Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Nov 10, 2007 19:18:38 GMT -5
Cold welcome for freed Turkish soldiers By Sarah Rainsford BBC News, Istanbul
The release of eight soldiers after two weeks held hostage by the PKK has not been celebrated in Turkey.
Turkish soldiers near border with Iraq - 28/10/2007 Turkey has massed soldiers on the border with Iraq Some here have branded them cowards - even traitors.
Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin told an audience at Ankara University on Monday that he could not be entirely happy about the soldiers' release.
They were captured in an ambush by the PKK close to the Iraqi border on 21 October. Twelve other soldiers were killed in what was the worst clash of its kind with Kurdish separatists in many years.
"No member of the Turkish armed forces should have found themselves in such a situation," the minister began.
"As a Turkish citizen I cannot accept the fact that they went with the terrorists that night. Our soldier is prepared to die if necessary when he is protecting the country."
'Shame!'
The soldiers' families kept a very low profile while their sons were held hostage. The justice minister's statement prompted one mother to break her silence.
The military did not want this debated in public, because people had already started asking questions about how the hell it happened Mehmet Ali Birand Turkish columnist "Why is our family honour being trampled upon just because my son was taken hostage?" demanded Aynur Atakul in one Turkish newspaper.
"I sent my son to his military service in a dignified manner. Would it have been better if he had died there?"
Many comments left on the webpage of Hurriyet, Turkey's most widely-read newspaper, suggest precisely that.
"Shame, shame, what shame! Eight weak soldiers. I wish they had stood and fought and become martyrs," reads one typical entry.
"What were they doing when their comrades were martyred beside them? If I were them I would be unable to look anyone in the face after this," says another.
There are only a few expressions of sympathy with the hostages.
Barely a mention
The October ambush itself sparked mass street protests across Turkey against the PKK, which is recognised as a terrorist organisation by the United States and the European Union.
PKK fighters PKK fighters strike Turkey from bases in northern Iraq When the coffins of the 12 soldiers were returned home, huge crowds turned out for their funerals. Newspapers and the airwaves were filled with calls for revenge strikes against PKK bases inside Northern Iraq.
But the eight missing men barely got a mention.
And when their release came, the official announcement - like that of their capture - was terse.
"During an armed clash with the PKK terror organization communication was cut with eight members of the Turkish Armed Forces," read a statement on the Chief of Staff's website.
"As of 4 November 2007 those eight soldiers have rejoined the Turkish Armed Forces," it read.
Unlike recent hostage crises involving Israeli and British military members, here in Turkey the government, military and media played this one very low-key.
One explanation is concern, in the current nationalistic climate, about the potential for clashes between Turks and Kurds in Turkish cities.
But some read more into the near-silence.
"The reflex of the mainstream press here is to turn a blind eye to anything they see as humiliating to national pride," explains Burak Bekdil, of the Turkish Daily News.
"The military did not want this debated in public, because people had already started asking questions about how the hell it happened," says respected columnist Mehmet Ali Birand.
"Something went dreadfully wrong for the soldiers to be taken by the PKK - and that reflects badly on the Turkish military," he says.
"The media played it down on purpose."
Voluntary surrender?
Four days after their release, the former hostages are still being questioned by military prosecutors. An already suspicious public is ready to believe the rumour that one of them has links to the PKK.
"Prosecutors will be focusing on whether or not the soldiers left with the PKK voluntarily," explains retired military judge Umit Kardas.
"If they did they could be charged with membership of a terrorist organisation."
"This has really shaken the military," he adds.
In a further blow to Turkish pride, pictures from the handover of the eight soldiers have now made their way into local newspapers.
They show three members of the Turkish parliament from the pro-Kurdish DTP party standing beside a poster of Abdullah Ocalan, the imprisoned PKK founder. In others, the MPs are seen greeting the hostage-takers with handshakes and kisses.
Though the DTP insist they were present for humanitarian reasons, to aid the soldiers' release, they are now being investigated on suspicion of supporting a terrorist organisation.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 10, 2007 20:54:17 GMT -5
If they are ethnic Kurds and deliberately surrendered as a mean of supporting PKK, I can understand if the mainstream Turkish society feels resentment for them, but also indifference to their release. However, if they surrendered as a result of panic, fear and because they saw no use in further resistance and carnage, then it's a little too harsh. It's easy to pass judgement and praise the dead while criticizing those who surrendered, while sitting comfortable from a distance and being in touch with the conflict only through newspapers or the television.
Everyone can act brave from one's living room ... but when it comes to actually being in a war, it's a whole different matter.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Nov 10, 2007 20:59:25 GMT -5
Looking at their pictures.. they didnt seem to be too upset at being captured. Still who knows..
One thing I can say is its compulsory for army service in Turkey so almost all men over 30 have been to the army and know how it is. Many in the SE.
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Post by suart on Nov 11, 2007 7:10:33 GMT -5
All i think is that they should be punished. As an ex soldier myself, I know that it is forbidden (every country's army law) to surrender.
Especially, in their situation, seeing their compatriots diing while fighting. Every turk,(exsoldier) knows that those 8 excaptured soldiers dishonoured their uniform.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 12, 2007 6:39:18 GMT -5
Well, as I said, the motive behind this questioning is really essential. If they're suspected for treason, i.e. having deliberately handed themselves over to PKK to give tne rebel Kurds a psychological advantage, then that's a whole different matter. In such a case, I very much understand people's anger and resentment.
Having served in the army doesn't mean you've automatically been in combat, let alone in the exact same situation as those captured soldiers ... otherwise, these tough talkers wouldn't have been able to criticize them, since they'd be resting in their graves after having chosen to die rather than surrender.
I mean, if these guys are accused of cowardice, then I think it's a little too harsh. I mean, what age are they? 18, 19, 20? They're still boys, children, and to expect of them to self sacrifice is quite alot. Sure, honour to those who can and who have. But unless you've been in a similiar, delicate situation, in which case you'd probably be dead, it's not really appropriate to criticize these lads. UNLESS, as I've said earlier, the accusations are based on some belief that they're collaborators of the PKK.
LOL. You having served an army, Suart, doesn't mean you've been in combat and thus entitled to talk as if you knew what this was all about.
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Post by suart on Nov 12, 2007 15:00:31 GMT -5
With a few words Donnie, this is all about not to surrender to the enemy. Before they go to combat (every soldier) they are trained, this is it! There are propriet laws about their punishment, they will get what they deserve
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 12, 2007 15:27:17 GMT -5
That's what happens when you have inexperienced 20 year-olds to fight against a quasi-army with years of experience in conducting assymetrical warfare and know the terrain of the region. The time to make the Turkish Armed Forces smaller, increase its fire power and flexibility, recruit more career soldier and use only them in the fight against the PKK has long come.
And like Suart said, those eight pricks who surrendered rather than fight and die with honor should be given the heaviest sentence possible for treason; life in prison without parole.
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 12, 2007 15:33:45 GMT -5
Looking at their pictures.. they didnt seem to be too upset at being captured. Still who knows.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Many Kurds have died fighting against the PKK, including regular soldiers, village guards and Kurdish civilians who refused to cooperate with the PKK, so I don't want to generalize, but it is interesting that out of the 8 abducted soldiers, 3 of them were from predominantly Kurdish cities, while 2 were from mixed cities (Adana, Gaziantep). Didn't those citizens born in western Turkey perform their military service in the east and those born in eastern Turkey in the west?
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Post by humbleman on Nov 12, 2007 16:35:41 GMT -5
Well I don't see what is wrong with surrendering if it ensures your survival, especially if the odds are against you at winning a fight. I think it is absolutely sick how to some people honour is still more important than someones life. Those sickos who judge the soldiers are the one who should have their heads examined not the soldiers themselves which are finding practical means of surviving. Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride!
Remember: LIFE ABOVE HONOUR
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 13, 2007 7:48:59 GMT -5
Such liberal bullcrap!
''Est sularus oth mithas''; Honour before life, Vaisva! I'd rather die than live at the expense of selling out my comrades-in-arm. The feeling of guilt would haunt me for the rest of my life. Nah! I am not that kind of person, Vaisva! I would fight even if I knew death was certain, even if I knew for sure that I won't be able to take any foes along with me to hell.
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Post by suart on Nov 13, 2007 11:17:26 GMT -5
Humble.... I think it is absolutely sick how to some people honour is still more important than someones life So you advise a life like a rabbit? ;D A soldier should not betray his country and countryman. What do you know about pride and honour?
I bet if someone p.sses on your face you would just wipe it off and, say thnx. Get lost moron.
Thank God the turkish army has its best laws to take severe meassures. Turkishness is based on Pride and Honour! Not on obey to live.
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Post by humbleman on Nov 13, 2007 14:15:58 GMT -5
''Est sularus oth mithas''; Honour before life, Vaisva! I'd rather die than live at the expense of selling out my comrades-in-arm. The feeling of guilt would haunt me for the rest of my life. Nah! I am not that kind of person, Vaisva! I would fight even if I knew death was certain, even if I knew for sure that I won't be able to take any foes along with me to hell. Well you are a weirdo to say the least. If my life was in danger I would do my best to minimise the risk towards my life, and if that means surrendering to my "enemy" then so be it. It isn't worth fighting for something that you know you're going to lose anyway. At the end of the day what good is honour or a pat on the back to me when I'm dead? And if they'll judge me and say that I should be ashamed of myself: I'll tell them to f::ck off. After all they wouldn't have been through what I have been through, so they have no right to judge! Equally I do not think anyone has any right to judge the soldiers, and they should be set free, unless they have breached their contract in which they should be duly punished; but even so the most they should get is being chucked out of the army. Your view of how things should be is romantic and all good and nice, but highly impractical and outdated for todays society! You don't understand at all. I am a highly practical man telling people how it is. Outdated emotionalisms such as "I must fight and then I will have honour" are impractical, unrealistic and leads to a worse society!
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 13, 2007 14:42:54 GMT -5
No, you're the weirdo Vaisva! Morals, patriotism, idealism and honour mean nothing to your type, which lacks any sort of identity, any sense of belonging. Everything is fine and dandy so long as your selfish personal interests are fulfilled. You bleeding heart liberal, you! You Milton Friedman, you! You Mehmet Altan, you! Your kind is commonly referred to as ''Quisling'', the type that collaborates with the enemy to further his own petty interests at the expense of betraying his own country. It is collaborators like you that facilitated the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans with such ease, it is your kind that opened their legs to the Nazis, it is your kind that ma niggaz refer to as ''Uncle Tom''. You Balaban Badera, you! You collaborator, you! I bet, if a husky rapist with a knife attempts to harrass your girlfriend, you will make a cost-benefit analysis, and leave the crime scene as fast as possible to save your life. Buh! Where is that That Ciganymous when you need him? Ciganymous, stop playing arse-grabbing with boys and come and put Vaisva in his place. Unguro, you too!
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Post by suart on Nov 13, 2007 15:20:49 GMT -5
Benne; you will make a cost-benefit analysis, and leave the crime scene as fast as possible to save your life. Buh! ;D ;D ;D Enough, almighty God ;D ;D
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 13, 2007 16:34:58 GMT -5
I was only joking and exaggerating, but isn't there a bit of truth in what I said, Suart? ;D
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 13, 2007 16:40:18 GMT -5
benettonsenetme is primitive!
HAaa!!!
Why should I die for honour? Jeez! Were in the 21st century but not you!
But of course
were dealing with Turks
more fanatic than Saudis,Pakistanis,Iranians,Al-Qaedas and gang.Those die for Islam
Turks die for Tanri Ataturk and Kemalism
and you say Turkey became secular? HA! Wake up benny! Its a new Islam you kiss!!!
Those troops that got killed,if they did it for honour,stupid for them.Sooo stupid,sooo tribal,Middle Eastern,sooo crazy,sooo backward.
This fight were soooo unneccesary.
If Turkey was a nation of honesty and justice,this fight would have never happened in the first place,and the PKK wouldnt have existed.
But what to do if you are led by the modern day Prophet Muhammad(Ataturk) asking you to go and jihad for nonsense!!!
HAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
benetton sooo dumb!
he should have go and fight it himself!!!
I know your not a soldier,but its YOUR country land to protect? Why dont you go and do something too? If Europe comes and invade and you sit on your fat ass thinking the troops will do everything,what happens if Europe over-superpowers your troops? Just sit there and wait for them to go die defending it till no more and then what?!
Turkish Kemalism Jihad hopefully like those "suicide bombers".
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 13, 2007 17:15:27 GMT -5
There are certain things that are more important than self preserval. Perhaps concepts such as honour, integrity and pride aren't longer the norm in the modern materialistic world, where mass consumtion, exploitation, unproportionate accumulation of wealth & obsession with superficial things (clothes etc) prevail in a more and more converging world. But the virtues mentioned still exist, and require respect and reverence.
For that sake, it isn't right to criticize some young lads for not being ready to sacrfice themselves. Some level of the virtues presented above are present at some level among atleast most people. But in most people, they aren't necessarely that strong so as to drive them to self sacrifice in the heat of battle. I mean, this reminds me of high school, when occasional tough talkers would talk about how they'd break someone's face if what happened to someone else happened to them. But when the hour of confrontation came, most didn't turn out to be the lions they presented themselves as.
So, unless you haven't been in a similiar situation, in which case you'd probably be dead and unable to participate in this discussion, it is immoral even to criticize those captives, let alone request the highest form of penalty for their decision. Honour and pride, of course. But above else, try to pursue such virtues personally; join the army instead of asking conscripts to not consider other options than dying when confronted by seemingly impossible odds.
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Post by ahristos on Nov 13, 2007 23:53:04 GMT -5
helicopters fire kurds in iraq turks u dont want peace u start the fire u gonna get trubles kurds have ask for talks u dont even let doctor to visit ocalan and u wond to get in in eu ha ha be humans first
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Post by suart on Nov 14, 2007 8:03:35 GMT -5
I must say that, there is alot of truth and rightenous said from you Benne.
Bellboy, you are jeleous and smiten from the turkish Pride, so be it, as long as people like you can fit as a shish kebab into the hands of the turkish nacionalists, be them the islamists or Kemalists. (as you refere). They are all for Turkiye and, they all chant: Hersey Turkiye icin!
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 15, 2007 4:38:38 GMT -5
okay
in a way,bennie does make a f*cking point.
But I must say I was really offended by it,I kept thinking what da f*ck?!
But I also hold on to what I say and believe in it regarding this dying for honour nonsense.
Plus its not Turkish pride,its Kemalist fanaticism.
You! Agreeing with benny,you are blinded! Because of some sort of kin you have them,you agree with them
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