Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 10, 2011 0:19:08 GMT -5
That's quite low coming from you, Chentovist. You were trying to be more balanced and to present a fuller picture of past events. Regarding the story behind this feeble and tasteless attempt of Macedonist propaganda: The football club " Makedonija" from Skopje played during the war in the Bulgarian league, in one geographical group with clubs from Sofia, such as "Levski", the best club in pre-war Bulgaria. "Makedonija" performed very well and they almost became champions of Bulgaria after some epic games against Levski!, but the unfair refereeing gave advantage to "Levski". Now, consider this: - The Skopjean club "Makedonija" was created by the Bulgarian authorities in 1941, after coming to power in Skopje! There was NO "Makedonija" in the decade BEFORE the war, as for the Serbian authorities this land was judt "Southern Serbia", "Vardarska Banovina". It was under the "ghastly fascist occupiers" when Skopjani were allowed to chant "Makedonija! Makedonija!". (Another "Makedonija" club was also created by the Bulgarians in Bitola.) Have a look at this video - Vasil Dilev, The Last Living Player of FC Macedonia , and have a look at the Sofia newspapers from 1941-1942 and their reports of the "Makedonija"-"Levski" games - www.levskifc.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=248to see that the play and the players of "Makedonija" were admired by everybody and that the Bulgarian newspapers hailed the players as "the best sons of the Macedonian land". - also consider that after the war, "Makedonija" dissapeared, i.e. the new Yugo-Macedonian authorities renamed it into "Vardar" (after joining it with another local club). Yes, "Vardar" was the mightiest yugomacedonian club, until very recently, but doesn't it make you wonder why it got renamed with this "geographically more neutral" name, after the river of Vardar, eh?... - the coach of "Makedonija", a Hungarian Jew, was indeed to be sent to the Nazi camps, but the Bulgarian mayor of Skopje, Kitinchev, a local lawyer btw, intervened and saved him. After the war Kitinchev was shot by the invaders, by the Titoist gangs, who took the power, as "a fascist". - leaked pictures from the filming of the Macedonian film "Third Halftime" (sponsored heavily by the government of Gruevski!!) show the Bulgarian flag flying over the concentration camp (Treblinka?) where the poor Macedonian Jews are shipped for extermination. A Bulgarian flag flying over a German camp in Poland!? Such historical frivolity, if confirmed in the final release of the movie, is amazing and you could expect a responce, on governmental level, from Bulgaria, and not just from some MEPs. FK Vardar was founded in 22.07.1947 with the merger of the city rivals FK Pobeda and FK Makedonija. Your point makes no sense when the Yugo-Mak authorities were codifiying the MACEDONIAN language, and the MACEDONIAN Orthodox Church was obtaining it's independence, and the Socialist Republic of MACEDONIA was being formed...
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Post by kroraina on Nov 11, 2011 8:50:06 GMT -5
FK Vardar was founded in 22.07.1947 with the merger of the city rivals FK Pobeda and FK Makedonija. right... So in 1941-42 the crowds were chanting "Makedonija" and Bulg. newspapers were calling the players "Makedonci" (Macedonians), but in 1947 it became "Vardar" and the players had to be called " Vardarci" (Vardarians)... Now repeat after me: "Vardarians", "Vardarians", "Were are Vardarians", "Our country is called Vardarska.. whatever -(Vardarska Bananovina, Vardarska Serbia)". don't play a fool with us. Your linguistic commissions which had the task of codifying the new language, had to travel to Belgrade and to consult three times with your Serbian overlords, and to make repeated changes to the Mac alphabet in order to get their approval. These facts cannot be easily swept under the mat. yeah, right. So some Communists, militant atheists as they are, created a church, a genuine orthodox church!? By some divine inspiration no doubt. Their actions were probably guided by God himself!? But wait a minute, why stop there? Why didn't they create a MACEDONIAN Muslim church? Or MACEDONIAN Buddhist church for that matter? Why, what did the poor Orthodox people do to deserve such a great gift bestowed upon them by the authorities, such a brutal intrusion of the state in their (and theirs only!) spiritual beliefs?
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Post by kroraina on Nov 11, 2011 10:18:31 GMT -5
"Third halftime" is supposedly about a love-story between Kosta, the best striker of FC "Makedonija", and Rebecca, a Jewish girl from Skopje. Now some photos from the shooting of this government-sponsored movie: (The Bulgarian flag flies over the concentration camp Treblinka!) Is there any need to say that this never happened? (Summary executions of Communists or Jews on the streets of Skopje!?) Never happened! Bulgarian and Nazi Germany flags flying together and in great quantity everywhere (at a football stadium?) I won't go into details such a the half-empty stadiums in the last picture. (They were in fact completely full and bursting at their seams, the interest was immense during the games both in Skopje and in Sofia. 210 "Makedonija" fans travelled from Skopje to Sofia in order to support their team, in war-time and along poor, mountainous roads (even nowadays there is still no rail-road).) Reports suggest that the movie treats the Bulgarians as the biggest "Fascists", even more - the Bulgarians are the only ones being called "Fascists". (The Germans breathe a sign of relief here...) Go on guys, continue this way with your Mickey Mouse history and see what will happen...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 13, 2011 5:01:54 GMT -5
"Your point makes no sense when the Yugo-Mak authorities were codifiying the MACEDONIAN language, and the MACEDONIAN Orthodox Church was obtaining it's independence, and the Socialist Republic of MACEDONIA was being formed..."
Its not really independant, its autonomous within the Serbian Orthodox Church!
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Post by Shqipni13 on Nov 13, 2011 5:19:25 GMT -5
^We know, we know the serbs like being in charge of shit that they have no business to be involved in.
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Post by Moe Lester on Nov 13, 2011 5:35:55 GMT -5
Well to be fair, the Macedonian Orthodox Church proclaimed autocephaly and independence in 1967, but it still isn't recognised.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 13, 2011 19:33:21 GMT -5
FK Vardar was founded in 22.07.1947 with the merger of the city rivals FK Pobeda and FK Makedonija. right... So in 1941-42 the crowds were chanting "Makedonija" and Bulg. newspapers were calling the players "Makedonci" (Macedonians), but in 1947 it became "Vardar" and the players had to be called " Vardarci" (Vardarians)... Now repeat after me: "Vardarians", "Vardarians", "Were are Vardarians", "Our country is called Vardarska.. whatever -(Vardarska Bananovina, Vardarska Serbia)". don't play a fool with us. Your linguistic commissions which had the task of codifying the new language, had to travel to Belgrade and to consult three times with your Serbian overlords, and to make repeated changes to the Mac alphabet in order to get their approval. These facts cannot be easily swept under the mat. yeah, right. So some Communists, militant atheists as they are, created a church, a genuine orthodox church!? By some divine inspiration no doubt. Their actions were probably guided by God himself!? But wait a minute, why stop there? Why didn't they create a MACEDONIAN Muslim church? Or MACEDONIAN Buddhist church for that matter? Why, what did the poor Orthodox people do to deserve such a great gift bestowed upon them by the authorities, such a brutal intrusion of the state in their (and theirs only!) spiritual beliefs? you are missing the point. Macedonians were creating a MACEDONIAN republic, not a 'vardarian' republic, so again your point is not valid. As for the MOC, would you have preferred we remained part of the Serbian Church? I guess you support Bishop Jovan in his efforts to bring this about??
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 13, 2011 20:02:14 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure you're gettin the point..
But then again, maybe you're 'cuz this is it right here.. your quote.
No need to twist things around. It's great that you guys have an independent church, and an independent country. No one wants to take these things away from you.
All we're looking for is an accurate depiction of history, without the purposeful political misinterpretations of your government.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 13, 2011 21:00:46 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure you're gettin the point.. But then again, maybe you're 'cuz this is it right here.. your quote. No need to twist things around. It's great that you guys have an independent church, and an independent country. No one wants to take these things away from you. All we're looking for is an accurate depiction of history, without the purposeful political misinterpretations of your government. accurate history? well let's try; WW1 - Bulgaria member of Central Powers alliance WW2 - Bulgaria member of Axis alliance Which part is not accurate here??
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Post by kroraina on Nov 14, 2011 5:23:06 GMT -5
you are missing the point. Macedonians were creating a MACEDONIAN republic, not a 'vardarian' republic, so again your point is not valid. No, my point is valid. Your Macedonian republic has never behaved as such. Your policy and, it seems, even reason of existance, even nowdays, is to aleviate the problems of your "Big brother", Serbia. you know that the Serbian church had no "tapias", no rightful documents for ownership of the churches in Macedonia after the WWI conquest. BTW, your Communist Mac-church doesn't have the right "tapias" either.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 14, 2011 5:32:22 GMT -5
accurate history? well let's try; WW1 - Bulgaria member of Central Powers alliance WW2 - Bulgaria member of Axis alliance Which part is not accurate here?? and in order to be even more accurate: WW1 - most of Macedonia, i.e. most of its Slavic population (those following the Bulgarian Exharchate) + most of its Muslim population (Turks & Albanians, following the Sultan in Constantinople) - also members of the Central Powers WW2 - Macedonia was de facto a member of the Axis, until the autumn of 1944 (just like Bulgaria). Most of the consripts of the Bulgarian army stationed in Macedonia were local Macedonians. Towns like Skopje and Bitola were bombed by the Anglo-American airforce, just like Sofia in Bulgaria. Now back to the FC "Makedonija" and their games with "Levski". I wonder whether your new movie "Third halftime" will show the beginning of the games: And just to make it clearer: - the letter "M" on their shirts stands for FC "Makedonija"...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 14, 2011 10:38:48 GMT -5
you know that the Serbian church had no "tapias", no rightful documents for ownership of the churches in Macedonia after the WWI conquest. BTW, your Communist Mac-church doesn't have the right "tapias" either. Funny, since the style of Mak churches are *definitely* more close to the Serbian one (heavy use of granite instead of marble, black roofs instead of redish ones, etc...) Some Bulgarian churches remind me of Russian (Alex Nevski), others remind me of Greek (Sv. Nedelja). OTOH, Mak churches seem like totally Serbian. I am not a professional architect or anything, but i guess anyone can witness what i am saying.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 14, 2011 11:22:02 GMT -5
^ STFU
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 14, 2011 14:54:42 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt you guys, I don't hate any of our neighbours. I consider them all fellow Balkanians, but I do stand up for my nation and people. I am on the side of Macedonia, when it comes to any anti-Macedonian (whether they are Serb, Bulgar, Greek or Albanian) argument. As I've said before modern Macedonian DNA is a combination of Slav and pre-Slav elements. I am not a Macedonian who denies their Slavic past. I do however, also celebrate our non-Slav past. You still dont get it do you. If thats the case start taking Greek lessons my friend because currently there are a people to the south of you that already represent Macedonia's pre - Slav past.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 14, 2011 18:50:57 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt you guys, I don't hate any of our neighbours. I consider them all fellow Balkanians, but I do stand up for my nation and people. I am on the side of Macedonia, when it comes to any anti-Macedonian (whether they are Serb, Bulgar, Greek or Albanian) argument. As I've said before modern Macedonian DNA is a combination of Slav and pre-Slav elements. I am not a Macedonian who denies their Slavic past. I do however, also celebrate our non-Slav past. You still dont get it do you. If thats the case start taking Greek lessons my friend because currently there are a people to the south of you that already represent Macedonia's pre - Slav past. Your gov't should also allow them to learn their Slavic past and language.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 14, 2011 18:53:50 GMT -5
accurate history? well let's try; WW1 - Bulgaria member of Central Powers alliance WW2 - Bulgaria member of Axis alliance Which part is not accurate here?? and in order to be even more accurate: WW1 - most of Macedonia, i.e. most of its Slavic population (those following the Bulgarian Exharchate) + most of its Muslim population (Turks & Albanians, following the Sultan in Constantinople) - also members of the Central Powers WW2 - Macedonia was de facto a member of the Axis, until the autumn of 1944 (just like Bulgaria). Most of the consripts of the Bulgarian army stationed in Macedonia were local Macedonians. Towns like Skopje and Bitola were bombed by the Anglo-American airforce, just like Sofia in Bulgaria. Now back to the FC "Makedonija" and their games with "Levski". I wonder whether your new movie "Third halftime" will show the beginning of the games: And just to make it clearer: - the letter "M" on their shirts stands for FC "Makedonija"... Macedonia was occupied by Bulgaria in both wars, and the local inhabitants were drafted into the army. This happens in all occupied territories. As for WW2 - the tables turned against you; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_War_of_MacedoniaR. Macedonia and the Allies illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=makedonijamacedonia&action=display&thread=34227
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 15, 2011 4:08:22 GMT -5
You still dont get it do you. If thats the case start taking Greek lessons my friend because currently there are a people to the south of you that already represent Macedonia's pre - Slav past. Your gov't should also allow them to learn their Slavic past and language. Now why should the government get involved in anything like that ? As if we dont have enough things to do nowadays with the global economy crisis. Who would be next, the Albanians or Vlachs ? It is up to themselves to know their past and language. Not to our politicians. We have no problem, you can see many festivals in Greece dances, newspapers, etc. This is actually a non-issue.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 15, 2011 6:57:05 GMT -5
lol, aziz, speechless again? oh no!!!
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 15, 2011 7:00:41 GMT -5
Your gov't should also allow them to learn their Slavic past and language. Now why should the government get involved in anything like that ? As if we dont have enough things to do nowadays with the global economy crisis. Who would be next, the Albanians or Vlachs ? It is up to themselves to know their past and language. Not to our politicians. We have no problem, you can see many festivals in Greece dances, newspapers, etc. This is actually a non-issue. non issue ok, but the time the money stops coming from England (the great *real* master of EU) then suddenly many Vlahs will start seeking romanian schools, and many Slavs makedonian or bulgarian schools. We are the only country in the balkans with so much bastardized population and history but with virtually .... no minorities.... i don't think its fair to the rest of the balkans.... Serbs always respected Czechs, Slovaks, Rusinis, Bulgarians (all of them Slavic) and Hungarians and what did they get? bombs.... And still get targeted as the nazis of the balkans....
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 15, 2011 9:04:32 GMT -5
I dont think minorities are espescially usefull Pyrros. If they have countries of their own, then they should go back if they want to have their own schools and what not. Its not up to us to have our taxes supporting their extracurricular activities. They are in Greece and most of their kin have already been assimlated by us. What would be the point at this time, now, after so many years to teach them who they are. I would say Greece has a strong assimilation policy and I dont necessarily mean forcefull either (although Im sure Il hear about that as well). Taking aside "forcefull" assimilation I have seen so many immigrants that "Self - Assiilate " to our ethnos willingly. We have a talent for that. Even married couples, if one isnt Greek, they usually turn out to be sooner or later And its ok.
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