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Post by zgembo on Jan 24, 2008 3:20:15 GMT -5
My experience with Trebinje and Herzegovinian Serbs in general is that they're the most hardcore Serbs of all. I would actually support them becoming part of Montenegro for the simple reason it would further solidify the Serbian nucleus in Montenegro.
Serbian Sparta is not a myth. It was called as such by the Petrovic dynasty which ruled over Montenegro for centuries.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 24, 2008 3:53:32 GMT -5
They never once speak of a 'serbian sparta', if so please give a quote.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 24, 2008 8:20:44 GMT -5
the reference is modeled after the comparison that Njegos makes between his idol Milos (Obilic) and Sparta and upon the fact that Montenegro was the most resilient part of Serbdom (as was Sparta of ancient Hellenism). ------ O you, Milos, who does not envy you? You are the victim of your noble feelings, you, a mighty military genius, a terrific thunder that shatters crowns! The greatness of your noble knightly soul surpasses the immortal, valiant deeds of great Sparta and of powerful Rome. All their brilliant courageous endeavours your knightly arm places in deep shadow. Leonidas[64] and Scaevola,[65] can they match Obilic on any battlefield? ------- now references to serbdom of Montenegrins (Serb Spartans) ------- (section) DEDICATED TO THE ASHES OF THE FATHER OF SERBIA [1]
But the hero of Topola[11], the great, immortal Karageorge, saw many hurdles in his way, yet he reached his grandiose goal. He roused people, christened the land,[12] and broke the barbarous fetters, summoned the Serbs back from the dead, and breathed life into their souls. He is the Immortal's secret: he gave the Serbs the chests of steel and awakened the lion's heart in those who had lost their courage. The bands of the Eastern Pharaoh[13] turn to ice in fear before George[14]. Through George the Serbian hearts and arms were instilled with high bravery! Stamboul, the bloodthirsty father of the plague, trembles before him, even the Turks swear by his sabre - no other oath have they indeed. -------- Clear fascination with George 'Karadjordjevic' (George Petrovic of Montenegrin origin, first temporary ruler of free Serbs after many centuries of Ottoman occupation) and about Serbs being free. No reference to no other nation in such manner. No reference to Montenegrin George being different from Serbs he is going to rule over. ------ (section) DEDICATED TO THE ASHES OF THE FATHER OF SERBIA [1] Darkness hides from the light, and yet it only makes the light more bright[22]. The life-giving flame of your torch will shine for the Serb forever, and it will grow more luminous and miraculous for ages. Serbian women used to give birth to Dusan[23] and nurse Obilic[24], and now Serbian women give birth to such heroes as Pozarski[25], all wonderful and noble men! Serbdom breathes nobility now. Away from the Serbs, you vile curse - the Serbs have now fulfilled their vow![26] -------- Clear reference to Serbs as a nation and not religion (as TR states in his own willful ignorance) as one who refers to religion would not approach the Serbdom from strictly secular angle as above (clear focus above is on bravery and freedom). -------- (section) THE MOUNTAIN WREATH
A MEETING ON THE EVE OF WHITSUNTIDE ON THE MOUNT LOVCEN [27]
In Skenderbeg[37] beats Obilic's heart, but he perished as a forlorn exile. What can I do? Who is there to help me? There are few hands and all too little strength. I'am a lone straw tossing in the whirlwind, a sad orphan without friend or kinfolk. My people sleep a deep and lifeless sleep; no parent's hand to wipe away my tears. Above my head the heaven is shut tight; it does not hear my cries or my prayers. The world has now become a hell for me, people have turned into hellish spirits. O my dark day! O my black destiny! O my wretched Serbian nation snuffed out! I have outlived many of your troubles, yet I must fight against the worst of all![38] Clearly secular reference to his Serbian nation. --------- THE MOUNTAIN WREATH A MEETING ON THE EVE OF WHITSUNTIDE ON THE MOUNT LOVCEN [27] May God strike you, loathsome degenerates,[44] why do we need the Turk's faith among us? What will you do with your ancestors' curse?[45] With what will you appear before Milos[46] and before all other Serbian heroes, whose names will live as long as the sun shines? -------- Again reference to 'us' as Serbs and main focus being on secular things like honor and pride and not religion (as here he is referring ones he views as turning back on their serb heritage and not just religion). -------- Vuk Micunovic lies near the Bishop. He is pretending to sleep but can hear everything very well
VUK MICUNOVIC
Don't, my Bishop, if you have faith in God! What misfortune has come over you now that you do wail like some sad cuckoo-bird and drown yourself in our Serbian troubles?
------ (in addressing Njegos) 'Our' Serbian troubles has to refer to ones who view being Serbian as defining their own very existence. ------ OBRAD God, help us Serbs in all our misfortune; this, too, must be a good omen for us! ------ Doesn't say God help us retain our faith but help us in our misfortune (again focus on being free). ------ KOLO[50]
God is angry with the Serbian people because of their many mortal sins. Our kings and tsars trampled upon the Law[60]. They began to fight each other fiercely and to gouge out each other's very eyes. They neglected the government and state and chose folly to be their guiding light. Their servants ceased to obey their masters and washed themselves in the blood of their tsars. Our own leaders, God's curse be on their souls, carved the empire into little pieces and sapped the strength of the Serbs wantonly. Our own leaders, may all their trace vanish, sowed the bitter seed of disharmony and thus poisoned the entire Serbian tribe. ------- Again reference to Serbian people and Serbian tribe (can not be a more secular statements then people and tribe) followed with 'our kings' in continued explanation as to why God is angry on Serbian people. ____________________ I am not going to even continue further as I have other things to attend to versus such a hefty task. Also the Mountain Wrath is full of the references of Serbdom of Montenegrins (link bellow). In fact Montenegrins would have had to have been Serbs (not to mention that north Montenegro was originally part of Rascia while Zeta was also viewed as a Serb state and not to mention Montenegro, perhaps most Serb of any) as a large segment of Serbs across western Balkans are derived by origin from Montenegro and this has always been used by them as definitive proof their serb ancestry. www.rastko.org.yu/knjizevnost/umetnicka/njegos/mountain_wreath.html
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2008 5:35:52 GMT -5
The whole Milos and Spartans part does not prove a thing
In fact you did not prove much, I have said it once and will say it again, Njegos wrote books of FICTION, and POEMS
If he wrote about Serbs or painted them in a good light, it does not affect the views of the common Montenegrin.
And at the same time, I can quote where Njegos speaks of the Montenegrins as his people, and ethnicity.
This part of the Gorski Vijenac has been proven to be plagirized by Milorad Medakovic, a serbian writer who was in Montenegro at the time.
If you seriously believe that a book of fiction can speak for the history and ethnos of an entire nation then you seriously have something coming, and that is the reality that you are wrong.
"No krsna i siromasna Crna Gora ne haje ni za Nemanje, ni za Murate, ni za Bonaparte; svi oni bise pa i preminuse, i mac svoj o Crnogorce djekoji opipase, pa nestase a Crna Gora ostade dovijeka i strasnoga suda, u svojoj volji i slobodi..." – Njegos
GOLUBICE 1843-44
Here he speaks of the Nemanjic's (Serbs) as occupators in the same vein as the Turks and French
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Post by radovic on Jan 25, 2008 10:24:45 GMT -5
^ More B.S. by terrorreign.
This is just like when sh1sonic asked you why Njegos didn't use those 3 extra Montenegrin sounds. And what did you say:
"Njegos didn't write as he spoke"
An absurd defence and you denying the fact that Njegos didn't speak a supposed/claimed "Montenegrin language" but in Serbian.
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Post by zgembo on Jan 25, 2008 11:22:04 GMT -5
In Marko Miljanov's book "Cojstvo i Junastvo" there is an excerpt which says: U devetnaestom veku Crnu Goru nazivali smo srpskom Spartom, a to nije bas slucajno uporedjenje. Sa tih prostora su Dorci dosli na Peloponez i izgradili Spartu. Prilikom jedne proslave Matice Srpske u Novom Sadu, knjaz Nikola je poslao telegram ove sadrzine: "Srpska Sparta - Srpskoj Atini!"www.geocities.com/sulajkovski/cojstvoijunastvo.html
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Post by terroreign on Jan 25, 2008 16:54:26 GMT -5
That is not written in Cojstvo i Junastvo, that was written by a serbian nationalist from Belgrade.
"Dr Jovan I. Deretic - Anticka Srbija"
He obviously has problems and has his own agenda...
Well in case you didn't know, Vuk Karadzic's major law of the Serbian language was that it must be "written how it is spoken"
Before the reform this didn't happen, and Njegos didn't need extra letters to make the sounds, because he did not write how he spoke.
And if you didn't know, Serbs had to translate Njegos' literature, so that the people in Belgrade, ect, could understand it.
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Post by zgembo on Jan 25, 2008 18:10:21 GMT -5
Bjezis od istine, izrode... you can't disprove that Nikola didn't refer to Montenegro as Serbian Sparta!
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 25, 2008 18:37:17 GMT -5
Any reason for disregarding the comparison with Rome? The greatness of your noble knightly soul surpasses the immortal, valiant deeds of great Sparta and of powerful Rome. All their brilliant courageous endeavours your knightly arm places in deep shadow. Leonidas[64] and Scaevola,[65] can they match Obilic on any battlefield? There are just as many invocations of Rome as of Sparta. www.livius.org/mu-mz/mucius/scaevola.html
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 25, 2008 23:08:21 GMT -5
Any reason for disregarding the comparison with Rome? With all do respect to the eternal glory that was and always will be Rome the comparison was not made as Montenegrins were referred to as times as 'Serb Spartans' and not as 'Serb Romans', 'Serb Praetorians' etc. Also, Rome was powerful which Montenegro never was. They were a small conservative warlike segment of local population that viewed freedom and honor as paramount just as Spartans were and did (freedom and honor) - hence the comparison between the two as being most appropriate.
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 25, 2008 23:35:35 GMT -5
My point was that the above poem cannot be taken as Njegosh's identification of Montenegro with Sparta. Maybe that happens elsewhere, but not in the quoted text.
What Njegosh is doing is writing an ode to Milosh Obilich, and compares him to two well known heroes of antiquity: one Greek, the other Roman. Both of these heroes demonstrated strength and courage which benefited their side in war. The argument that the comparison with Rome should be disregarded because, unlike the Roman Empire, the Serbian state was small at the Battle of Kosovo, does not stand up. The explicit comparison with Scaevola rules that out. Rome was a small republic at the time, i.e., the 6th century BC, and in danger of eradication by the Etruscans. Scaevola, through his courage and honor, was one of the heroes that helped save it.
So, I don't think Njegosh's poem, as quoted above, can be taken as evidence that he thought of Montenegro as Sparta. Maybe others did.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 26, 2008 0:34:40 GMT -5
When someone thinks of Rome one thinks primarily of Empire and Caesar (which is why Rome is known for to begin with far removed from anything else) while when someone thinks of Sparta one thinks of Leonidas and Thermopile. Montenegrin history (resilient oasis of free Serbdom) is far more comparable to Spartan traditional image (resilient oasis of free Hellenism) then the Rome's traditional image (mighty Empire controlling much of the known world at the time).
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 26, 2008 0:50:19 GMT -5
All that's very true, but in this poem Njegosh is clearly thinking of Scaevola's Rome. The early period of Rome is not as widely known, but to a classically educated person like Njegosh, Scaevola's Rome was the brave underdog.
That's precisely why he makes the comparison. It's not senseless hyperbole, as it would have been had he compared Lazar and Milosh's Serbia to Caesar's Rome.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 28, 2008 5:48:55 GMT -5
Aadmin, you read too much off Njegos.org, this "oasis" is a myth and has been disproven again and again
If its an oasis of "free serbdom" why does Njegos never speak of Sveti Sava? Simple answer, because montenegrins did not pray to sveti sava, and they kept their land free of ALL invaders, serbs, turks, french, ect.
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