Post by Prussia1231 on Dec 15, 2013 3:04:20 GMT -5
Yes, the title says it all. The Armenian Massacre and Holocaust are beyond similar, it as if Hitler copied what the Turkish Government did. In both cases, there was a long standing 'question', the 'Jewish Question' and the 'Armenian Question'. Also, in both cases, there were rumblings before the main event--the Pogroms in Russia and the Massacre of 200,000 Armenians between 1878-1908. Furthermore, in both cases, the extermination was carried out under the cover of war.
Now this may seem like many other conflicts if not for the motive of the massacres. It was not to convert the people in question, it was not to assimilate them, it was not to extract oaths of loyalty, it was to destroy them. In both cases, you had a Complete Extermination Genocide put in motion, the only things that halted that from becomming a reality being, in the case of the Jews, the large numbers in the US, UK, North Africa and the Middle East and deep in the USSR, as well as individual countries seeking not to have their native Jewish population killed (Chiefly Hungary, but also Bulgaria and to a lesser extent parts of Romania such as Bukovina and Poland, especially the Galician Jews who had close ties with the Poles). For the Armenians, the only thing that prevented the WWI massacre from doubling was the battle of Sardarabad which, combined with the pressure of the British and Arabs in Syria and Mesopotamia, prevented a Turkish occupation of the core of Armenia and a subsequent program of annihilation.
Now firstly, let us get the numbers strait. As of 1915, there were roughly 1,850,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire (150,000 more in the Kars region of Russia which Turkey would annex, bringing the total to 2,000,000), 1,550,000 in Russia, 175,000 in Iran and 275,000 elsewhere, mainly in the US and in east-central Europe for a worldwide total of 3,850,000. Britannica's 1911 edition (Volume 2, pp 504) lists, as of 1900, 1,500,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1,000,000 in Russia, 150,000 in Iran and 250,000 Elsewhere. It should be noted that these figures are only or the 'Armenian Regions', as it is stated (Again, Volume 2, pp 504) that there were 970,656 Armenians in Russia, of whom 827,634 were in the governates of Erivan, Elizabethpol and Tiflis. If you add Baku (52,233), Kars (73,406) and Kutais (24,043) to that, you get an additional 149,682 Armenians for a total of 977,316 Armenians in Russia south of the Caucasus Mountains. This is despite the fact that the 1897 Russian Census lists a total of 1,173,096 Armenians within the borders of the Russian Empire, meaning that 195,780 live to the north of the Caucasus.
www.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdemoscope.ru%2Fweekly%2Fpril.php
Now it should be noted that only 850,000 Armenian Refugees were recorded following WWI, while only around 250,000 Armenians remained in Turkey, mainly in Constantinople and Smyrna, showing a net loss of 750,000, or 900,000 counting the Kars region. This does not include massacres carried out during 1918 after the Russian front collapsed and the Turks advanced into Russian Armenia, resulting in an additional 100,000 casualties, nor does it count the 250,000 massacred between 1919-1923 as they sought to defend, ironically, the most justly drawn frontiers of Armenia yet put forth:
www.cirota.ru/forum/images/62/62778.jpeg
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Armenian_population_map_1896.jpg
That gives a death toll of 1,250,000: 900,000 from 1915-1917, 100,000 through 1918 and 250,000 from 1919-1923, all in all, just under a third of the entire Armenian population murdered in under nine years. The roughly 2,000,000 Western Armenians were either murdered or deported from territories that they had lived in for roughly 2,500 years.
Western Armenia, justly defined, was roughly equal to, albeit slightly smaller than the vilayets of Bitlis, Erzurum and Van, which, combined had an area of 44,810 mi/116,057 km and, in 1910, a population of 1,473,800. What is interesting is that, as of 1927, the region in question had a population of only 1,007,551, just over 2/3 of the 1910 population, broken down as follows:
Artvin: 90,066
Beyazit: 104,586*
Bitlis: 90,631**
Erzurum: 270,426***
Kars: 204,846****
Rize: 171,667
Van: 75,329
Total: 1,007,551
*--Beyazit composes modern Agri and Idgir.
**--Including modern Mus.
***---Including modern Bayburt.
****---Including modern Ardahan.
Now this may seem like many other conflicts if not for the motive of the massacres. It was not to convert the people in question, it was not to assimilate them, it was not to extract oaths of loyalty, it was to destroy them. In both cases, you had a Complete Extermination Genocide put in motion, the only things that halted that from becomming a reality being, in the case of the Jews, the large numbers in the US, UK, North Africa and the Middle East and deep in the USSR, as well as individual countries seeking not to have their native Jewish population killed (Chiefly Hungary, but also Bulgaria and to a lesser extent parts of Romania such as Bukovina and Poland, especially the Galician Jews who had close ties with the Poles). For the Armenians, the only thing that prevented the WWI massacre from doubling was the battle of Sardarabad which, combined with the pressure of the British and Arabs in Syria and Mesopotamia, prevented a Turkish occupation of the core of Armenia and a subsequent program of annihilation.
Now firstly, let us get the numbers strait. As of 1915, there were roughly 1,850,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire (150,000 more in the Kars region of Russia which Turkey would annex, bringing the total to 2,000,000), 1,550,000 in Russia, 175,000 in Iran and 275,000 elsewhere, mainly in the US and in east-central Europe for a worldwide total of 3,850,000. Britannica's 1911 edition (Volume 2, pp 504) lists, as of 1900, 1,500,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1,000,000 in Russia, 150,000 in Iran and 250,000 Elsewhere. It should be noted that these figures are only or the 'Armenian Regions', as it is stated (Again, Volume 2, pp 504) that there were 970,656 Armenians in Russia, of whom 827,634 were in the governates of Erivan, Elizabethpol and Tiflis. If you add Baku (52,233), Kars (73,406) and Kutais (24,043) to that, you get an additional 149,682 Armenians for a total of 977,316 Armenians in Russia south of the Caucasus Mountains. This is despite the fact that the 1897 Russian Census lists a total of 1,173,096 Armenians within the borders of the Russian Empire, meaning that 195,780 live to the north of the Caucasus.
www.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdemoscope.ru%2Fweekly%2Fpril.php
Now it should be noted that only 850,000 Armenian Refugees were recorded following WWI, while only around 250,000 Armenians remained in Turkey, mainly in Constantinople and Smyrna, showing a net loss of 750,000, or 900,000 counting the Kars region. This does not include massacres carried out during 1918 after the Russian front collapsed and the Turks advanced into Russian Armenia, resulting in an additional 100,000 casualties, nor does it count the 250,000 massacred between 1919-1923 as they sought to defend, ironically, the most justly drawn frontiers of Armenia yet put forth:
www.cirota.ru/forum/images/62/62778.jpeg
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Armenian_population_map_1896.jpg
That gives a death toll of 1,250,000: 900,000 from 1915-1917, 100,000 through 1918 and 250,000 from 1919-1923, all in all, just under a third of the entire Armenian population murdered in under nine years. The roughly 2,000,000 Western Armenians were either murdered or deported from territories that they had lived in for roughly 2,500 years.
Western Armenia, justly defined, was roughly equal to, albeit slightly smaller than the vilayets of Bitlis, Erzurum and Van, which, combined had an area of 44,810 mi/116,057 km and, in 1910, a population of 1,473,800. What is interesting is that, as of 1927, the region in question had a population of only 1,007,551, just over 2/3 of the 1910 population, broken down as follows:
Artvin: 90,066
Beyazit: 104,586*
Bitlis: 90,631**
Erzurum: 270,426***
Kars: 204,846****
Rize: 171,667
Van: 75,329
Total: 1,007,551
*--Beyazit composes modern Agri and Idgir.
**--Including modern Mus.
***---Including modern Bayburt.
****---Including modern Ardahan.