Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 31, 2011 12:37:32 GMT -5
Pyrros does make a point..I have seen it many times the disorganization that goes on in Greece.My uncle is a retired priest who gets 1700 e a month.. his daughter is a kindergarden teacher that makes close to 2000e... working in a small village..my question is why they make so much... they should be making half... Greece is broken and it needs fixin. at least they worked/work and get paid. Look here : www.newsbeast.gr/financial/arthro/252118/okto-dis-euro-kostizoun-oi-maimou-sudaxeis-/8 billion euros is the cost of the "monkey" pensions, during the last 10 years. (monkey pension = pension of dead ppl, or people who do not deserve it)
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Post by missanthropology58 on Oct 31, 2011 16:12:36 GMT -5
Pyrros does make a point..I have seen it many times the disorganization that goes on in Greece.My uncle is a retired priest who gets 1700 e a month.. his daughter is a kindergarden teacher that makes close to 2000e... working in a small village..my question is why they make so much... they should be making half... Greece is broken and it needs fixin. at least they worked/work and get paid. Look here : www.newsbeast.gr/financial/arthro/252118/okto-dis-euro-kostizoun-oi-maimou-sudaxeis-/8 billion euros is the cost of the "monkey" pensions, during the last 10 years. (monkey pension = pension of dead ppl, or people who do not deserve it) That and the hordes who immigrate to Europe
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Post by ulf on Oct 31, 2011 18:58:14 GMT -5
Poverty is state of mind and lack of willpower.
For as long as I know of Greece existence trough history it was plunders, falling into crisis etc, but in the end always managed to pull out so it will this time. A big problem of every Balkan nation(not just Greece) is because they are too relaxed about their lives and act as if all of their problems will be solved out if they go in richer country or else they whine about their poor destiny(not every person of course, but average person). Like someone said before me here all this because of zero planing in advance, actually no plan at all. Everyone awaits miracle from the sky.
Even ancient Babylonians knew how to handle household finance(as that's where from it all starts; and to those who doesn't know read "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George Samuel Clason, for starters) so why the more sophisticated man, with all the technology we possess today, wouldn't.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Oct 31, 2011 19:00:10 GMT -5
Everyday..............i'm shuffin'.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 31, 2011 23:54:49 GMT -5
Poverty is state of mind and lack of willpower. For as long as I know of Greece existence trough history it was plunders, falling into crisis etc, but in the end always managed to pull out so it will this time. A big problem of every Balkan nation(not just Greece) is because they are too relaxed about their lives and act as if all of their problems will be solved out if they go in richer country or else they whine about their poor destiny(not every person of course, but average person). Like someone said before me here all this because of zero planing in advance, actually no plan at all. Everyone awaits miracle from the sky. Even ancient Babylonians knew how to handle household finance(as that's where from it all starts; and to those who doesn't know read "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George Samuel Clason, for starters) so why the more sophisticated man, with all the technology we possess today, wouldn't. it is not so simple. there is a reason why intelligent ppl (like my boss) act so freaking stupid. this has to do with tribal memories of the past. This is the core essence of the Orient vs West. We are a truly oriental nation. We belong to england for about 200 years (since they liberated us) and they have done nothing to make this nation a respectable, worthy and competitive player. They always installed the worse leaders, and only cared about telling lies than actually the truth. The same techniques they applied to ex-yugoslavia, putting down the previous civilized elite and bringing to power complete villagers (izetbegovic, tudzman, etc...) And all this of course under the pretension of democracy. Our balkan nations can excel only with totalitarian systems. Dictatorship for non-Slavs (Greece/Turkey), hard core Communism for Slavs. Its the only way.
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Post by ulf on Nov 1, 2011 18:13:36 GMT -5
Poverty is state of mind and lack of willpower. For as long as I know of Greece existence trough history it was plunders, falling into crisis etc, but in the end always managed to pull out so it will this time. A big problem of every Balkan nation(not just Greece) is because they are too relaxed about their lives and act as if all of their problems will be solved out if they go in richer country or else they whine about their poor destiny(not every person of course, but average person). Like someone said before me here all this because of zero planing in advance, actually no plan at all. Everyone awaits miracle from the sky. Even ancient Babylonians knew how to handle household finance(as that's where from it all starts; and to those who doesn't know read "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George Samuel Clason, for starters) so why the more sophisticated man, with all the technology we possess today, wouldn't. it is not so simple. there is a reason why intelligent ppl (like my boss) act so freaking stupid. this has to do with tribal memories of the past. This is the core essence of the Orient vs West. We are a truly oriental nation. We belong to england for about 200 years (since they liberated us) and they have done nothing to make this nation a respectable, worthy and competitive player. They always installed the worse leaders, and only cared about telling lies than actually the truth. The same techniques they applied to ex-yugoslavia, putting down the previous civilized elite and bringing to power complete villagers (izetbegovic, tudzman, etc...) And all this of course under the pretension of democracy. Our balkan nations can excel only with totalitarian systems. Dictatorship for non-Slavs (Greece/Turkey), hard core Communism for Slavs. Its the only way. Its not as simple as I said, but neither as you. Its somewhere in between. I mean, just look. Your comment is good case of the story I am trying to present here. I see people who tries to blame other faction for underdevelopment of their own as people who have low self-esteem, and as long as this is the case we are going to be sh*thole of Europe(the whole Balkan, not just Serbia or Greece or other country). Another huge problem for the people here is lack of commitment and determination to help their own friends, neighbours(really sad, but also true and I don't neglect it) and so on it reflects on national level. The government, weather you like it or not, is no different from the people they rule over
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 1, 2011 23:53:20 GMT -5
^^^ Sad to hear, but i had the impression that at least Serbs showed a big degree of solidarity among each other, and make friends/talk to each other easier than greeks. If this is so bad, then i guess whole western campaign worked.
Was is it like that before the 90s?
i mean, i have made Serb friends in the most unusual occasions : - some security guards in Nis - a random fellow while waiting in Serbia-Hungary border (talking for hours about philisophy, politics, etc...) - random ladies in autobuska stanica (talking for hours) - random ppl helping me while i had my arm broken - random dude in Brcko (Bosna) at the flea market
and the list goes on...
so can you give a concrete example of "help"? you mean smth to do with money?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Nov 2, 2011 9:31:09 GMT -5
Poverty is state of mind and lack of willpower. For as long as I know of Greece existence trough history it was plunders, falling into crisis etc, but in the end always managed to pull out so it will this time. A big problem of every Balkan nation(not just Greece) is because they are too relaxed about their lives and act as if all of their problems will be solved out if they go in richer country or else they whine about their poor destiny(not every person of course, but average person). Like someone said before me here all this because of zero planing in advance, actually no plan at all. Everyone awaits miracle from the sky. Even ancient Babylonians knew how to handle household finance(as that's where from it all starts; and to those who doesn't know read "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George Samuel Clason, for starters) so why the more sophisticated man, with all the technology we possess today, wouldn't. Poverty is also relative and subjective. A person in poverty in a developed country like the United States is not exactly like a person in poverty in Tanzania. If we compared the American living in poverty to the Tanzanian the American would be far more rich in comparison. He probably has an old house or dank apartment and some beater car with a minimum wage job but compared to the Tanzanian he's still got electricity , running water , a local grocer , and fresh neccessities he can still afford as opposed to not eating for days. If all else fails order from the value menu from a KFC or some fast food drive thru . I agree with you in large part ulf. This is particularly apparent among many 'Yugonostalgics' from our region. Almost all of them lost something after the break up of Yugoslavia in terms of living standards. They might have had large houses before , might have only worked 20 hours a week but made a comparative wage of 40 hours, long vacations , and little risk of firing. Or they worked in the state somewhere. A lot of these perks have dissapeared or went to others in the successor states with different political goals. Basically they want something for nothing and when they are required to work its considered bad and unjust. I can't speak for the rest of the region but I can speak for Croatia to some extent and I'm sure its the same throughout the whole region. Croatians are lost when it comes to taking control of their own lives. What I mean is that Croatia has a very large , bloated , and corrupt government which goes hand and hand with all its wasteful spending and ever increasing taxes , tarrifs , and money schemes of the sort. Croatians just flock some politician that can play on their heartstrings whether it be some glorious rhetoric about national pride or some empty promises of 'employing everyone.' They just expect the state to 'fix itself' and to give people things ( without thinking that these resources are not free but being forcefully taken from other citizens.) Tudjman's government was atrocious when it came to economic policy. Tudjman from day one was a huge money waster and his government destroyed a lot of work not only for minorities but primarily Croats as well. He could divert and obscure criticisms from his government ( which is was very much socialist inspired only on a nationalist platform) by blaming minorities and foreigners ( i.e. Serbs) for all of Croatia's woes but when the Serbs were finally delt with CROATIA STILL HAD PROBLEMS! Croatia's government is a continuation of the old order in almost every respect its just that power was switched from Yugoslavian mafia dons that merely changed their little flag insignias on their monkey suites from Yugoslav to Croatian. Crooks are crooks no matter what flag they operate under. The only way you can have rational planning and be able to take calculated risks for the chance of producing the technology and goods to advance is if you do business in an environment where you can have the opportunity to have a postiive savings without worrying about it being squandered by force. These conditions are fastly evaporating almost everywhere because of reasons far too long to illuminate but the first culprit would be the threat of violence via states. I know this is getting a little deep but at least consider it.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Nov 2, 2011 9:42:15 GMT -5
I would bet that if people were allowed to keep more of their earnings they would be far more open to helping one and another with the surplus. There is historical evidence for this which I can present in a dedicated post.
But no , the state insists that people will never help other unless they are forced to so it shacks its citizens down for the money to 'help the poor.' Isn't it absurd? I mean ESPECIALLY in a democracy, right? Think about it. In theory a democracy has people vote directly or through representatives on policies for something the majority wants.... If the democratic government is shacking down people via taxes to 'help the poor' then it must mean that majority voted in favor of this? My question is , why then do you need a state to distribute the welfare? I mean if the majority would vote to have it happen why go through the extra step of a state doing it? They would just do it on their own right? Furthermore , why has the billions of dollars the states have collect STILL NOT HELPED THE POOR! Think about it this way, a government ( or government sector) 'dedicated to eliminating poverty' would actually NEVER want to eliminate poverty. If they did , they would be out of a job. No , its far more economical to create a PERMINANT underclass of people utterly dependent on state largess so that the people in power can stay in power and have the support of their dependents to do it!
This goes into your last comment , ulf , which is absolutely correct ; the people in government are still just people like you and I and they are motivated by profit. The only difference is that you and I have to actually produce something to get something where they just take what other people have produced by gunpoint.
I'm gonna QFT your last comment because people should read and really understand it:
^ I would only add that while they are still no different than us as human beings they have a legal monopoly to use force against us to get what they want but we don't have that right.
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Post by srbobran on Nov 2, 2011 10:55:48 GMT -5
Really interesting post Prijosanin (and Ulf), you sound exactly like my brother. Got me thinking.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 2, 2011 12:48:28 GMT -5
^^^ you guys are ridiculous.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 2, 2011 12:52:10 GMT -5
^^^ Sad to hear, but i had the impression that at least Serbs showed a big degree of solidarity among each other, and make friends/talk to each other easier than greeks. If this is so bad, then i guess whole western campaign worked. Was is it like that before the 90s? i mean, i have made Serb friends in the most unusual occasions : - some security guards in Nis - a random fellow while waiting in Serbia-Hungary border (talking for hours about philisophy, politics, etc...) - random ladies in autobuska stanica (talking for hours) - random ppl helping me while i had my arm broken - random dude in Brcko (Bosna) at the flea market and the list goes on... so can you give a concrete example of "help"? you mean smth to do with money? There's people like that everywhere.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Nov 2, 2011 12:54:16 GMT -5
Really interesting post Prijosanin (and Ulf), you sound exactly like my brother. Got me thinking. That's the goal , brother. All of us need to do a little more thinking instead of taking meelymouth explanations for this or that as gospel. You're a sharp kid and I think you already see through some of this fog.
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Post by ulf on Nov 2, 2011 16:00:57 GMT -5
^^^ Sad to hear, but i had the impression that at least Serbs showed a big degree of solidarity among each other, and make friends/talk to each other easier than greeks. If this is so bad, then i guess whole western campaign worked. Was is it like that before the 90s? i mean, i have made Serb friends in the most unusual occasions : - some security guards in Nis - a random fellow while waiting in Serbia-Hungary border (talking for hours about philisophy, politics, etc...) - random ladies in autobuska stanica (talking for hours) - random ppl helping me while i had my arm broken - random dude in Brcko (Bosna) at the flea market and the list goes on... so can you give a concrete example of "help"? you mean smth to do with money? Well, I am going to give you 2 examples This told me a friend from Sokobanja region. Three years back there was big flood near Sokobanja(can't remember if it was Morava or some other river). All the households who were near river were affected. Three years later no one did a thing. Ok, I really wouldn't expect from government to help(they never do), but I expect some kind of agreement between those people who live there to help their neighbours - in sense to spare some of their free time helping the owners of those houses to fix those wet, rotten parts of house. It wasn't the case. Another case was earthquake in Kraljevo 1 year ago. There was organized exibition basketball game here in Belgrade organized by a Serbian basketball federation in Pionir hall. Just 500 people were present in hall which can accept 7500 people. The ticket price was really low and the game started in adequate time(I believe in around 20:00), and it was promoted at national TV. It turned to be total and utter fail in the end.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 3, 2011 0:11:30 GMT -5
There's people like that everywhere. In France/Germany/UK/Albania/Greece -> no. i guess in USA, people are better, i believe this.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 3, 2011 11:27:59 GMT -5
There's people like that everywhere. In France/Germany/UK/Albania/Greece -> no. i guess in USA, people are better, i believe this. I can't talk about Greek women but the men are pretty darn friendly to me and vice versa As for the other countries Roma Kaput I agree.
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