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Post by radovic on Nov 17, 2007 22:12:11 GMT -5
yah maybe what u said about my country is true,but remember that the Chinese are the richest group here. Actually,in a way,Bosnia is a home for Bosniaks,so since this is being threathened by the Croats and Serbs,it does make them parasites.The latter two are turning it into another Yugoslavia. so what if they're the richest groups, they deserve the same rights as the malay if they are citizens of malaysia. Bosnia is a home for all citizens of Bosnia regardless of ethniticity or creed.
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Post by radovic on Nov 17, 2007 22:14:04 GMT -5
if Serbs and Croats love it there so much and "lived" there before 100 AD why did they destroy it 1992-1995 the Mostar bridge(Croats) the destruction of Sarajevo buildings - the library on fire, momo i uzeir towers, and many more setting fire to every house that was ordered by commanders and a lot more Simple it is a war. During a war you don't really care what happens since your fighting and trying to inflict damage on your enemy. Second, if a commander ordered a person to burn down a home the person would likely do it for fear of death or somekind of retribution (refusing to take orders is insubordination and is often times considered treason).
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 19, 2007 1:58:46 GMT -5
Yes,but Bosnia first and foremost must be about or based on the Bosniaks.
This state was specially for them
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Nov 19, 2007 9:42:57 GMT -5
^ No it wasn't. Where in the world did you get that idea?
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 28, 2007 8:15:19 GMT -5
well you have a Croatia home of the Croats,and Serbia the home of Serbs.Now you have Bosnia for Bosniaks!
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Japodian
Senior Moderator
Aber dojde donke
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Post by Japodian on Nov 28, 2007 19:07:59 GMT -5
Explain to me hellboy how many Bosniaks are there in Bosnia. About 1/3, while Serbs and Croats compromise other 2/3. Exactly the same attitude from Serbs in Kosovo gave rise to tensions and separation of Kosovo. You should look for example in Kazakhstan, although there are many Russians, around 25 % [sometimes there was more Russians than Kazakhs], the country gives all their citizens equal rights and all of them love their country, and there is no international hate.
Listening to such nationalism and chauvinism from you hellboy often makes me sick. Bosnia is not for Bosniaks only, but for Bosnians, be it Serbs, Croats or Bosniak, for all people of Bosnia. It is not some kind of special Bosniak only land. Do you understand what a term constitutive nation means? It means that all that three people [Bosniak, Serb and Croat] make one Bosnian nationality. But what can a person do when the whole nation is a victim or the divisional propaganda made by foreign policies.
"Bošnjak, kao Srbin i Hrvat, je samo narodnost, Bosanac je nacionalnost."
Let me explain on my personal experience. I have many friends who are Croatian Serbs and lived their whole lives in Croatia, have done nothing against her and love her as their home. For them Croatia, not Serbia, is their home. They adopted the way of living in Croatia, and although Serbs, not Croats, consider themselves to be Croatians [which is not always equal to being Croat]. If you and your nation [meaning nation, not ethnicity] finally accept it they have a bright future before them, if not you will still have problems and be European colony which need supervision because it can not control itself.
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Post by theblackswans on Nov 29, 2007 11:31:07 GMT -5
Explain to me hellboy how many Bosniaks are there in Bosnia. About 1/3, while Serbs and Croats compromise other 2/3. Exactly the same attitude from Serbs in Kosovo gave rise to tensions and separation of Kosovo. You should look for example in Kazakhstan, although there are many Russians, around 25 % [sometimes there was more Russians than Kazakhs], the country gives all their citizens equal rights and all of them love their country, and there is no international hate. Listening to such nationalism and chauvinism from you hellboy often makes me sick. Bosnia is not for Bosniaks only, but for Bosnians, be it Serbs, Croats or Bosniak, for all people of Bosnia. It is not some kind of special Bosniak only land. Do you understand what a term constitutive nation means? It means that all that three people [Bosniak, Serb and Croat] make one Bosnian nationality. But what can a person do when the whole nation is a victim or the divisional propaganda made by foreign policies. "Bošnjak, kao Srbin i Hrvat, je samo narodnost, Bosanac je nacionalnost." Let me explain on my personal experience. I have many friends who are Croatian Serbs and lived their whole lives in Croatia, have done nothing against her and love her as their home. For them Croatia, not Serbia, is their home. They adopted the way of living in Croatia, and although Serbs, not Croats, consider themselves to be Croatians [which is not always equal to being Croat]. If you and your nation [meaning nation, not ethnicity] finally accept it they have a bright future before them, if not you will still have problems and be European colony which need supervision because it can not control itself. Good point, Bosniaks who spout monolithic nationalism blur the lines between victims and agressors. The strength of the Bosnian nation is it's diversity not ethnic domination of one people over the others.
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Post by radovic on Nov 29, 2007 12:13:32 GMT -5
Explain to me hellboy how many Bosniaks are there in Bosnia. About 1/3, while Serbs and Croats compromise other 2/3. Exactly the same attitude from Serbs in Kosovo gave rise to tensions and separation of Kosovo. You should look for example in Kazakhstan, although there are many Russians, around 25 % [sometimes there was more Russians than Kazakhs], the country gives all their citizens equal rights and all of them love their country, and there is no international hate. Listening to such nationalism and chauvinism from you hellboy often makes me sick. Bosnia is not for Bosniaks only, but for Bosnians, be it Serbs, Croats or Bosniak, for all people of Bosnia. It is not some kind of special Bosniak only land. Do you understand what a term constitutive nation means? It means that all that three people [Bosniak, Serb and Croat] make one Bosnian nationality. But what can a person do when the whole nation is a victim or the divisional propaganda made by foreign policies. "Bošnjak, kao Srbin i Hrvat, je samo narodnost, Bosanac je nacionalnost." Let me explain on my personal experience. I have many friends who are Croatian Serbs and lived their whole lives in Croatia, have done nothing against her and love her as their home. For them Croatia, not Serbia, is their home. They adopted the way of living in Croatia, and although Serbs, not Croats, consider themselves to be Croatians [which is not always equal to being Croat]. If you and your nation [meaning nation, not ethnicity] finally accept it they have a bright future before them, if not you will still have problems and be European colony which need supervision because it can not control itself. Good point, Bosniaks who spout monolithic nationalism blur the lines between victims and agressors. The strength of the Bosnian nation is it's diversity not ethnic domination of one people over the others. So long as Bosnia is a civic nation and not defined as the nation state of one specific over the others, this is true.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 30, 2007 10:36:15 GMT -5
haha
Japodian and blackswans,I am Malaysian.
I understand that every citizen of a country should have equal rights.
When I said Bosnia for Bosniaks,have you heard of Israel??
Bosnia is a country that has large numbers of Bosniaks,Serbs,Croats and then Romas,Vlach.But Bosnia is based on the Bosniaks.
A home for them,about them.
Why do you think there is a Croatia and Serbia? A home for the Croats and Serbs.There,their culture can flourish.But in Bosnia,this is like,somewhat threathened because you have large numbers of Croats and Serbs.
Thats why I was ranting about them as parasites and that they should go back home.
But of course,thats a problem as Bosnia incorporated lands that are traditionally Serb and Croat with its inhabitants.
and radovic,on your civic nation thing,yes thats important,but a country is also a historical cultural identity.So you gotta follow the established one to bind together.
Japodian,your Croat Serb friend,sure.He feels home in Croatia.Born there,grew up there,its home.So your friend identifies with Croatia because of that.He or she is Croatian.But of Serbian ancestry and maybe still a little Serb in character.A hyphenated identity
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
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Post by MiG on Nov 30, 2007 12:08:10 GMT -5
You seem not to understand the situation in Bosnia that well dude. Read up on it, and the constitution of BiH, it will state that Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs are native to the nation.
That's a terrible way to make Bosnia.
No, it is not. The conventional long form is Republika Bosna i Hercegovina (Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina) not just Republic of Bosnia. It has an Inner-Entity Boundary Line, which divides the two sub-divisions of Republika Srpska (Republic of Srbska), and the Bosniak/Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or just Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Federacija Bosne i Hercegovine).
Politics in BiH are about compromise and understanding between the 3 constitutional peoples. It is not just about Bosniaks or for Bosniaks. It is for all 3 people, which are Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs.
Then how do you explain Ottoman presence in Bosnia? The culture still flourished there under Ottoman rule. If it is how you say it is, then everyone should be Turkish in Bosnia by now. Culture still flourishes, because the culture just like the language between Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks, is not that big of a difference.
They are native to the region you kook. They aren't parasites. You're stupid if you think that, no offence.
No, Bosnia used to be in the Kingdom of Croatia, than an Autonomus Kingdom (And at times an Independant one), up until the Ottoman Invasions. Herzegovina was always divided by the Serb Kingdom and the Croat Kingdom, up until the Ottoman Invasions.
A country is nothing in comparison to her former self, or her former "historical" boundaries. Another thing is that you cannot just ignore the ethnic makeup of regions dude.
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Post by hellboy87 on Dec 3, 2007 10:45:18 GMT -5
Jeez,I think you didnt realise that alot of what I said is what I would have liked it to be.
And I did say in my last post here that the Croats and Serbs were traditional inhabitants of Bosnia.
When I said Bosnia for Bosniaks,cuz they were a prosecuted group.Their own home would be their protection.
How did Bosniak culture flourish under Ottoman rule? Because there were no Turks there and that Bosniaks were Muslims?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Dec 3, 2007 17:50:42 GMT -5
That would mean you would have to carve up Bosnia.
1. It flourished, read up on it. The people accepted many parts of the customs and culture (such as style of music, and certain language/expressions).
2. The people accepted Islam as a religion, at the beginning it was because of the fear of extinction (forced), but eventually, it was accepted on a very cultural level.
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Post by hellboy87 on Dec 5, 2007 13:13:59 GMT -5
I remember something.A few months ago there was some kind of Bosniak cultural performance in my country and they did a dance that had no music accompanying it.
They said it was because during Ottoman times,the dance was banned.So they just danced without music so they wont be heard.And it ended up becoming like that:a dance without music.
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Post by yahadj on Dec 26, 2007 1:12:46 GMT -5
Well, if one of the ethnic groups is Muslim and the others Ortodox or Catholic Christian, then how freedom of practicing religion is supposed to bring those different groups closer? Kind of stupid expectation. But knowing where you stand and respecting the others believs is something different and is more realistic to achieve...
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 26, 2007 3:22:49 GMT -5
In Albania, the religious are united through a common belief in a single "God" inherited through a similar Abrahamic system(the idea that "we all believe in the same God, just in different ways). Theefore Muslims are encouraged to attend Christian holidays; while Christians are also encouraged to celebrate Muslim holidays together with Muslims. The system works out better in theory then in practice, as Muslim(mostly because they are dominant and more often, they are less religious) are the ones who attend Christian celebrations more so then vice versa. But it still works out pretty well. For instance, my family, both Muslim and Orthodox side, gathers together for both Bayram and Easter, along with Christmas. On a number of occasions, the Muslims of the family have gone to church with my Christian side(though the same has not happened vice versa, since the Muslims in my family have never been to a mosque themselves). Just recently, in another intermarriage, the agreement was that the wedding should not be held in a church. The child issue was never gone over since families rarely raise their children into religion.
News reporters make much of this, always mentioning how a certain religious holiday had a feeling of pluralism with in it. I dont expect Bosnia to do this though since we Albs have succeeded in making ethnicity separate from religious identification and since there are no other Alb groups(there is no particular Orthodox Christian Alb group for instance; nor a Muslim one). Thus there is a greater need to maintain unity.
Our system also doesnt bode well for those seeking ultimate Orthodoxy though since it relies heavily on the fact that Albs have never quite understood just what their religion meant and have a habit of picking and choosing what they like.
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Post by yahadj on Dec 27, 2007 12:18:44 GMT -5
Well, that is very interesting way of practicing religion. I am not sure if it really makes any sense. Abrahamic religions have their own interpretation and missions. Islam as the last one claims to be the most updated and most inclusive.
Principles of "The Trinity" of Christianity and "the One and Only God" of Islam are kind of difficult to reconciliate but you guys seem to be somehow able to do that. But I understand that it is mostly Muslims who are more flexible in religious tolerance.
However, I seriously doubt the religious consciousnes of the Muslims in Balkans. I wonder how many of them have ever read Kur'an with its meaning from beginning to end. There is no place for suspicions in that book. Everything is so clear...
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 30, 2007 14:48:57 GMT -5
^^ Im more interested in national unity before religious orthodoxy. In my country we say: blood before God. The principal of Albanianism also states: "Look not to the church or mosque, the religion of Albanians is Albanianism". It works out better when a state like Bosnia is concerned. The primary focus should be on maintaining national unity, and everything must be done to maintain that, even a possible re-writing or re-interpreting of the "Holy Books" in order to support it.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 3, 2008 1:15:14 GMT -5
Ok, now I understand better. Simply put you say nationality above any religion. Well, can we then just say no religion or just symbolic religion?
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 3, 2008 3:44:03 GMT -5
Destruction of faith is preferable, but impossible to achieve, and if you push a person too far, he will react negatively. Best to keep it down, but you should not go further than that I think.
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Fender
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Hardarse
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Post by Fender on Jan 3, 2008 4:32:00 GMT -5
Jeez,I think you didnt realise that alot of what I said is what I would have liked it to be. And I did say in my last post here that the Croats and Serbs were traditional inhabitants of Bosnia. When I said Bosnia for Bosniaks,cuz they were a prosecuted group.Their own home would be their protection. How did Bosniak culture flourish under Ottoman rule? Because there were no Turks there and that Bosniaks were Muslims? So what your saying is that you would prefer to have the other two groups pushed down as second class citizens, until they convert to become normal citizens. This is what Izetbegovic tried to do but was caned by both the Serbs and the Croats. Actually, it sounds like the Ottoman empire all over again. Like MiG said Hellboy, read up on the history and stop trying to inflame unecessary hatred. Yo really have no idea.
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