Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 6, 2011 19:45:10 GMT -5
The above is from pg. 27 of the book ‘ ‘Macedonian Things’ and ‘Irredentist Things’ ‘ by Chysostomos Papastavros, published in 2008 by the Local Community of Mavrochorio, Kastoria. It is a table of the 4 Irredentist Pan-Slavic Plans for Greece. Throughout history, and with Russian backing, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and now FYROM have each had their agendas for Macedonia. I. 1453 – 1821: The Greek Peninsula is under the Ottoman Turk Rule. Constantinople or ‘Second Rome’ falls to the Turks. Russia tries to help the Greeks for her own interests to get to the Aegean. It presents itself as the ‘Third Rome’ and self declares as the protector and new leader of Orthodox Christianity. Once Greece declares independence and asks for support from France and Great Britain, Russia turns to the Bulgarians to achieve the goal of getting to the Aegean. II. 1878 – 1908: Russian ambassador to the Sublime Porte, Count Nikolay Pavlovich Ignatieff, gets orders from the Russian Tsar to create the Bulgarian Exarchy, and raise the Bulgarian population in Macedonia. All this to force Turkey to cede the Southern Balkans to Bulgaria. The Treaty of San Stefano tried to achieve this under the false pretence that the majority of the population in Macedonia was Bulgarian and not Greek. Europe did not allow this to happen. The Bulgarian and Greek Struggle for Macedonia begins and ends with the complete retreat of Bulgaria from Greek soil. In 1912, Macedonia is freed from Turkey and declares unity with Greece. III. 1917 – 1942: Bulgaria supports Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and expects to get Macedonia as reward. Bulgaria again occupies northern Greece during both World Wars. Once the Axis falls, Russia again tries to get to the Aegean through Communism with an idea for a Communist Balkan Alliance or ‘Switzerland of the Balkans’ called ‘Macedonia’. IV. 1943 – Present: Russian leader Stalin, with Yugoslav leader Tito create ‘The People’s Republic of Macedonia’ out of Vardarska Banovina in South Yugoslavia and support Greek communist guerillas in Greek Macedonia. They abduct 28 000 Greek children to re-educate them and use them as fighters against Greece. The Greek Civil War ends with the communist defeat. Many Greek and Yugoslav fighters flee into the Iron Curtain and take their families with them. OFFICIAL COMMUNIST-SPONSORED AND (SINCE 1991 WHEN YUGOSLAVIA BREAKS UP) NATIONALIST MACEDONISM CONTINUES
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 6, 2011 20:57:20 GMT -5
"II. 1878 – 1908: Russian ambassador to the Sublime Porte, Count Nikolay Pavlovich Ignatieff, gets orders from the Russian Tsar to create the Bulgarian Exarchy, and raise the Bulgarian population in Macedonia. All this to force Turkey to cede the Southern Balkans to Bulgaria. The Treaty of San Stefano tried to achieve this under the false pretence that the majority of the population in Macedonia was Bulgarian and not Greek. Europe did not allow this to happen. The Bulgarian and Greek Struggle for Macedonia begins and ends with the complete retreat of Bulgaria from Greek soil. In 1912, Macedonia is freed from Turkey and declares unity with Greece."
Novi did make mention of this numerous times, but stupid BuLgari are too blinded by "Golemo BuLgarskata". You see Chento, as both me and Pyrro have truthfully stated here, it was Russia's intent to create a large and unhistorically Bulgaria ,incorrect nation, from the expense of both Greece and Serbia, territorally. A big Bulgaria was not really going to be an indpendant nation, she was going to be a protectorate like a French North Africa for instance, Russia aims were to control the mediterrean and to use BuLgarska as a base to destroy Turkiye from existence, forever. As time went on, the Russians got p.issed with the BuLgari and the west were paranoid of this plan by Russia.
PS I endeavour to be as accurate as l can.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Dec 6, 2011 21:22:40 GMT -5
" II. 1878 – 1908: Russian ambassador to the Sublime Porte, Count Nikolay Pavlovich Ignatieff, gets orders from the Russian Tsar to create the Bulgarian Exarchy, and raise the Bulgarian population in Macedonia. All this to force Turkey to cede the Southern Balkans to Bulgaria. The Treaty of San Stefano tried to achieve this under the false pretence that the majority of the population in Macedonia was Bulgarian and not Greek. Europe did not allow this to happen. The Bulgarian and Greek Struggle for Macedonia begins and ends with the complete retreat of Bulgaria from Greek soil. In 1912, Macedonia is freed from Turkey and declares unity with Greece." Novi did make mention of this numerous times, but stupid Bu Lgari are too blinded by "Golemo Bu Lgarskata". You see Chento, as both me and Pyrro have truthfully stated here, it was Russia's intent to create a large and unhistorically Bulgaria ,incorrect nation, from the expense of both Greece and Serbia, territorally. A big Bulgaria was not really going to be an indpendant nation, she was going to be a protectorate like a French North Africa for instance, Russia aims were to control the mediterrean and to use Bu Lgarska as a base to destroy Turkiye from existence, forever. As time went on, the Russians got p.issed with the Bu Lgari and the west were paranoid of this plan by Russia. PS I endeavour to be as accurate as l can. I agree Novi. But do you agree that geographic Macedonia - most of it, should have been in Slavic hands? Please notice the thick black line, which according to the legend corresponds to the ETHNIC BORDER OF THE MACEDONIANS. Source: The map was published in the Yugoslav newspaper Borba, August 26th 1946.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 7, 2011 4:26:00 GMT -5
Why Greece has good relations with Serbia Bulgaria , Russia When Hitler failed to take Moscow he lost the first great battle of Russia—which meant that he had lost the war. His eventual defeat was partly made possible by Greeks and Yugoslavs. The three-month delay in the Balkans gave the Russians valuable time for preparations.In the first Balkan war Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria fought against Turkey. Macedonia? If you take the port of Thessaloniki as a center, and draw on the map a rough semicircle with a radius of somewhat less than one hundred miles, the area within the circle will include the territory loosely called Macedonia. The strategic importance of the Vardar Valley has made this area a constant bone of contention. Northern Macedonia or Southern Macedonia the largest single element was made up of Greeks. Next in numerical order came the Turks who owned a great deal of the farming land. The Slavic element came third, comprising some who spoke a dialect close to SerboBulgarian and more whose speech was akin to Bulgarian and who were also adherents of the Bulgarian branch of the Orthodox church, called the Exarchate. Other less important elements in the population were the Vlachs, for the most part nomads and a small group of Albanians, and Jews in Thessaloniki. Before 1912, while Macedonia still belonged to Turkey, it was a hotbed of intensive propaganda and intrigue. Each of the neighboring countries, Yugoslavia, and Bulgaria, sought in various ways to promote its own interests, strengthen its own nationals already established there, and bolster up its claims to as large a part of the area as possible. Yugoslavia renamed Vardarska to Macedonia like the Greek Province of ancient Macedonia The Turks were contented to see the non-Turkish elements fighting with one another and made only half-hearted efforts to stop the disturbances. Bloody raids and even pitched battles often developed; carried out by organized bands of guerrillas called “Comitadjis.” The small farmers who had their homes in that part of the world and who had to make their living from the land, had a very rough time of it, being constantly exposed to violence and plunder from all directions. Russia helped the Bulgarians gain their independence. At the time, Britain and Austria, afraid of Russian influence, kept Bulgaria small instead of permitting the creation of the Greater Bulgaria planned by Russia. The Bulgars joined the German side in the last war and this one too, because they hoped to build out of conquered territories this Greater Bulgaria of their dreams. Now they have again occupied large strips of southern Yugoslavia and of northern Greece. This area—including Macedonia and western Thrace—has long made one of the most disputed Balkan problems. Taking advantage of the collapse of Yugoslavia and Greece when they were overpowered by the Nazi attack of 1941, and with permission granted by Germany, Bulgaria proceeded to occupy Yugoslavianas territory aswell Greek Macedonia and Thrace. Since then it has formally annexed these provinces. Circumstantial reports say that the Bulgarian occupying authorities have evicted and expelled or even killed thousands upon thousands of the Greek and Serbian inhabitants and replaced them with Bulgarian colonists, apparently in a deliberate and systematic attempt to strengthen Bulgarian claims to these lands after the war. Whatever its flaws, the territorial settlement after World War I at least brought a considerable measure of peace. Greece and Yugoslavia accepted the division of Geographical Macedonia as final and permanent. They established order under a reasonably good government in their respective areas. Greece, with an eye to the future as well as to the past, made important treaties with Turkey and Bulgaria providing for exchanges of population. In accordance with the Greco-Turkish agreement, all Moslem Turks from Macedonia, numbering almost 400,000, were transported to Turkey for resettlement there. At the same time, all Greeks who lived in Anatolian Turkey were brought to Greece, where some 500,000 were settled in Macedonia on lands vacated by the Turks. A similar treaty between Greece and Bulgaria resulted in the transfer to Bulgaria from Macedonia of nearly 100,000 people who chose Bulgarian citizenship, while 50,000 former residents of Bulgaria who chose Greek citizenship were relocated in Macedonia. These great population movements demanded untold sacrifice and suffering of the individuals and families affected. But after some fifteen years, before World War II broke out to disrupt all calculations, observers believed the results of this far-seeing policy were beginning to show themselves worth the cost in suffering and sacrifice. By 1930 when the work of resettlement under a committee appointed by the League of Nations had been practically completed, the population of Greek Macedonia had become almost homogeneous, that is, 90 per cent of the total of 1,500,000 were Greek by language, religion, and national sentiment. For the first time in history, political boundaries in this region bore a direct and close relation to the linguistic, religious, and national preferences of the inhabitants. In Yugoslavian Macedonia no formal exchange of populations was undertaken. The official Yugoslav view was that all the Slavic-speaking elements in the provinces were more akin to the Serbs than to the Bulgarians. The total population in this region was estimated in 1931 at 1,200,000. The maximum Bulgarian claim (which some neutral observers thought probably much exaggerated) held that about 600,000 or one-half of these were really Bulgarian-speaking or at least were members of the Bulgarian Orthodox church recognizing the authority of the Exarch in Sofia. Macedonia comprises about 32,000 square miles. After the Balkan Wars and World War I, this region was divided three ways. Yugoslavia took the northwestern portion with an area of some 15,000 square miles. Greece got a long southern strip including the entire Aegean coastline with an area of roughly 13,500 square miles. Bulgaria, which had fought on the German side and been defeated, was given a little of the northeastern corner. Greece also acquired Western Thrace, an area of about 3,350 square miles lying between the Nestos and the Maritza rivers and therefore outside Macedonia. From 1916 to 1918 it had been occupied by Bulgaria. Bulgaria was thoroughly dissatisfied with the territorial division after World War I. Although obliged to sign the Treaty of Neuilly in 1919, it refused to regard the settlement as final and permanent. Since that time, one of the main desires of almost all the successive Bulgarian governments, fully shared by the great majority of the people of Bulgaria, has been to obtain a revision of the boundaries. Bulgarians: They have wanted the annexation to Bulgaria of a substantial portion of Yugoslavian Vardarska as well as a broad section of Greek Macedonia and Thrace, with a port on the Aegean Sea. The PseudoMacedonian map above shows us that FYROM is a Satellite of Bulgaria You have nothing in common with the ancient MacedoniansPublic opinion in Bulgaria has been constantly stirred up by propaganda asserting that Bulgaria was cheated in the territorial divisions of 1913 and 1919 and that her claims for a revision are just. From time to time, also, the most extreme political faction in Bulgaria, usually without official government sanction, has sponsored acts of violence and terrorism in the Macedonian provinces of Greece and Yugoslavia region Vardarska.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 5:23:19 GMT -5
Karta, let's not be kidding here. We are a major Slav-hating country and all this bubble about friendly with Bulgaria/Serbia/Russia is a bit total BS, and we both know it.
We have based are whole existence on the mighty England and we put all our bets on this. We put all our eggs into the english basket. No doubt about it. Now, we should pray together with albanians for mighty NATO/west to stay forever otherwise we are f**ked.
That's the fate of the weak nations.
We should open channels with all slavic countries, but our mighty masters forbid that.
Now that i think about it, there was this pro-ancient greek terrorism in Greece, where we should all behave like we are fucking ancients or anything. Total terrorism. Made in England.
We are NOT ancients. Nobody in the bloody balkans is ancient.
The most ancient-pure you can get are some Serbs/CG/BiH and the Cretans/Cypriots, all else are a fucking salad. Especially Greece is the biggest salad of all.
So i see all this theater like hopeless.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 7, 2011 5:48:29 GMT -5
Northern and Southern Macedonia the largest single element was made up of Greeks.
Listen Pyrros The Greeks have suffered in all War's than any of the other Balkan people.,several catastrophic events since the war of liberation. The "megali idea" of reuniting all territories where Greeks are living was destroyed by the Asia Minor catastrophy when over one million refugees had to be integrated. Greece also suffered a lot under Italian and German occupation and the civil war.
In socio-cultural terms Greece is a highly homogeneous country, with about 97%the inhabitants being Greek-orthodox.3% catholic and Greek moslem,jewsThere are only small linguistic minorities. If we hate a branch of Slavs because it has stealed Greek history. We do not hate Serbs or Bulgarian or Albanians because they got Greek Land today. And about the Anglo-Saxon never helped Greece really the used the Greeks for there interests. In difficult times some Balkan nation stand together with the Greeks.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 7:07:09 GMT -5
Karta, my grandpa fought for EDES, during WWII and in the civil war that followed. He has written *DETAILS* of all fatalities during the wars. Take note : 20,000 dead soldiers from the official (england/west supported army + EDES, etc) 40,000 dead communists of EAM ELAS Wanna know how many Serbs soldiers died in WWI? (when no Greek nose bled?) 1,000,000 = 50% of the male population of central Serbia Wanna know how many Serbs/yugoslavs soldiers died in WWII? 1,000,000 again... Karta, let it go, we exist because of the west. No other nation had *THIS* GIGANTIC support from the west for its fight for liberation from the Ottomans.... NO ONE. Only Greeks.... Serbs made their own food, (guns, factories, Kings, politicians) Greeks ? West gave us guns, (no factories), West gave us Kings, and of course politicians.... Let it go man.... this sucks..... Ever wandered , where are the Greek fairy tales? where are the greek fairies? stories? dragons? princes? kings? we all hear about Byzantine empire, but NO ONE can substantiate that... no folklor, no memories, no nothing.... Man live it... we ain't no ancient Greeks, we are simple grekophone vlahs..... and we should live with harmony with the rest of balkanians...
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Post by missanthropology58 on Dec 7, 2011 7:08:43 GMT -5
Here we go, this shit again.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 7:09:19 GMT -5
WHAT SHIT MISSY? ?
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Post by missanthropology58 on Dec 7, 2011 7:10:55 GMT -5
This shit about Greeks hating Slavs Greeks already have a 30 percent Slavic dna or whatever E3b is Neolithic no I don't believe Greeks hate Slavs.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 7, 2011 7:37:36 GMT -5
"But do you agree that geographic Macedonia - most of it, should have been in Slavic hands?"
God has intended what it is. To be real Chento, most of the toponyms in the Balkans are of GREEK or ROMAN origin, l can point out topoymns in serbia that are either Roman or Greek, Slavicised by either the undifferentiated slavic tribes or serbs. l can tell you that in eastern serbia there was a greek population living there, there was a strong population of serbs in albania and western bulgaria, even in kosovo, apparently 30% of todays Albanians are basically Albanianised Serbs, Albanianised similarly like the Goranci (Goranci are a partial albanianised serb tribe).
Prior to the arrivial of slavs and serbian slavs to northern greece, the region was a Greek region, so, in the end it was God's plan Chento. If kosovo i metohija is to be Albanian, then, this was god's plan also, no-one cannot undo what God has written......agree?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 7:45:43 GMT -5
This s**t about Greeks hating Slavs Greeks already have a 30 percent Slavic dna or whatever E3b is Neolithic no I don't believe Greeks hate Slavs. we are programmed to hate SLavs. For over 200 solid years.... planing/design/implementation by the mighty ENGLAND.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 8:07:09 GMT -5
"But do you agree that geographic Macedonia - most of it, should have been in Slavic hands?" God has intended what it is. To be real Chento, most of the toponyms in the Balkans are of GREEK or ROMAN origin, l can point out topoymns in serbia that are either Roman or Greek, Slavicised by either the undifferentiated slavic tribes or serbs. l can tell you that in eastern serbia there was a greek population living there, there was a strong population of serbs in albania and western bulgaria, even in kosovo, apparently 30% of todays Albanians are basically Albanianised Serbs, Albanianised similarly like the Goranci (Goranci are a partial albanianised serb tribe). Prior to the arrivial of slavs and serbian slavs to northern greece, the region was a Greek region, so, in the end it was God's plan Chento. If kosovo i metohija is to be Albanian, then, this was god's plan also, no-one cannot undo what God has written......agree? who knows, maybe more Greeks live today in Serbia than in Greece..... cause there is no way on earth that our accent has a greek origin.
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Hellenas
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Post by Hellenas on Dec 7, 2011 9:04:46 GMT -5
Karta, let's not be kidding here. We are a major Slav-hating country and all this bubble about friendly with Bulgaria/Serbia/Russia is a bit total BS, and we both know it. We have based are whole existence on the mighty England and we put all our bets on this. We put all our eggs into the english basket. No doubt about it. Now, we should pray together with albanians for mighty NATO/west to stay forever otherwise we are f**ked. That's the fate of the weak nations. We should open channels with all slavic countries, but our mighty masters forbid that. Now that i think about it, there was this pro-ancient greek terrorism in Greece, where we should all behave like we are f**king ancients or anything. Total terrorism. Made in England. We are NOT ancients. Nobody in the bloody balkans is ancient. The most ancient-pure you can get are some Serbs/CG/BiH and the Cretans/Cypriots, all else are a f**king salad. Especially Greece is the biggest salad of all. So i see all this theater like hopeless. Pyrro, you are wrong here. 28 different European and American universities under the leadership of Cambridge Universite proved that modern Greeks have the same DNA like Ancient Greeks and that the Greeks descend from the Greeks of antiquity who lived inside of Greece and outside of Greece, our neighbors are racially, partly, pretty Greeks. In numbers, 98% of modern Greeks descend from Ancient Greeks and only 2% from non-ancient-Greeks. This stated by Constantinos Plevris in TV, he also said that whoever want the studies can come in contact with him. Unfortunatelly I don't hold the studies yet but this will blow up all of our anti-Greek enemies who spam the internet claiming the opposite. For now: Greek autosomal DNAA striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:THE FOURTH is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C. racialreality.110mb.com/genetic_variation.html
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Dec 7, 2011 9:06:06 GMT -5
The Macedonians today exist. But they did not exist as an ethnicity back till the 50ties of 20th century. The vast majority of the grandparents of presentday Macedonians were with Bulgarian selfconsciousness. It was no secret for the Greeks, nor the Serbs (Novakovic anyone?). There have always been a strong REGIONAL identification as Macedonians throughout the ages, but this regional identification wascharacteristic not only for the Bulgarians from Macedonia, but also the Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs and Serbs (northwest) of Macedonia. Today the Bulgarians in Pirin Macedonia still refer to themselves as Macedonians as a regional identification BUT they still see themselves as ethnic Bulgarians. The situattion is similar in Greece. Only in the Yugo part there emerged the Macedonians, which are descedants mainly of Bulgarians, but at the time being Bulgarian was thought to be antiYugo, because it could ve led to unification of Yugo Macedonia with Bulgaria (so not in line with Yugo interests). As a result we have these peple raised in hate towards Bulgarians and Greeks. If we have to observe the truth, the Macedonians can not claim links to the Ancient Macedonians because they did not live in present day Macedonia but in northern Greece. The more accurate ancient name would ve been Peonia or Thrace (peonians were thracians). If the Macedonians have ancient blood in them: its the same blood as in the Bulgarians: thracian, not macedonian.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Dec 7, 2011 9:14:25 GMT -5
Hmm.. good thing we've got all of the rest of the world (ie. the netural part) corroborating Russia's findings. And those findings were that all throughout Macedonia (Vardar, Aegean, and Pirin) 2/3 or more of the population identified as ethnic Bulgarians.
So again, read, learn, broaden your knowledge.
Bulgaria is one of the oldest nations in Europe, and one of the only nations that has earned its place on this continent.
As I said, I suggest you start reading more books.. and it would be to your advantage to actually read them to the fullest, otherwise you end up looking very ignorant.
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Post by Anittas on Dec 7, 2011 10:13:22 GMT -5
"and one of the only nations that has earned its place on this continent"
That makes no sense. Okay, I suppose you wanted to say "one of the few". Let's go with that. The next question that arises is, based on what criteria? What nations haven't earned their place on "this continent"?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 10:24:12 GMT -5
Pyrro, you are wrong here. 28 different European and American universities under the leadership of Cambridge Universite proved that modern Greeks have the same DNA like Ancient Greeks and that the Greeks descend from the Greeks of antiquity who lived inside of Greece and outside of Greece, our neighbors are racially, partly, pretty Greeks. In numbers, 98% of modern Greeks descend from Ancient Greeks and only 2% from non-ancient-Greeks. This stated by Constantinos Plevris in TV, he also said that whoever want the studies can come in contact with him. Unfortunatelly I don't hold the studies yet but this will blow up all of our anti-Greek enemies who spam the internet claiming the opposite. For now: Greek autosomal DNAA striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:THE FOURTH is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C. racialreality.110mb.com/genetic_variation.htmlbro, the problem is not in the blood. When i say "purity" i mean spiritual purity. If e.g. a Serb from Nis or Leskovac looks like Greek but acts like a Serb, then by all means, he is a mean bad-ass Serb. What do i mean by acts like a Serb? - He has plum trees and makes brandy - he has pigs - he makes "slanina" - he makes "kupus" - sarma - he believes in "Vile" (fairies), and "Zmajevi" (dragons) - he knows his roots back to the Kosovo battle - he dances fast and sings loud - he likes poetry - he likes nature - he likes agriculture - he likes music ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Those characteristics can be found in Serbs and in many Bulgarians/Russians/etc.... and all these are seperate from the color of the hair/height/weight/etc.... You see??? Do we have such common things in Greece for which WE ARE PROUD of??? Do we have ONE single ethno-restaurant in ATHENS where ppl can taste the TRADITIONAL food of Attica, playing TRADITIONAL MUSIC OF ATTICA and where the waiters/waitresses are dressed in LOCAL costumes and act naturally and POLITELY when the customers ARE NOT TOURISTS but normal GREEKS? ?? I am afraid THERE CANNOT BE SUCH A RESTAURANT....
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 7, 2011 10:26:05 GMT -5
Ivo bro, did you see Ioan lately ? i gotta ask him smth.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Dec 7, 2011 11:20:33 GMT -5
Ahh Anittas, as I've told you before you're too smart. Yet you somehow fail to understand that communication in any language is ever evolving. It's not a matter of being "proper", but rather a matter of being able to make a point in a given situation, at a given time, targetting a given audiance.
In essence, you're nothing more but the kid that memorizes 'the book' and fails to do anything other than regurgitate that which has been written.
You my freind are a dinasour, one whose life is shaped by external events, a person unable to contirbute in any way to the things that shape your environment.
Anyhow, please keep your "corrections" coming as they serve as a constant reminder of what not to do.
Well for one, we don't pride ourselves in the history of our masters. We don't steal other people's history. And all that we pride ourselves in is that which we've achived ourselves.
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