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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 19, 2011 17:17:52 GMT -5
^ Ulf, l'm amazed this BuLgarin is lying to you with a straight face. His trying to tell you that the words *On* and *Toj* are mutually interchangable, they are natural Bulgarian personal pronouns, a person from pure Bulgaro-Turk region of Varna would use *On* or *Toj* whenever they please.
PS Where ever they say *Bugarin* instead of *BuLgarin* your dealing with an ex-serbian population, for Serbs don't have Turkish accents.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 19, 2011 17:58:11 GMT -5
"Az" is used everywhere, by everyone. "Ya" is obviously intelligible, but hardly ever used by anyone. I'm from Plovdiv and my family roots come from surrounding villages where I've spent some time as a child. I've heard the use of "Ya", however, it has never been in a serious conversation.
Truthfully, and I'm ashamed to admit this, Bulgarians speaking in dialects that are not the standard are sometimes made fun of and possibly even looked down upon. The Macedonian dialect, for example, is sometimes viewed as a "village" dialect. This could possible be because the older generations that still live in the villages use much of the same words as people in Macedonia would use. On the other hand, the mainstream Bulgarian language seems to have evolved in a different direction, most probably due to the Russian influences on it during communism.
One example is the word "where". In standard Macedonian, in political life, academic circles etc. the word is "deka". This is a word many people in Bulgaria from the generations of my grandparents still use, at least in the Plovdiv region. The word, again, is intelligible to everyone. However, the official "proper" Bulgarian word to use these days is "kade". If a politician or any high ranking figure is to use "deka" instead of "kade", he may possibly be viewed as a "simpleton". If I use the word "deka" my friends will most probably joke about it by saying something along the lines of "Don't speak like a villager."
I'm not one to be giving linguistic lessons in Bulgarian/Macedonia as I've only studied there up until grade 5, but what I wrote above is how I remember it.
The word in Bulgarian colloquial terms is not "On", it's "On-ya".
No one in Bulgaria says "Bugarin", not in Western Bulgaria, not in Pirin Macedonia. The word is B'lgarin (Българин).
As for R. Macedonia, I'd say that this is due to recent Serbian influences when it was a crime punishable by imprisonment, beatings, exile, and even death to identify as Bulgarian. In R. Macedonia, a self identification of being Bulgarian would bring you a lot of hardship.. even today.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 19, 2011 18:35:39 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 19, 2011 18:41:38 GMT -5
The Serbian Torlakians of Bugarska: - The personal pronouns for the third person are masc. on (он), fem. ona (она); neut. ono (оно), pl. oni (они).- Serbian ethnographer Jovan Cvijić, at the Peace Conference in Paris, showed a study where he divided the Shopluk into three groups, Serbs, mixed population, and a group closer to Bulgarians. He also emphasized on the Serb tradition of Slava being an important cultural marker.- The Shopluk is a so called meso region en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShopiWell, well, well Ivo, a good chunk of Bugarska is so Serbian, isn't it, hence the Ottoman authories during 15/16th centuries assigning the Shop regions to the Patriarchate of PECH (Kosovo i Metohija) as their spiritual homeland
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 20, 2011 1:20:44 GMT -5
Well if you're going to quote me a Serbian ethnographer, then it must be true.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 20, 2011 4:42:23 GMT -5
^ no, wikipedia quoted him, l'm just showing you the obvious
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 20, 2011 21:27:56 GMT -5
"Az" is used everywhere, by everyone. "Ya" is obviously intelligible, but hardly ever used by anyone. I'm from Plovdiv and my family roots come from surrounding villages where I've spent some time as a child. I've heard the use of "Ya", however, it has never been in a serious conversation. Truthfully, and I'm ashamed to admit this, Bulgarians speaking in dialects that are not the standard are sometimes made fun of and possibly even looked down upon. The Macedonian dialect, for example, is sometimes viewed as a "village" dialect. This could possible be because the older generations that still live in the villages use much of the same words as people in Macedonia would use. On the other hand, the mainstream Bulgarian language seems to have evolved in a different direction, most probably due to the Russian influences on it during communism. One example is the word "where". In standard Macedonian, in political life, academic circles etc. the word is "deka". This is a word many people in Bulgaria from the generations of my grandparents still use, at least in the Plovdiv region. The word, again, is intelligible to everyone. However, the official "proper" Bulgarian word to use these days is "kade". If a politician or any high ranking figure is to use "deka" instead of "kade", he may possibly be viewed as a "simpleton". If I use the word "deka" my friends will most probably joke about it by saying something along the lines of "Don't speak like a villager." I'm not one to be giving linguistic lessons in Bulgarian/Macedonia as I've only studied there up until grade 5, but what I wrote above is how I remember it. The word in Bulgarian colloquial terms is not "On", it's "On-ya". No one in Bulgaria says "Bugarin", not in Western Bulgaria, not in Pirin Macedonia. The word is B'lgarin (Българин). As for R. Macedonia, I'd say that this is due to recent Serbian influences when it was a crime punishable by imprisonment, beatings, exile, and even death to identify as Bulgarian. In R. Macedonia, a self identification of being Bulgarian would bring you a lot of hardship.. even today. Actually in Macedonian 'deka' means 'because', and 'kade' means 'where'.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 20, 2011 21:36:29 GMT -5
Exactly what I am telling him. Ohrid nowadays is very Slavic city and through the history its been noted by Byzantines and some Western travelers that most Byzantines(and so natives as well) left this place upon it fell under Slavic reign The Slavs had no connections to the area, and Im not one to believe the slavic character of the area happened willingly. By the time the Avars / Slavs reached the balkans the natives of Macedonia were hardly something of the Macedonians of Antiquity. Chento is forgetting Rome and other factors that have seriously altered the demographic character in the region. And even if we are to believe that nothing happened all of this time, he would just have to accept that he has Greek blood in him. Best case scenario. Its like me going to someone's house, beating the crap out them, displacing them, and then taking on their identity and saying: "hey, its all good, everybody intermingles with each other. Im really just an extended part of the guy's family" There never was a Macedonian of an ethnic character. Up until the 20th century it has always been used as a geographic reference that ended up taking an ethnic meaning only of late. Its their right to feel this way, but that doesnt mean I have to buy their story... I'm not forgetting Rome, or even the Gothic invasions. We are a product of the intermingling of the pre-Slav peoples (whatever their origins) and the Slav tribes. The people have called themselves Macedonians (in a geographic and/or ethnic sense) for centuries.
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Post by Moe Lester on Nov 20, 2011 23:59:50 GMT -5
Do Macedonians say "Az" for "yes" like the Bulgarians?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 21, 2011 0:07:24 GMT -5
Do Macedonians say "Az" for "yes" like the Bulgarians? No Macedonians say 'Da' for yes. However I believe Bulgarians say 'Az' for 'me' or 'i', and Macedonians say 'Jas/Yas' and Serbs say 'Ja/Ya'.
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Post by Moe Lester on Nov 21, 2011 0:10:52 GMT -5
My mistake. Also, which is Macedonian closer to; Serbian or Bulgarian.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 21, 2011 0:19:03 GMT -5
Macedonian practically is a Bulgarian dialect or Bulgarian is a Macedonian dialect... There is a Serbian influence on Macedonian, but its only recent phenomenon thats why its only influence on the lexic (the easiest to aquire). The grammer is the same. The language would ve been the same if we were in one state. Bulgarian and Macedonian are Southeastern Slavic languages while Serbo-croatian is southwestern Slavic language.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 21, 2011 0:42:08 GMT -5
My mistake. Also, which is Macedonian closer to; Serbian or Bulgarian. As a Macedonian I find both Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian equally intelligible.
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Post by Moe Lester on Nov 21, 2011 1:03:41 GMT -5
Really? But it has to be closer to one, it's not like they're equally influenced by each language. Also, I heard some Macedonian nationalists claim they can't understand Bulgarian.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 21, 2011 16:53:02 GMT -5
"Macedonian practically is a Bulgarian dialect or Bulgarian is a Macedonian dialect... There is a Serbian influence on Macedonian, but its only recent phenomenon thats why its only influence on the lexic (the easiest to aquire). The grammer is the same. The language would ve been the same if we were in one state. Bulgarian and Macedonian are Southeastern Slavic languages while Serbo-croatian is southwestern Slavic language."
So then Tito influenced the Pirinski dialect during 1948? or even the Shopluk dialect in 1952?
PS Do you ever notice how stupid you sound?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 21, 2011 18:10:42 GMT -5
Really? But it has to be closer to one, it's not like they're equally influenced by each language. Also, I heard some Macedonian nationalists claim they can't understand Bulgarian. The Macedonian literary language is based on the central Macedonian dialect, which is equally distant/close to Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian. Now if you are from a region closer to the Bulgarian border, the Macedonian dialect approaches Bulgarian. Likewise, the further north you go, the Macedonian dialect approaches Serbian. So probably, those nationalists you refer to may be from Skopje or Kumanovo. I am from Bitola, and so my dialect is the official Macedonian language and so both Bulgarian and Serbian are equal to me. Read some more here; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_languageMacedonian dialects;
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 21, 2011 23:28:08 GMT -5
"Macedonian practically is a Bulgarian dialect or Bulgarian is a Macedonian dialect... There is a Serbian influence on Macedonian, but its only recent phenomenon thats why its only influence on the lexic (the easiest to aquire). The grammer is the same. The language would ve been the same if we were in one state. Bulgarian and Macedonian are Southeastern Slavic languages while Serbo-croatian is southwestern Slavic language." So then Tito influenced the Pirinski dialect during 1948? or even the Shopluk dialect in 1952? PS Do you ever notice how stupid you sound? I could never beat you in stupidity. Neither Shopski, nor Pirinski Bulgarian dialects are as serbanized as the official macedonian language. Lets not forget that in 1913 Serbia got Macedonia and turned it into "Southern Serbia". In this "Southern Serbia" the Bulgarian language of the people was forbidden and Serbian was forcefully introduced. So for 3 decades the official language OF THE STATE in which the macedonians lived was Serbian and the local Bulgarian dialects (at those times) were lexically serbanized. Lexically, because its the easiest way one language influences other.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 22, 2011 5:58:58 GMT -5
^ In Shopski and Pirinski dialects they say on/ona/oni etc.....could this be a result of Tito and his men Serbianising Western Bugarska in 1952?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 22, 2011 6:08:36 GMT -5
Chento, Serbian elements rise when you go further north and further east to Bugarska. Remember Serbs say Ya = l, On = he, Ona = she and Oni = they, not Toj/Ta/Toa or Az and Jas In Pirin region and shopluk region the on/ona/oni is used even 'u' = in, is used instead of vardarian 'vo' and BuLgarski 'v' PS Even when one moves away west from the 'central vardarian dialect' towards Albania, the serbian element again rises with the Mijak and Brsjaci peoples
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 22, 2011 15:53:23 GMT -5
Oh dear, my mistake.
Interesting, linguists have grouped Macedonian as a Bulgarian dialect. Until recent Serbian influences on Macedonian and Russian influences on Bulgarian, the dialects were close enough to be considered one language.
I've also noticed an interesting phenomenon. Here in Toronto, at a Macedonian gathering at the St. Kliment Ohridski church on Overley Blvd.. there was a person from Pirin Macedonia who identified himself as an ethnic Macedonian. He spoke in the exact same way that I speak, and I speak standard Bulgarian.
This ethnic Macedonian from Pirin Macedonia who spoke standard Bulgarian was understood by all Macedonians with hardly any difficulty.
So it appears to me, that even though there are differences in our dialects, whether the listener chooses to "understand" is based on the ethnic identification of the speaker.
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