|
Post by groet on Mar 28, 2012 14:15:06 GMT -5
Theres no evidence for that. That linguist certainly thinks there is evidence for that, he seems quite convinced actually. I'm not saying he's right, but it certainly makes room for other possibilities. Coincidentally, that linguist writes that essay in response to another linguist, Eric Hamp, who claims that Albanian is much closer to Slavic and Baltic than anything else and that it's not close to Thracian at all. It's an interesting read actually; www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm#RefYes, though you're missing the point, which is that Baltic languages are closer to Thracian on the basis of that glossary. It is not a complete dictionary thats for sure but a couple of hundred words isnt a little amount either for an extinct language. And when most of these words have a Slavic and Baltic connection it must mean something. You're missing the point, which is that there's so many languages that would be closer to Thracian than Albanian based on that glossary, languages which logically shouldn't be closer, because even if Albanian doesn't descend from Thracian it's still most likely a descendant of a Paleo-Balkan language which should have had contact with Thracian and maybe even related somehow. Indeed. It does if there are two alternatives for who the linguistic ancestors of the Albanians might be: Thracians or Illyrians. The structure of Thracian doesn't fit with that of Albanian as I think we have agreed on, yet as that author says most Illyrian nameplaces consist of just a single word; not refuting the possibility of Illyrian-Albanian relations on the structural basis that showed that Thracian most likely is not the ancestor of Albanian. You're on a gameshow, there's a question with two alternatives, one which you know can't be right, therefore the other alternative must be right. Which is what is the most confusing to me, I don't think Albanian descends from Thracian, but it definitely is a Paleo-Balkan language. However, you don't leave out the possibility of Albanian stemming from a language that was neither Illyrian or Paleo-Balkan - even trying to disprove it - on the basis of dissimilarity with Thracian. It makes me wonder: why? We know little about Messapian, and the theory about Messapian being an Illyrian language is rather loose, and it's certainly not an established fact. Venetic was assumed to be Illyrian though that was proven wrong; linguists made the mistake to think that and concluded that Illyrian must have been Centum based on Venetic being Centum. However, it has been disproved, Venetic was not related to Illyrian; similarily, this could be true for Messapian as well, and any conclusion about Illyrian that had been based on Messapian rather than Illyrian itself would have to be thrown away. Still, thinking about it, Bréntion, modern Brindisi, is related to Albanian 'bri' meaning horn. So is Messapian mazzes 'greater' is a cognate to Albanian madhe 'great, large'; the archaic form of that word: maze is even more similar.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Mar 28, 2012 18:47:17 GMT -5
Just some few notes.
The first one is about the supposed closer ties of Slavic to Thracian than Albanian to Thracian. That list you provided as an illustration for this conclusion is a list of cognates. In order to decode the meaning of words belonging to ancient languages we know little of, linguists use this sort of comparative method to shed light on the matter. It is not necessarily about which of these surviving languages is closer to the language subject to study. Slavic languages, having been isolated from contact with advanced civilisations for much of its early history, were able to preserve a high amount of original non-borrowed words of Indoeuropean extraction, making them useful in these sort of comparative methods. It doesn't mean its closer to Thracian because of it.
Secondly, with regards to ancient toponyms, most Illyrian toponyms are actually composed by single units, not double as in Thracian.
Thirdly, one point often disregarded is that Thracian land was situated south of the Jirecek line, meaning that if Albanian was descended from it, it would have had a far higher degree of ancient Greek loan words than it in fact does. Instead, our language is heavily influenced by Latin, suggesting our ancestors lived north of the line in close contact with Latin-speaking populations leaving the Illyrian option as more plausible. The symbiosis that has been noted from early on by scholars between Albanian and Romanian suggests we must have autochtonous due to the nature of the similarities between these languages.
Fourthly, one method used to pin down the location of our ancestors is by studying ancient toponyms and their forms in Albanian and oither languages. In much of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia (minus the coast) ancient place-names were eradicated by the marauding Slavs. But in contemporary Albania and other close locations you have several such place-names that have had no intermediation, meaning our ancestors have always been in close proximity to these locations because their evolution from their ancient form to the modern equivalent corresponds with the phonetic rules of our language. Examples include Scodra-->Shkodër, Drinus-->Dri(ni), Ragusium-->Rush, Drivastum-->Drisht, Barbanna-->Buena, Scardona-->Shar, Mathis-->Mati, Isamnus-->Ishëm, etc.
|
|
paul
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by paul on Mar 28, 2012 21:47:49 GMT -5
Reality Dysfunction/
That’s fair enough i wasn’t expecting to find linguistic scholars here. Some of the questions are probably out of the depth of people but thought ill ask anyways. Professional evidence is better than amateur evidence i agree but nothing wrong with digging into how professionals come to conclusions. Not all of them are right, just seeing the various opinions and reasons on the origin of Albanian and other languages and even indo european show they cant agree on some important things.
That doesnt mean we should avoid discussion about it, the scholars books are published for a reason so people like me and you can learn about the topic. Also i think people should be aware of background and facts if they want to passionately and convincingly argue a point. Thanks for other links will look at them, am still checking out the ones you gave before and making a list of points for and against made about a Albo-Illyro connection, i will put them here when finished.
There is no agenda, what do i have to gain?? Many people and scholars have talked about the closeness of Thracian and Slavic so i am not the first one, i just want to discuss this maturely as relates to the main topic of Albanian connection to Illyrian. I have seen some very insulting and imature crap written on this website by many people but there are some like you and groet who have responded maturely even if you dont agree with me which is what i was looking for, this is website for discussion afterall.
That is wrong. I think it is possible that Albanian shaped in the Balkans as a hybrid language and so do you, but the difference between us is you think all of the important language elements were native balkan where i think at least some important language elements came from outside of the balkans. I dont go tell people my version is right and maybe in future will change my views but atm this is what i think and will continue to research. The reason i think this as i explained before is because Albanian has some characteristics that are not common for old balkan languages and are difficult to connect them as natural development process. About Thracian and Slavic, i just think they could’ve been cousin languages before the first one became extinct.
I hope i answered enough above. In case youre thinking it i dont follow the “caucasus theory” that says that Albanians and their language originated in Caucasus area, i have seen some comparisons between the languages but nothing in detail so cant say much further until i do.
Yes.
I am not Albanian have not pretended to be Albanian and have nothing against Albanians.
groet/ There is evidence for Baltic-Albanian-Slavic similarities for sure, but I think them kinds of possibilities can also be reversed like saying Albanian is a mix of Slavic or Baltic with something else, i think its more likely that they have similarities because of contact or maybe even common origin long time ago but this is only my opinion.
Thanks will take a look.
1. Slavic is closer to Thracian vocabulary than Albanian 2. Baltic is closer to Thracian than both Slavic and Albanian 3. Baltic and Slavic come from the same origin 4. At 2000 years ago while Thracian was still spoken, Baltic and Slavic were much more similar than they are today and therefore more similar to Thracian. They are the facts and im not missing any point, if you dont agree then maybe cant accept this because your biased against Slavic. I dont see why this cant be discussed more and dont see why topics on origins of Albanian and Slavic need to clash, that is why i dont want nationalistic influence here because it gets in the way and clouds discussions, people are too concerned with being “originals” in the Balkans that they dont bother with discussing detail and information. Albanian is either related or unrelated to Thracian, loanwords dont count as related because even substratums are more than just loanwords. Most of the evidence says it was not related so any similarities Albanian has with Thracian is not different to German, Latin etc loanwords in or out of Thracian. The similarities with Slavic and Baltic are much more numerous and convincing, this cant be ignored. Do you think its possible that it be a balkan substratum? Atm it looks like many opinions are based on what is not known instead of what is known.
When i disprove Albanian similarity with Thracian i am not disproving it partly or mostly came from another balkan language, i was just hoping to find more evidence of a Illyrian connection, which i have started looking for with the links you and Reality Dysfunction gave. I have already said the reason why i think there is a nonbalkan element in Albanian, some characteristics dont match with other balkan languages, but there is also vocabulary. I think it is a mistake to assume that unique Albanian vocabulary should be automatically classified as Illyrian without proper explanation.
donnie/
Not necessarily but when it is supported by more evidence like unique cognates, similar suffixes and development then it is not just coincidence because of early indo european similarities. Most but not all apparently, but havent been able to find much yet. Illyrians spread all the way to drava river and maybe even further in some places, how do we know Albanians werent located in the far north or north east away from maritime areas for which Albanian lacks vocabulary? There are many Albanian Romanian cognates but how many are connected to Thracian or Illyrian and how unique are they compared to other languages?
Most of Albania is south of the Jirecek line even though you said Albanian must have originated north of it. This leaves an area which includes places like Lac and Scodra which are close to the Adriatic coast so maritime words shouldve been expected.
|
|
|
Post by realitydysfunction on Mar 28, 2012 23:51:39 GMT -5
I am not doing the whole quotation tree because it takes too much time. I hope the train of thought won't be hard to follow as I reply to your post.
That begs the question: do you have any linguistic training? If the questions you pose to us are out of our depth, are they also not out of yours?
Free and honest discussion never hurt anyone’s soul. I look forward to your pros-and-cons list for the Alb-Illyrian linguistic connection.
I didn’t accuse you of an agenda. We cannot know your true motives, no matter what you declare here.
So, when someone asks at point blank range “is the Albanian language really Illyrian”, when a better question would have been “what does the Albanian language come from”, well, you can see how someone’s spidey senses are tingling. Again, this is only speculation on my part.
I am very happy to hear that you don’t put a lot of stock on the “Caucasus theory” as the original homeland of the Albanian language. Feel free to research it to your heart’s content.
The question of the origin of the Albanian language is very closely linked to the ethno-genesis of the Albanian people. If Albanian is at all a survivor of one of the paleo-Balkan languages (no matter which) then it means the language survived because a core group of native speakers survived the aggressive assimilation of the more powerful socio-military cultures (Hellenic and Roman), and even the Slavic ingression into Balkan.
Some of the evidence for this comes from the few borrowings from the Doric Greek. It seems to me (and to scholars)that if these borrowings occurred, this had to have happened at a rather early time and at a contact zone north of the Jirecek line. The words could not have been borrowed over a thousand years later, when the Albanians first make their entrance into recorded history. The same can be said for the connection of proto-Albanian to proto-Romanian, and for the two distinct layers of borrowings from Latin. In a similar fashion, there are traces in the Albanian language of a certain rhotacism that is known to have occurred in South Slavic languages before the IX-th century. I think none of those features would have made it into Albanian if there was not a core of proto-Albanian speakers to do the absorbing.
|
|
|
Post by realitydysfunction on Mar 29, 2012 0:12:30 GMT -5
Also, out of all my readings I have never seen scholars debate the Albanian language out of the context of of Illyrian, Thrakian or Dacian, and most certainly never out of the Indo-European family of languages. Yes, we can all agree that there is a degree a uncertainty and difficulty with assigning it to a specific branch. But, just because we cannot pinpoint with absolute certainty where in Balkan this does not mean that we can take flight on a poetic license and look for its origins in, shall we say, Siberia, Japan, Oklahoma, Somalia or Sudan. What is your opinion on this? If not in Balkan, where would you look for the Albanian language, whether origins or some elements?
|
|
atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
|
Post by atdhetar on Mar 29, 2012 3:08:21 GMT -5
Read the links i gave, I am not biased just giving examples of other possibilities. There is no agenda just came to talk about linguistics. I dont care who or what you are and im not interested in exchanging details with you. You dont know anything useful bout this topic and youve done nothing but talk crap for 3 posts. I have not insulted anybody or culture here so go and waste somebody elses time and leave it for informed Albanians to respond. look, douchebag, i am not going to be as courteous or mild mannered like my patient compatriots, first off, i'd rather know nothing on a subject than to purposely twist and interpret something based on my agenda. second, you do not start a thread by questioning the origins of the albanian language without implying that albanians are not indigenous to the balcans, you're not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes here, do drop the f**king gimmick and stop claiming you do not have an agenda, it only makes you look like a twat! furthermore, i didn't ask for your actual identity or how many times a day you change skirts, i was insinuating you're one of those occasional freak occourances whereby a misguided serb assumes this new persona and engages in a seemingly mild spirited scholarly debate about the origins of albanians claiming they're here solely for academic purposes yet they're impervious to opinions offered from other but as times goes by they slowly but surely rear their ugly heads...you are steadily heading in that direction.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Mar 29, 2012 4:49:42 GMT -5
Exactly, north of it, as in Illyria proper. And our language does contain an indigenous maritime vocabulary, though it is admittedly small. But that doesn't really mean much. Our ancestors might have lived in the hinterland and been isolated for a sufficiently long period to not have much or any contact with the sea, but enough with local towns where they would've sold their cheese and furs. You don't have to go much beyond Malësi for this t have happened.
|
|
paul
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by paul on Mar 29, 2012 6:12:32 GMT -5
Reality Dysfunction/ Just a beginner but ok knowledge of the basics.
No otherwise i wouldnt ask.
Give me few days. Ok but what could my motives be? Im not here to argue or insult Albanians, only to talk about what is and isnt similar to between Illyrian and Albanian languages. Im not going to tell you what your language is, just want to talk about different possibilities thats it. At the end both of us will gain from shared knowledge even if we dont agree on conclusions.
You look like a decent person so if you want to continue this discussion thats good but if you dont because i wont “share cards” then up to you, i didnt come to look for friends just to talk to normal people bout linguistics.
Maybe for other people but for me i dont have that motive, if that is what i conclude after research then thats another matter but atm i think Illyrian did contribute to shaping Albanian, just im not sure bout how much influence it had or how much influence other languages had.
None of that is relevant, you should judge people on the actions and not try to make opinion on bias against their culture and background.
I shouldve been more clear because i meant like if Albanian was directly descended from Illyrian.
I dont think ill waste too much time with it, what do you think of the cognate list that has been showed around?
So the theory is that Albanian survived in the mountains which is why vocabulary of plants from there is native. The question i have is why did the maritime words get lost its not like Albanians wouldnt leave there the mountains from time to time? How much of the mountain words are connected to Illyrian? I think a more inland region is more likely.
I am getting round to reading bout the Doric borrowings, thats something that does support a Illyrian connection for Albanian because Doric wouldve been spoken close to Illyria.
Ok but how does this relate Albanian to Illyrian?
I agree but your comparison is not near to what i am suggesting. Havent made any conclusions, if i do will let you know.
atdhetar/
Thats because your immature and cant be take seriously like they can.
Then your lucky because you know nothing on this subject and im not twisting anything for an agenda.
I dont have to imply anything I dont want to imply because you are nobody to me and your wishes mean nothing here.
Im not trying to.
My only agenda is to learn more bout Illyro-Albanian connection, thats it, anything more is just your fantasy. Dont wait for me to turn into someone else because its not going to happen, maybe you will finally notice this when you stop being a rude woman.
|
|
|
Post by realitydysfunction on Mar 29, 2012 11:57:14 GMT -5
You look like a decent person so if you want to continue this discussion thats good but if you dont because i wont “share cards” then up to you, i didnt come to look for friends just to talk to normal people bout linguistics. Let's set all that fluff about motives aside. You can "play your cards" however you like. Your conclusions are your own also. We are not trying to forcefully impose our views, just laying things out on the record and everybody walks away with whatever conclusions they can get out of it. I've come across some long tirades trying to connect the Albanian language with Chechen or Turkic but it's been a long while since and I don't remember many particulars. The one thing I remember is how they try to make a connection between the ending in Shqipt AR with turkic groups such as Bulg AR, Av AR, etc, but this is only a surface appearance. The ending in Shqiptar is a grammatical feature of IndoEuropean language. Just as in English, work takes on the ending work erride takes on the ending rid er, and so on In Albanian, Shqip takes on the ending Shqipt arflamur takes on the ending flamurt arplumb turns into polumb ar, And from I what remember reading, they also try to interpret the Turkish word "Arnaut" as "those that never came back". For some reason, Greeks and Serbs seem incapable of understanding that the Arberesh of Italy, the Arvanitas of Greece, and the Arnauts of Turkey are Albanian immigrants, with only a slight name change according to country of destination. Anyway, for a treatment of some of the characteristics of Albanian language and position among Balkan languages, I bring you: Modals in the languages of Europe: a reference work By Björn Hansen, Ferdinand de HaanClicky, books.google.com/books?id=xtaAK_lMEZ4C&pg=PA229&dq=modals+in+albanian+walter+breu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mYp0T8CuIvSO0QGTibWAAw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
|
|
|
Post by groet on Mar 29, 2012 13:32:06 GMT -5
Reality Dysfunction/ So the theory is that Albanian survived in the mountains which is why vocabulary of plants from there is native. The question i have is why did the maritime words get lost its not like Albanians wouldnt leave there the mountains from time to time? How much of the mountain words are connected to Illyrian? I think a more inland region is more likely. Vocabulary related to mountainous region and life there is quite pure, as you mention plants of mountainous regions and pastoralist words. Albanian has Slavic and Latin loans in the vocabulary that has to do with agriculture and city life, this along with our pure "mountain vocabulary" gives us a hint that Albanians lived in the mountainous regions of the western Balkans and migrated to the lowland, more inland regions and only adopted a more sedantary lifestyle after moving out of the mountains where they were pastoralists. I believe we lived in the mountainous regions of western Balkans, where there's evidence for an Albanian presence much further than only the mountains of northern Albania, going all the way to the Dalmatian and Herzegovinian highlands; the first reference to the Albanian language is mentioned as being in the former f. e. These words were loaned before the shift which changed their form in Slavic in the 9th century but of which we kept the pre-shift form, meaning that we must have had contact with South Slavs before the 9th century to have loaned those words. That implies that we had been in the Balkans before the 9th century.
|
|
paul
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by paul on Mar 30, 2012 1:46:36 GMT -5
shejtani/ Fair enough i think them comparisons are useful for these discussions because it shows that such isolation is possible. But for the maritime words to be nearly completely lost the isolation wouldve been for much longer time.
Reality Dysfunction/
Ok deal.
Im not sure bout how important that is because even Italian has a similar character like pesce for fish and pescatore for fisherman but dont know if theyre related.
That cant be taken seriously.
I see that lot of the Illyrian connection is based on the claims of Cabej, is he the first Albanian linguist to talk of Illyrian connection or did he build on works from previous Albanian linguists? groet/
When and why do you think Albanians went to the mountains and when and why they return to lowlands? Can you show few examples?
|
|
|
Post by groet on Mar 30, 2012 2:53:39 GMT -5
groet/ When and why do you think Albanians went to the mountains and when and why they return to lowlands? 1. When and why: the Slavic invasion pressed them so hard they had to move to isolated mountains to survive as a people where there definitely must have been another "Albanian" population already, not necessarily that there were large movements into the mountains, the mountain population could have always have been there and they were the only ones to survive assimilation because they lived in isolated mountains. 2. When is very hard to tell; I'm too unknowing to answer to that. Why can be explained as a need to expand, the population becomes bigger and the territory can't support the larger population, or life became harder, not necessarily because of population growth but due to some natural problem like diseases. The lowland could perhaps offer better opportunities, but we know that even when they moved from the mountains they still kept their pastoralist life and only became sedantary after a long while. I don't have any examples, I have second and third hand knowledge on this. But I understand the logical conclusion linguists have come to: Slavic loans in Albanian with pre-9th century shift form shows that Albanian took some loans from Slavic before that time and must therefore have been in the Balkans before that time.
|
|
|
Post by realitydysfunction on Mar 30, 2012 4:43:48 GMT -5
I think there were a few other Albanian scholars that made the connection between Albanian and the Indo-European group during the mid 19th century, and the most likely candidate to them seemed the Illyrian; they were Jeronim DeRada, Vasko Pasha, Leonida Ndrenika and probably a few others. Cabej, however, is the big name; he studied and graduated in philology from a university in Vienna – with other notable linguists being Shaban Demiraj, Androkli Kostallari, and maybe a few others. John Wilkes in his book “The Illyrians”, which does the Albanians no favors, has the following passage. The Albanian language, which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom several have confidently proclaimed its origins from ancient Illyrian. In the Albanian vocabulary it is possible to detect something of the physical, social and economic conditions prevailing at the time of its formation, through the evidence of borrowing from other languages, including Latin and Slav. Those of the former relate to city-life, family structure, agriculture, plants and fruits of the plains and marshlands. The smaller number of Slav loans relate to dwellings, agriculture and cattle-rearing. Plant names of Slav origin suggest that contacts took place when Albanians dwelt in the forest zone between 600 and 900 meters in altitude, while the words relating to the products of higher altitudes, including milk, are Albanian. This implies a pattern of seasonal movement between pastures, similar to that recorded for the Dalmatian Mavrovlachs who journeyed to the Adriatic towns with cheese and wool to exchange for the invaluable salt. This pattern of existence explains the late entry of the Albanians in the historical record, during the years 1040 to 1080, when Arbanites are found serving in the imperial army. If the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a Romanized Christian population bordered by new Slav settlements on the north and south, then the ancestors of the historical Albanians were pastoral communities on the higher ground behind the plains. The tripartite linguistic division of the area has been recognized in some late medieval documents relating to the Shkoder region. I remember reading about the rhotacism that happened in Slavic and how Albanian preserved the early version but I can't seem to lay my hands on it at the moment. All I have is this and the attachment should give you some material to mull over for a little bit. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by groet on Mar 30, 2012 4:54:45 GMT -5
Speaking of those Slavic loans, I seem to have made a mistake, they're pre-6th century loans. It's either because of RD's mistaken Roman numerals earlier (x=10, IX=10-1=9?), or it's I who don't know Roman numerals.
|
|
|
Post by realitydysfunction on Mar 30, 2012 5:10:28 GMT -5
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Mar 30, 2012 6:37:36 GMT -5
Examples of pre-shift loans include words like kulë from Slav *kyla 'hernia', posullë from Slav *posyla 'bill, letter', llukë from Slav *lyko 'bast'. Compare these to a modern South Slav way of saying them (Serbian), namely kila or lika, you have a shift that went y--i, and if we'd loaned these words after the shift, they would've looked like this; kilë, posillë, llikë etc. There are also onomastic evidence, like the toponym Bushtrica, which otherwise would've been Bistrica.
This conflicts with the Serb theory that we came from Caucasus in the tenth century AD.
|
|
paul
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by paul on Mar 31, 2012 5:53:31 GMT -5
groet/
Why didnt the same happen when Romans, Goths and others invaded?
When is the first records of Albanians after Slavic invasion and other than unique mountain words is there any records that talk bout Albanians coming from the mountains?
Reality Dysfunction/ Albanian is an indo european language for sure but just like Greek it could have some non indo european elements.
Donnie/
It is also possible that these words were loaned outside of the Balkans unless they are only south Slavic words.
Bistrica comes from the Slavic word for pearl, are you saying the Biser/Bistra was once pronounced as Bustra or Bushtra in Slavic?
|
|
elemag
Senior Moderator
Posts: 369
|
Post by elemag on Mar 31, 2012 6:19:23 GMT -5
The Slavic word for pearl is biser. Bistrica comes from the old Slavic word "быстры" which means fast. Like in bistro
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Mar 31, 2012 6:29:55 GMT -5
No it's not. It's established among scholars that all Slav loanwords in our language derive from south Slav languages, either Serbocroatian or Bulgarian. And perhaps you also missed the part where I said this pre-shift evidence is also found in local toponymy, as in the Balkans, not in Russia or Poland. Bushtrica, by the Black Drin, is such a toponym. This means our ancestors were present and in contact with local Slavs in the territories around the Black Drin before the 9th century AD.
It was pronounced smth like *bystra, later rendered into bistra in south Slav dialects. The loanword bushtër in our language and toponyms like Bushtrica suggest we were in contact with the local Slavs ever since their first arrival.
|
|
paul
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by paul on Mar 31, 2012 8:36:01 GMT -5
elemag/
Yes your right my mistake, got mixed up.
donnie/
South Slavic languages are spoken even over the Danube not just in the Balkans. Can you show examples?
Are you saying that Bistrica is a pre-Slav name? Is it recorded anywhere like such? Dont you think it is a coincidence that it has a meaning in Slavic?
|
|