo-romans to give lectures about connections between neo-romioi and ancient greeks. Not to mention the period from 400 AD (greece deserted by the Visigoths), and 500->900 AD (Greece totally inhabited/controlled by Slavs), which is the most "inconvenient" black gap in greek history. No we should leave it to you to lecture. Seriously Pyrros, I have no inclination whatsoever to discuss your half-digested theories. I must say though, what impresses me most about you, having read many of your �entertaining� posts, is the magnitude of your ego. You seem to believe that you have found the truth that no-one has yet seen. Through some amazing convergence of events centred around you (born in Slav-toponymy-strewn Epirus; marrying a Serb; lengthy time in Crete; travels to Slavic lands of the Balkans etc etc) coupled with the self-declared sharpness of observation that only you possess, you have discovered the light. You have come by THE truth and are running with it hoping to spread the word, to enlighten all and to save your Balkan brothers (those who deserve saving, that is, no Albanians or Vlachs please). My God � you are the Messiah or Buddha or something. As they say �a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing�. Stick to your guitar-work. Fine said it, Charanis said it, Florin Curta said it, Runciman said it. Only "paparigopoulos??" had a different view lol, and some idiot from Ilia who wanted to prove that "Mostenica" is not a slavic toponym lol!! Its not my concern if certain "patriotic" arvanito-vlahs greek-wannabes still bury their head in the sand. pre-1900 we had around over 5,000 slavic toponyms in Greece... and not only toponyms.... but other inconvenient remains as well (i'll get back to that, for any bitch who dares). A little bit of knowledge is dangerous thing indeed. But its the only way to reach full knowledge. OTOH, zero knowledge (the one you and other albanians/kosovars/vlahs are practicing) is definitely worse. You are right, i have little knowledge. After all these experiences, i have little knowledge... still learning.... You??? have you got a single clue??? your experiences are through useless books.... which act as political megaphones rather than means of knowledge.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2011 23:36:57 GMT -5
surprise, surprise a bulgar agreeing with a greek. how convenient. it is obvious that bulgars have given up on the slavic macedonians of greece. this is a good thing for us, and for greece too i suppose. i do however find it strange that on one hand, these bulgars are quick to claim the glory of VMRO, who fought so hard against hellenism in Macedonia, and yet so easily bend over for the greeks today in their own narrow-minded interests. kako ne vije sram bre bugari! No surprise my friend, if you recall what uncle Pyrros had written in the other thread. The greek neo-makedon dogma, is 100% based in pro-bulgar propaganda. I get bashed in forums, whenever i dare to point out the similarities between the slav-makedonian accent and the serb accent. (e.g. lavovi vs l#uvovi...) PS as for bending, the greeks are masters when it comes to bending before the west, i mean they have a PhD in this. Albanians are getting close.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 6, 2011 23:54:08 GMT -5
OK Beast. I could quite easily counter your arguments, and then you could counter mine etc etc etc. But i will not entertain you. I sincerely doubt that you would be able to counter anything ... and yes, I am sure you would be entertaining me if you try ... You have been trying to 'remove' us from the scene for quite some time now, and you have failed. We are here, and we have strong backers. You are losing the name game. At best (for you), we will be known as Northern Macedonia or Upper Macedonia. This automatically implies there is a southern/lower Macedonia, and hence a future claim to be made. Whilst your economy slips further and further into the abyss, we are getting stronger. We are forging stronger links with our allies, and we are pushing for the rights of our ethnic Macedonian brothers in your current borders. Unlike previous wars, Macedonia has a voice now and we are playing the game correctly. We know we cannot defeat you on our own, but you have plenty of enemies - who are our friends. You know this and are scared s**tless - hence the name game. This sort of argumentation tells me that you are probably younger than I initially thought. Sure ... the end result might be as you say. But your people will still have to contend themselves with continuing to dream their fantastic dreams ... that they are somehow related to an ancient Greek people to whom they will doggedly deny any 'Greekness'. They will continue to masquerade as Philip, Alexander and Cleopatra happy to pretend that these names were never actually Alexandros, Philippos and Kleopatra. They will deny anything to do with the Bulgarians even though they were proudly Bulgarians not too long ago. They will need to ensure they don't leave their flags in the rain too long (both the ventilator and the stolen Sunburst they still insist on using when no-one is looking) lest they get washed out and revert to their original red, white and green. Basically they will have to be satisfied with staring wistfully at Bucephalus' balls in the centre of Skopje ... the closest they will ever come to a relationship with the 'Anticki Makedonski'.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 7, 2011 0:20:50 GMT -5
As long as the end result is in our favour, everything else is irrelevant. We will speak our Macedonian language, sing our Macedonian songs, and wave our flag in Solun...
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 7, 2011 0:44:18 GMT -5
Fine said it, Charanis said it, Florin Curta said it, Runciman said it. And I said it also if you care to look at my post. I talk of a massive upheaval that wrought the biggest ethnographic change in the Balkans since the arrival of the Greeks, Illyrians and Thracians. The point I was making to Chento is that if one was to ignore the effect of the Slavonic (and other) migrations into the peninsula, the logical area one would have to go to in order to ‘find ancient Macedonian DNA’ is – obviously – the areas where the ancient Macedonians actually lived (as per my map). I certainly accept the Slavonic invasions (the effect of which I know is greater than Greeks generally care to admit) but I am fairly orthodox in my conclusions about the result on peninsula Greece. That is to say, I certainly do not believe in the entire eradication of the Greek people from the mainland which you seem to accept as an article of faith that somehow ties in with your ‘unique’ theories. And let me point out, I am joined in this view by the scholars you mentioned above, none of whom argue for the complete disappearance of the Greeks (a la Fallmerayer thesis) as you seem to suggest (although I do not read German so cannot account for Vasmer’s view). I have probably had the works of Fine, Runciman, Charanis and Vasmer in my personal library long before your epiphany. I have used Vasmer’s study in previous work myself and can see (as many others have seen) the obvious contrast in his toponymics between eastern and western Greece. Eastern Greece having always the larger population historically and therefore apparently better able to resist the inroads of the Slavs. For the record Vasmer counts about 2119 Slavic toponyms in Greece (some contested) of which over a third (hardly surprising) are in Macedonia. Pyrros, I happen to share many of your views concerning the current state of Greece and Greek mentality and the need for Greeks to become more introspective, not to unthinkingly ride on the glorious coat-tails of their forefathers and to look further afield in order to progress (although Serbia is not the first place that comes to my mind for this). I harbour considerable anger and great frustration for them and I agree that we have to go through a serious catharsis. However, some of your deductions ... well, let’s just say they’re an acquired taste.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 7, 2011 0:44:59 GMT -5
As long as the end result is in our favour, everything else is irrelevant. We will speak our Macedonian language, sing our Macedonian songs, and wave our flag in Solun... Good luck with that ...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 7, 2011 1:21:41 GMT -5
BBB, Glad, you show good signs of thinking. You are on a good path. But you definitely need some knowledge of slavic languages in order to proceed with your research. You talk about eastern greece not being so much slavicized, etc etc etc... But as we know, the greatest NON-greek speaking formal entity ever (the great Vlahia was located in .... eastern Greece (thessaly right??) So??? Well, i too, believe that we came from the east, after Slavs left for the north, the empty lands were filled with vlahs/albanians and other nations of the orient... I HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY to share Falmerayer's theory for the whole of Greece... Maybe his theory has some truth, BUT ONLY FOR PELOPONESE. Falmerayer claims that we are a mix of slavs/albos/vlahs/etc..... I say that if we had the slightest drop of slavic blood (as the toponyms suggest) we would be MUCH STRONGER. Or at least if we had the slavic experience we would be much more vivid. Basically what we exhibit as a behaviour is nothing near anything slavic.... (CRETANS/CYPRIOTS excluded, for the obvious reasons, not because they are slavs, but because they are something similar ..... ANCIENT GREEKS!!!!!!) you see the great complications here??? Nobody agrees on simple facts in order to start making some progress. So i would like to to comment on my next post, about the cultural score of each balkanian. (although Serbia is not the first place that comes to my mind for this). If you had the slightest "suspicions" it should be the first and last. Empires don't bomb european nations for nothing you know. A lot of secrets reveal to the uninitiated greek, the moment he steps foot in the balkans (and especially Serbia). Man take this note: SERBIA and all the negative anti-slav propaganda were useful for the british policy regarding Greece. VERY CONVENIENT. VERY smart. They managed to hide the greatest key to the greek puzzle!!!! genius!!! Also the greek-serb friendship served also this purpose. To cut Serbs for many of their key historical facts hidden in Greece!!! BRITS ARE MASTERS. They are ages beyond us.... AGES.... However, some of your deductions ... well, let�s just say they�re an acquired taste. like?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 7, 2011 1:28:12 GMT -5
BBB, i am talking as a friend man, would you classify balkans "tribes" according to power/culture/strength/production of culture/products/love for life/nature/spirit/*REALLY* proud of their culture/folklore? (greeks we act like we are proud, but we don;t maintain anything, maybe because he had nothing in the first place) Where would you put the Cretans/Arbanovlahs/Cypriots/Bulgars/fyromaks/Serbs/Croats/Albies? maybe we should many different categories for vlahs: arbanovlahs (attica) = (the worse kind)/zero quality grekovlahs (metsovo/epirus)= bad, but better than arbanovlahs greko-mako-vlahs (thessaly) = a little better mako-vlahs (makedonia)= much better (wonder why!!!) PS WHY DID THE anglo masters decided to make albanian-cultured places the centers of hellenism??? Why did they separate Cyprus from Greece? How come and during the EU-wild-partying era (1990-2011) ex-vlahic-albanian places (like Viotia) managed to surpass Iraklio/Crete in economic figures? this is outrageous.... The difference in dynamics between the two regions is chaotic..... why did the western Gods wanted to create this illusion??
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 7, 2011 2:24:23 GMT -5
As long as the end result is in our favour, everything else is irrelevant. We will speak our Macedonian language, sing our Macedonian songs, and wave our flag in Solun... chento bro, this will mean a new war. By simply playing the b1tch of the greater powers, you will lose what you already have. Why? because the other party will bend even more than you!!!! Serbs are really smart, in the sense that they do not accept help from no-one. That struck me in the beginning, but now i start to realize how wise (and proud) this stance is. Maybe you should listen to your inner Serbian part a little bit in this aspect.
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Post by odel on Oct 7, 2011 8:24:11 GMT -5
I'm not going to mix myself into the ongoing discussion, although I want to address this. Labels like 'Illyrian', 'Ancient Macedonian' and 'Hellenic' and etc aren't used by geneticists basically because it would be ridiculous to do so. They could have named Y-dna or mt-dna markers after ethnic labels but it doesn't fit with what previous test have shown. This is simply put plain wrong.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 8, 2011 19:54:25 GMT -5
As long as the end result is in our favour, everything else is irrelevant. We will speak our Macedonian language, sing our Macedonian songs, and wave our flag in Solun... chento bro, this will mean a new war. By simply playing the b1tch of the greater powers, you will lose what you already have. Why? because the other party will bend even more than you!!!! Serbs are really smart, in the sense that they do not accept help from no-one. That struck me in the beginning, but now i start to realize how wise (and proud) this stance is. Maybe you should listen to your inner Serbian part a little bit in this aspect. the serbs have also always had sponsors. the problem for the serbs now is that those sponsors have turned their back on them. even russia has only paid lip-service to serbian interests. you see, all balkan nations are just chess pieces for the great powers. serbia is just one of them. the current serbian leadership knows this and is trying feaverishly to get on the right side of world politics, but it is too late now. serbia will not get back what it has lost. macedonia on the other hand has a better chance.
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