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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 12, 2011 13:21:03 GMT -5
Krivo, my point is that Illyrian to Albanian is just a name change. If Illyrians survived that far up north and were known as Albs then it is safe to say that ethnically Illyrian=Albanian and vice-versa. My opinion on the name change is that as Illyrians retreated from civilized life and the rest were Latinized, there was no one left to uphold the Illyrian name to which they were known by outsiders. They emerged later as Albs when internal pressures saw that they started to re-expand.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 13, 2011 0:26:15 GMT -5
Krivo, my point is that Illyrian to Albanian is just a name change. No. Nothing is mentioned about illirians for several centuries before the first mention of albs.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Oct 13, 2011 5:57:42 GMT -5
Krivo, my point is that Illyrian to Albanian is just a name change. If Illyrians survived that far up north and were known as Albs then it is safe to say that ethnically Illyrian=Albanian and vice-versa. My opinion on the name change is that as Illyrians retreated from civilized life and the rest were Latinized, there was no one left to uphold the Illyrian name to which they were known by outsiders. They emerged later as Albs when internal pressures saw that they started to re-expand. Not really a name change. Albanians were one of several tribes of Illyrians that managed to survive. No matter how much you wish it , not all Illyrians are/were Albanians. Plus the modern Albanian identity is only part Illyrian. Don't forget centuries of turkification of your culture.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 13, 2011 14:59:59 GMT -5
Not really a name change. Albanians were one of several tribes of Illyrians that managed to survive. lol, talking about arbitrary conclusions, the guy is the champ.
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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 13, 2011 23:18:55 GMT -5
^There is no logic in that. If the Illyrians that survived as far north as Dalmatia and BiH were recorded as Alb then right you have a large cross section of Illyrian tribes. Some of the many Illyrian tribes from just Albania to Hercegovina are the Taulanti, the Labaetae, the Dardani, the Autariatae, the Ardiaei, and the Daorsi. There is no way the Albs of Mati or Kruja and and the Albs of Hercegovina stem from the same Illyrian tribe. My point is that wherever it is that Illyrians survived, they survived to be known as Albs. What does that tell you?
This is irrelevant ethnically. The centuries of Westernization of Croats doesn't make them any less ethnically Croat for example. Also our culture was barely Turkified, we know what is authentic Alb and what is not. Big deal if we drink Turkish coffee and eat burek.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 14, 2011 3:55:59 GMT -5
Plisbardhi, I think what Prisojanin means is that: the Albanians were ONE of the Illyrian tribes. They are recorded as such by roman/byzantine authors (was it Plinii? ). The others were assimilated by the western southslavs: Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins... So those people are ALSO DESCEDANTS of the Illyrians. I must say that I agree with Priso completely.
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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 14, 2011 13:30:54 GMT -5
I understand what Priso meant, its just not logical. As I showed above, its a weak scientific argument to say Albs originate from just one Illyrian tribe. They may be named after just one, but thats not what we're talking about. I'm not denying that a good chunk of south Slav are descendants of Illyrians, I fully agree with that. My point is that if they weren't Slavicised they would be known as Albanians, which is basically the non-ancient ethnic designation for Illyrians.
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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 15, 2011 3:22:30 GMT -5
^'Albanian' is a foreign term applied to my people, we called ourselves (some still do) Arben(r)or, much later Shqiptar. My point stands that if in the hinterland of Dubrovnik there were people called Albanians, they must have been Illyrian remnants and were recognized as the same people as Albs further south. For example its not like all Vlachs were united, but nonetheless all Balkan Romance speakers were identified as such.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 15, 2011 8:01:52 GMT -5
albs came to the balkans post 1000 AD and occupied ex-Greek, ex-Slav(Serb) lands. end of story.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Oct 15, 2011 9:10:21 GMT -5
I understand what Priso meant, its just not logical. As I showed above, its a weak scientific argument to say Albs originate from just one Illyrian tribe. They may be named after just one, but thats not what we're talking about. I'm not denying that a good chunk of south Slav are descendants of Illyrians, I fully agree with that. My point is that if they weren't Slavicised they would be known as Albanians, which is basically the non-ancient ethnic designation for Illyrians. What's not logical about it? This is not logical: Albanians were Illyrians. Therefore , all Illyrians are/were Albanians. Not all Illyrians were described as Albanians , not even close. Dalmatians were never referenced as Albanians. Montenegro is pretty much Dubrovnik's countryside and nobody is disputing the Albanian segment of Illyrians was there. It still doesn't prove that entire Illyria ( and even some of Pannonia) was 'Albanian.' Albanians were one of the few Illyrian tribes that survived outright assimilation unlike the Dalmatians for example , who became Croats but we Croats also became Dalmatians at the same time. It's not all black and white. Your Albanian culture is heavily turkified and you need to acknowledge that. Don't be like Serbs and pretend that period never existed in your history and helped , in a big way , shape your modern culture and identity. If the Slavic speaking peoples never showed up in the Balkans its likely that we all would've been Vlachish ( Latin speaking locals) , Hellenized , or one of several Illyrian nations that would exist today , Albs would just be one of them. If you can't understand that and must insist that 'Albanians' stretch the entire Balkan penninsula then you're misinformed and and idiot for believing that.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Oct 15, 2011 9:43:19 GMT -5
^^ I agree with the first part of what you said. That was my point all along
We are not Illyrians just like you just like the old Illyrian tribes were not just like eachother. Each was unique with their own customs while they also shared other customs with Illyrian tribes.
So what if we speak a Slavic language? It doesn't mean all vestiges of Illyrianism are gone. And its really stupid to debate who's 'more Illyrian' since the Illyrians , by name , are pretty much extinct anyway.
We retain a lot of Illyrian customs to this day. Ever heard of Gajde ( Gadjesxi) and Ganga ( Kenga)? This is a cultural staple of Dinaric Croats as well as Albanians.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Oct 15, 2011 9:57:19 GMT -5
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Post by terroreign on Oct 15, 2011 12:48:09 GMT -5
look at this illyro-c*ck-sucking fest. excuse me while i throw up, brb.
lol @ showing krajisniks with serb-hats as "illyrian"
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Oct 15, 2011 21:26:39 GMT -5
There are no 'krajisniks,' They left in the 1990s. I guess they didn't take their 'serb caps' with them .
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Post by plisbardhi on Oct 15, 2011 22:41:58 GMT -5
Priso, you seem to be completely missing my point. I think the thought that Croats are in some way connected to Albanians scares you so much that it blinds you to simple logic. If the Dalmatians survived long enough there is little doubt that they would have been identified as Albanians. And I already showed how Albs are not likely to descend from one Illyrian tribe since Albs inhabited territories belonging to numerous former Illyrian tribes.
Also I don't get the purpose of you stressing Turkish influence over our culture. We adopted certain things from the Ottoman world but it only added on and didn't supplant our native culture. And like I said that doesn't mean anything ethnically. If it did then Albs are a lot more Albanian (medieval Albs) than Croats are Croatian (medieval Croats).
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 18, 2011 14:41:37 GMT -5
Plis, we dont know how much present Albanians are similar to the Illyrians of the past. My guess is: they are not similar. Even if we assume that u kept the Illyrian language (even though some linguists link your language to Thracian or/and Daco-Thracian language), you can not overlook centuries of foreign influence from Romans (mainly), Greeks, Bulgarians and other people. This deffinately changed your language, culture, lifestyle. Almost the same happened with your northern brothers, but they were also slavisized.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 18, 2011 14:59:51 GMT -5
objectively speaking, the most likely candidates for the shqip's ancestors (if they are native) would be the thracians, since their language is sentum, and their cradle being the southern Shkumbin river and further east...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 19, 2011 2:40:46 GMT -5
^ Could be Krivo, their Satem language makes them an eastern mob. Resuli believes that his Shqip ancestors migrate through modern Romania, picking up on the way some vulgar latin lexicons then settling around the Shkumbini river in the 11th/12th centuries. Then others believe the Shqip ancestors migrate through Asia Minor, considering names like Dardenelles etc....
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