Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 30, 2011 21:39:13 GMT -5
************* "The specific features of Trifunoski’s material should not be permitted to obscure, however, our appreciation of the general significance of this type of process, which certainly has not been confined in its relevance either to the movement of Albanians or to Macedonia. Three things are interesting about his findings. First of all, they are supported independently by the incidental observations of travelers in the region from an earlier period. In spite of Albanian nationalist claims to the effect that “Albania” traditionally extends to the east of a line drawn between Bitola and Skopje, Albanian settlement east of the Ohrid and Prespa lakes and the river Crni Drim seems to have been relatively thin in the early years of the nineteenth century. Secondly, an oral tradition regarding the origins of families, not infrequently extending back well over a century, is relatively common, making it possible to speak with precision and assurance about the origins of Albanian settlers in western Macedonia today. Thirdly, whereas contemporary Macedonian slav stereotypes accounting for the growth of the Albanian population invariably focus upon the higher fertility of Albanians, a high proportion of the expansion of population does appear to be due to in-migration and of a type described by Cvijic. In many cases, these have involved quite long-range movements, with a large number of the Albanian settlers from western Macedonia interviewed by Trifunoski tracing their origins to the Albanian regions of Llumi, Peshkopi and Mat. Although the zadruga is usually discussed as a specifically Slav institution, Trifunoski notes that it is the strength of this tradition of familial solidarity among Albanians which supports this type of incremental movement." Explaining Yugoslavia John B. Allcock Page 160 ************************ "Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Skenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right." Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition. Thammy Evans Page 39 ********************** "In many cases communal disputes seem to be related to the different geographical origin of the local clans. Though no proper research has been done, it is a fact that between 1750 and 1850 successive waves of refugees settled in Macedonia. They were Christians, Albanian-, Greek- or Vlach-speaking, evicted from Epirus due to the continuous disturbances caused initially by the Albanian tribes and later on by the Ali pasha irregulars. In the course of a century a considerable number of new villages were established throughout Macedonia, while in other cases refugee families settled in Slav-speaking communities. " Social cleavages and national "awakening" in Ottoman Macedonia, by Basil Gounaris, East European Quarterly, Winter 1995 v29 n4 p409(18).
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Post by plisbardhi on Nov 30, 2011 23:46:10 GMT -5
I agree with the information provided. Albs have a problem when Slavs claim that we largely migrated after 1900, especially during WWII and somehow during communist times.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 0:17:45 GMT -5
I agree with the information provided. Albs have a problem when Slavs claim that we largely migrated after 1900, especially during WWII and somehow during communist times. OK and we have a problem when you say 'we are illyrians and this is our land, slavs settled on our land'..etc. etc. the above facts tell us otherwise...albanians settled in slavic majority areas from the 17th century onwards...
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 0:33:23 GMT -5
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Post by Shqipni13 on Dec 1, 2011 1:05:09 GMT -5
^How does this prove Albanians aren't the descendants of Illyrians?
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 1, 2011 5:56:12 GMT -5
Its a matter of historical perspective weather you say Albs settled or resettled that territory. For ex. its like if now Albs settle and Albanize Kiev, then centuries from now claim its Alb land even though it was originally Slav. So then if Slavs gradually resettled Kiev and claimed it as their own would you side with the Slavs or Albs?
Also the connection we have with the Illyrians is an all-round ethnic one, the same cannot be said for you and the ancient Macedonians.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Dec 1, 2011 6:20:57 GMT -5
^+1
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 1, 2011 16:31:28 GMT -5
during the 1st & 2nd balcon wars ,ww1 & ww2 there was much movement of Albanians .....bcs of forced expulsions
* every war fought in the Balkans in whatever name was used by our slav and greek neighbors as cover for getting rid of Albanians
* bcs the natives always reside on the best lands and areas
BUT STILL IN OUR OWN BACK YARDS
you can compare us to the native American Indians upon their own lands ....
be in the know and use common sense ...when slavs came into the Balkans it was not empty of people and vacancy in the most fertile soil ....and throw that kicthen table history out the window
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Post by missanthropology58 on Dec 1, 2011 16:43:18 GMT -5
Macedonians=Greeks.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:06:02 GMT -5
Its a matter of historical perspective weather you say Albs settled or resettled that territory. For ex. its like if now Albs settle and Albanize Kiev, then centuries from now claim its Alb land even though it was originally Slav. So then if Slavs gradually resettled Kiev and claimed it as their own would you side with the Slavs or Albs? Also the connection we have with the Illyrians is an all-round ethnic one, the same cannot be said for you and the ancient Macedonians. At the end of the day, it is might and power that wins. The Ottomans settled muslim Albanians in western Macedonia becuae they had might and muscle. During the Balkan wars the muslims were removed, again because the Christians gained the upper hand. In 1999, NATO forced Serbian troops to vacate Kosovo. In the future.....the story continues......
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:08:25 GMT -5
during the 1st & 2nd balcon wars ,ww1 & ww2 there was much movement of Albanians .... .bcs of forced expulsions * every war fought in the Balkans in whatever name was used by our slav and greek neighbors as cover for getting rid of Albanians * bcs the natives always reside on the best lands and areas BUT STILL IN OUR OWN BACK YARDS you can compare us to the native American Indians upon their own lands .... be in the know and use common sense ...when slavs came into the Balkans it was not empty of people and vacancy in the most fertile soil ....and throw that kicthen table history out the window The Slavs displaced some natives and absorbed some aswell. We are the offspring of this mixing. Albanians are not the natives....
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 1, 2011 17:16:08 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the might makes right argument, the problem is that it isn't compatible with the historical argument which you don't have. Hence you discrediting yourself.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:29:06 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the might makes right argument, the problem is that it isn't compatible with the historical argument which you don't have. Hence you discrediting yourself. OK let's return to one of the quotes again; "Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Skenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right." Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition. Thammy Evans Page 39 So the powerful Ottomans awarded the muslim converts (Albanians) lands in Macedonia. Turks were also settled in Macedonia and awarded lands. This situation was reversed during and after the Balkan wars as Rex states above. I know you guys wish to return to the Ottoman days, when muslims ruled over the 'Kauri', but this is not going to happen. NATO are not the Ottomans...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 1, 2011 17:33:43 GMT -5
then how did the Christian Albanians get there ...? You Know Branko Manojllovski ??[youtube] they gave us the juice ....but thats just your excuse bcs you make it sound like they flew us in from South America * and same thing goes ....bcs we might had the juice durring ottoman times we just took back what was taken prior
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 1, 2011 17:36:15 GMT -5
Please do not use derogatory terms here bcs you are insulting my Christian Albanian sisters and brothers
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:40:06 GMT -5
In Macedonia everyone has the right to declare their nationality, so Christian Albanians can do so. Can the same be said for Albania? Macedonians outside of Mala Prespa cannot declare they are Macedonians...go figure...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 1, 2011 17:47:25 GMT -5
you have many ploys and twisting of history to use ...but for a people that are the newest newcomers upon the lands you have gained guts and balls since sept 8 1991 .....but by disregarding 40% of the Macedonian population and making cookies for yourselves only you will eventually choke on them .
dobra nok
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 1, 2011 17:51:03 GMT -5
In Macedonia everyone has the right to declare their nationality, so Christian Albanians can do so. Can the same be said for Albania? Macedonians outside of Mala Prespa cannot declare they are Macedonians...go figure... they have their own schools and things for the small amount there is btw ...when the few Slavs from Albanian come to our part of Macedonia looking for daily work or at the pazars to sell why is it that you mac slavs do not get along with them ? .....anwer this one for me they usually end up selling or working for Albanians ...and its not bcs they also speak Albanian perfectly
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:55:05 GMT -5
you have many ploys and twisting of history to use ...but for a people that are the newest newcomers upon the lands you have gained guts and balls since sept 8 1991 .....but by disregarding 40% of the Macedonian population and making cookies for yourselves only you will eventually choke on them . dobra nok 40%?? it was 25% in 2002 census, and much lower than that now...
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 1, 2011 17:56:47 GMT -5
In Macedonia everyone has the right to declare their nationality, so Christian Albanians can do so. Can the same be said for Albania? Macedonians outside of Mala Prespa cannot declare they are Macedonians...go figure... they have their own schools and things for the small amount there is btw ...when the few Slavs from Albanian come to our part of Macedonia looking for daily work or at the pazars to sell why is it that you mac slavs do not get along with them ? .....anwer this one for me they usually end up selling or working for Albanians ...and its not bcs they also speak Albanian perfectly I have relatives who are married to Macedonians from Albania. And I have relatives who employ Macedonians from Pustec who work in our fields. Not sure what you're talking about here..
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