Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 25, 2011 0:10:07 GMT -5
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 25, 2011 0:16:42 GMT -5
Source it please.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 25, 2011 0:25:54 GMT -5
The sources are shown at the top of the articles. Don't worry, I'll be posting some more stuff soon.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 26, 2011 19:43:48 GMT -5
Aha. And which ethnic group do they mean by 'Macedonians'?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 27, 2011 17:43:50 GMT -5
Aha. And which ethnic group do they mean by 'Macedonians'? Macedonians and no quotation marks are used.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 27, 2011 22:55:55 GMT -5
I get that they were Macedonians, but what was their ethnicity?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 27, 2011 23:07:08 GMT -5
I get that they were Macedonians, but what was their ethnicity? I guess it depends on who you ask. We on the other hand have always been Makedonci...
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2011 0:09:43 GMT -5
"We"? Strangely how you national heroes like Samuel, Goze Delchev etc and other Macedonians that you dont claim like Paisii Hilendarski failed to mention they are "macedonci".
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 28, 2011 0:28:02 GMT -5
"Paisii Hilendarski"
Its only Paisy, do not corrupt the Serbian Monastry by linking it to a BuLgarin. You have your Zoograf, leave Hilendar alone.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 28, 2011 0:31:37 GMT -5
"We"? Strangely how you national heroes like Samuel, Goze Delchev etc and other Macedonians that you dont claim like Paisii Hilendarski failed to mention they are "macedonci". i'm sure you can read the quote below:
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Post by kroraina on Nov 28, 2011 5:16:17 GMT -5
"Paisii Hilendarski" Its only Paisy, do not corrupt the Serbian Monastry by linking it to a Bu Lgarin. You have your Zoograf, leave Hilendar alone. Ahah, ignorance at its best/worst... - NO, it is Paisij Hilendarski (his brother - Lavrentij Hilendarski, was even the egoumen of the monastery, and - NO, Hilendar was predominantly Bulgarian monastery in the XVII-XIX c., until 1902, when with the Ottoman "help" (i.e. brutal physical and administrative force, chasing away the Bulgarian monks) it was handed to the Serbs. (BTW, Hilendar was probably founded in the X c., by a monk called Georgiou Hilendarious. The Serbs just renovated it in the XII c., by Rostislav, son of Stephan Nemanja.)
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 28, 2011 10:56:14 GMT -5
Here it is necessary to make the distinction between the regional Macedonian identity and the ethnic Macedonian identity.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2011 12:32:27 GMT -5
[quote author=chentovist board=makedonijamacedonia thread=34480 post=322410 time=1322458297i'm sure you can read the quote below: [/quote] this is misquoted. He meant that the Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks that lived in Macedonia should act in the interest of the REGION and not their respective native country. At his time the term Macedonian meant regional identification, not national as Ivo has pointed out.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2011 12:49:05 GMT -5
In general, an autonomous status was presumed to imply a special kind of constitution of the region, a reorganization of gendarmerie, broader representation of the local Christian population in it as well as in all the administration, similarly to what happened in the short-lived Eastern Rumelia. However, there was not a clear political agenda behind IMRO's idea about autonomy and its final outcome, after the expected dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.[75] Delcev, like other left-wing activists, vaguely determined the bonds in the future common Macedonian-Adrianopolitan autonomous region on the one hand,[76] and on the other between it, the Principality of Bulgaria, and de facto annexed Eastern Rumelia.[77] Even the possibility that Bulgaria could be absorbed into a future autonomous Macedonia, rather than the reverse, was discussed.[78] It is claimed that the personal view of the convinced republican Delchev,[79] was much more likely to see inclusion in a future Balkan Confederative Republic,[80][81] or eventually an incorporation into Bulgaria.[82][83][84] The both ideas were probably influenced by the views of the founders of the organization.[85] The ideas of a separate Macedonian nation and language were as yet promoted only by small circles of intellectuals in Delchev's time,[86] and failed to gain wide popular support.[87] As a whole the idea of autonomy was strictly political and did not imply a secession from Bulgarian ethnicity.[88] In fact, for militants such as Delchev and other leftists, that participated in the national movement retaining a political outlook, national liberation meant "radical political liberation through shaking off the social shackles".[89] There aren't any indications suggesting his doubt about the Bulgarian ethnic character of the Macedonian Slavs at that time.[90] Delchev also used the Bulgarian standard language, and he was in any way interested in the creation of separate Macedonian language.[91] The Bulgarian ethnic self-identification of Delchev has been recognized às from leading international researchers of the Macedonian Question,[92] as well as from the Macedonian historical scholarship, although reluctantly.[93][94][95] However, despite his Bulgarian loyalty, he was against any chauvinistic propaganda and nationalism.[96] According to him, no outside force could or would help the Organization and it ought to rely only upon itself and only upon its own will and strength.[97] He thoutht that any intervention by Bulgaria would provoke intervention by the neighbouring states as well, and could result in Macedonia and Thrace being torn apart. That is why the peoples inhabited these two regions had themselves, to win their own freedom, within the frontiers of an autonomous Macedonian-Adrianople state.[98] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotse_DelchevIn a conversations in 1900, with Lozengrad comrades, he was asked whether, in the event of a rising, the Organization should count on help from the Bulgarian Principality, and whether it would not be wiser at the outset to proclaim the union of Macedonia and Thrace with the Principality, Gotse replied: "We have to work courageously, organizing and arming ourselves well enough to take the burden of the struggle upon our own shoulders, without counting on outside help. External intervention is not desirable from the point of view of our cause. Our aim, our ideal is autonomy for Macedonia and the Adrianople region, and we must also bring into the struggle the other peoples who live in these two provinces as well... We, the Bulgarians of Macedonia and Adrianople, must not lose sight of the fact that there are other nationalities and states who are vitally interested in the solution of this questions". Ïðèíîñè êúì èñòîðèÿòà íà âúñòàíè÷åñêîòî äâèæåíèå â Îäðèíñêî (1895–1903), ò. IV, Áóðãàñ – 1941.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 28, 2011 21:03:24 GMT -5
"The ideas of a separate Macedonian nation and language were as yet promoted only by small circles of intellectuals in Delchev's time"
That's because the Macedonians did not have a state structure to support schools, churches, etc. We were invaded by propaganda from Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria and their combined education, religious and later armed incursions. We have only had our own state institutions since WWII.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2011 21:15:01 GMT -5
"The ideas of a separate Macedonian nation and language were as yet promoted only by small circles of intellectuals in Delchev's time" That's because the Macedonians did not have a state structure to support schools, churches, etc. We were invaded by propaganda from Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria and their combined education, religious and later armed incursions. We have only had our own state institutions since WWII. the point is that most of the Macedonians had Bulgarian consciousness, NOT Serbian or Greek one. And there is a reason for it: same language, culture, traditions... It was only due to Serbian politics (which supported macedonism) that such idea existed at all. Goze Delechev also had Bulgarian selfidentification.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 28, 2011 21:31:56 GMT -5
"The ideas of a separate Macedonian nation and language were as yet promoted only by small circles of intellectuals in Delchev's time" That's because the Macedonians did not have a state structure to support schools, churches, etc. We were invaded by propaganda from Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria and their combined education, religious and later armed incursions. We have only had our own state institutions since WWII. the point is that most of the Macedonians had Bulgarian consciousness, NOT Serbian or Greek one. And there is a reason for it: same language, culture, traditions... It was only due to Serbian politics (which supported macedonism) that such idea existed at all. Goze Delechev also had Bulgarian selfidentification. yes, and i'm sure the serbs would say bulgars separated the macedonians from the serbian ethnos, hence the endless arguments...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 28, 2011 23:12:31 GMT -5
"Ahah, ignorance at its best/worst... - NO, it is Paisij Hilendarski (his brother - Lavrentij Hilendarski, was even the egoumen of the monastery, and - NO, Hilendar was predominantly Bulgarian monastery in the XVII-XIX c., until 1902, when with the Ottoman "help" (i.e. brutal physical and administrative force, chasing away the Bulgarian monks) it was handed to the Serbs. (BTW, Hilendar was probably founded in the X c., by a monk called Georgiou Hilendarious. The Serbs just renovated it in the XII c., by Rostislav, son of Stephan Nemanja.)" No idiot, the facility was given as a gift to the Serbs and not to the Bu Lgari, in ANCIENT times. I don't give a rats if it was majority Bulgarian populated, this is a sacred monastry to us serbs and even vardarians who used to go on pilgramage to this holy place. Serbian peoples don't know where the Zoograf is, nor care about it. Seems you BuLgari like to steal and claim everything serbian as your own, just like our saint sava's remains Again, do not shame this monastry by linking it to Bulgars. Now, continue your discussion with Chento.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 28, 2011 23:15:28 GMT -5
"yes, and i'm sure the serbs would say bulgars separated the macedonians from the serbian ethnos, hence the endless arguments..."
Chento, there was never a Bulgarian consciousness prior to 1872, KEEP THAT IN MIND.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 29, 2011 0:20:53 GMT -5
yes, and i'm sure the serbs would say bulgars separated the macedonians from the serbian ethnos, hence the endless arguments... Goze Delechev: We, the Bulgarians of Macedonia and Adrianople, must not lose sight of the fact that there are other nationalities and states who are vitally interested in the solution of this questions... Its claer what your (and our) national hero meant. The Macedonians never identified as nor were identified by outsiders as Serbs. Some small Serbian minority existed in the northwest and thats it. The Serbs have no right to claim the history of Macedonia as the Bulgarians have. Even the Macedonians themselves DO NOT CLAIM as "Macedonian" the Serbs like Marko Kralevich or Dushan. On the other hand the Macedonians claim all the Bulgarians from the region of Macedonia as "Macedonian" - examples: Samuel, Kliment, Goze Delechev etc...
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