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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 11:54:56 GMT -5
Let’s talk seriously if you would prefer : I ts about Dodona,22km south of Janina, between Tomaros and Manoliassa mountains; Robert Temple What place could be more out of the way than Dodona in Greece? It was geographically outside the sphere of the civilized world of the Greeks - somewhat more north and more west that any Greek could call comfortable. Here you have a example ,wich can illustrate coping of Deukalionit myth another author/archeologist, H.W.Parke says:
The Ark of Noah is a concept which is identical with that of the Ark of Deukalion and both are magical ships in which sit 'those who come out of the womb'. And both arks, but particularly that of Deukalion are concepts related to the Argo. In the Epic of Gilgamesh the Ark Of Noah in the Middle East (name Noah even existed) was the Ark of Ziusudra or the Ark of Utnapishtim. The Greek Ark of Deukalion came to rest after the Flood at Dodona where Argo received its guiding timber. Therefore as Professor Curys Gordon points out, Dodona must have been located further north, at the realms of the 'barbarians' as Greeks would name their northern neighbours
Servius who is Virgil’s commentator says;
According to Servius, the ancient commentator on Virgil, Dodona is so out of place for the entire Greek sites that the only explanation is that Greek Mythology 'stole' this from the northern land, belonging to the tall Illyrians.
In his book Greek Oracle, H.W. Parke makes the remarkable comment: The whole Greek Mythology is a refined version of older sources. A big part of it was already there while taking a land that wasn't theirs. The rest just came from ancient sources belonging to Sumer, Babylon and Egypt.
Rendel Harris which quotes Herodotus (his information being derived from the priests at Delos): that the sacred things were brought by the Hyperboreans wrapped in straw to the Scythians and that then they passed from tribe to tribe westward to the Adriatic; from thence they are carried south to Dodona, from Dodona they are carried eastward to the Malian Gulf where they pass into Greeks hands
Associations of Delphi with the Sirius tradition are not limited to the Canopic Egyptian Hercules's visit, the carrying of an Argo in procession and the desire to claim the Ark Of Deukalion instead of Dodona, claiming it as their tradition
In my opinion >Herodotus is censured from the greeks or…..
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Mar 8, 2008 12:06:08 GMT -5
I can only say one word ......
Pelasgian
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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 12:49:32 GMT -5
….continued
However the world is not stupid anymore to believe in the Greek wishes…..in the York University of Toronto The War of Troy doesn’t mach with Iliad, considering imagination of Homer….
'The Truth of Troy' showed us that there was a war at Troy, but it wasn't over love. It was a 200-year-long conflict between two superpowers of the late Bronze Age -- the Myceneans and the Hittites -- over greed and territory. As a major port on a significant trading route in a strategic location, Troy (or Wilusha) was caught in the middle.
Perhaps the Iliad version has endured and been popular because it tells us a story about humanity that (though tragic) is noble, comprehensible, and about individuals. But the
Maybe Homer gave us a past as we wish it was... a vision of humanity as we wish we were.
But archaeology gives us the past as actually was... and a vision of humanity as we
actually are…
Plutarch accused Herodotus: He is guilty because he used not real history to fall down more solemn truth about greek religion This looks like kind of key……. Herodotius named all Dodona province pelasgus and Barbers….. With Dodona were connected to symbols: The eagle with two heads, found by Karaponas, 1875, for antic people symbolized the messenger of Zeus.
Why Dodona was destroyed in 219 B.C……
"The chief interests of the excavation centres in the smaller antiquities discovered, which have now been transferred from M . Carapanos's collection to the National Museum in Athens. Among the dedications, the most interesting historically are a set of weapons dedicated by King Pyrrhus from the spoils of the Romans, including characteristic specimens of the pilum . The leaden tablets of the oracle contain no certain example of a response, though there are many questions, varying from matters of public policy or private enterprise to inquiries after stolen goods . The temple of Dodona was destroyed by the Aetolians in 219 B.C., but the oracle survived to the times of Pausanias and even of the Emperior Julian(331-363)..."
C . Wordsworth, Greece (1839); Constantin Carapanos, "Dodone et ses ruins Paris"1878
And after that came Ilyria with a lot of unknown things….
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Post by bordura on Mar 8, 2008 17:20:34 GMT -5
I think that no civilization has come out of absolute zero. It is natural that myths, achievements, civilizations a have different strata embodied on them. What Dodona was? Well publicly it is known as Greek. Scientifically also as Greek. Now if some scientist, historian, archaeologist, etc discovers other contributions from previous or parallel civilizations this should not called as Greeks stole it! It is like pasta guys. Marko Polo brought it from China, and Chinese had created the string from dow long before, but Italians created "The Pasta". So as long as discussion is about finding other contributors or origins of Dodona it is cool, but doing it to prove as someone stole it, that is wrong!
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 18:55:25 GMT -5
The is the whole point of some of these threads to prove Greeks stole it and Albanians had it..... One can argue Jesus and the 12 apostles was based on Zeus and the 12 Gods.... Maybe Christianity stole it from the Greeks who in turn stole it from someone else? As far as Greeks traveling to far places .... it's a fallacy that they were uncomfortable when they were outside the Greek realm.... Greeks had set up colonies as far as Iberia, which they named, to North Africa....
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Post by tripwire on Mar 8, 2008 19:03:33 GMT -5
All religions were based on the explanations of the universe through astrology. The star of David was symbol of the worship of the planet saturn. AstroTheology
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 19:11:09 GMT -5
Why don't you research Illyrian history and their writings? Guess what ... you'll be looking forever for it. You are lucky guys like Herodotus wrote something about Illyrians or no one would have know they existed....
There is always some crackpot and semi respected historian out there that tries to go deeper... and guess what.. it's always the enemies of Greeks that hop on to it like a 2 bit hooker giving free 'rides'.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 19:13:02 GMT -5
Hey psssssst.... Troy was not about love but about trade... hope you get to know something everyone and his grandma already is aware of....
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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 20:18:02 GMT -5
I'm comfortable you don't like it....but we always will challenge your arrogance....hahahaha
Ok, when you asked where was you guys from 300-1081, I gave you a part from Catholic encyclopedia, which is still not enough. You were looking for opinions here you have. I can add more and more this is just a part of it…..because it’s not me, but is the entire world that doesn’t believe in that fiction. But the history belongs to Politics so, can be change anytime that be needed.
Now something you should understand…there was no Greece with colonies …was Byzantine Empire organized in different hierarchy, with Thrones going from different part of it and the last one is some were in “Siberia”(one was the Justian dynasty too)It’s a different meaning from now. It’s not like Albania or Greece.
It’s true ILLYRIAN-ALBANIANS were traitors, like you mentioned in some threats. Since Jusitan was called the last Imperator of restoring the Roman empire…He had different view from the others, he simple was toward the Christian Europe, trying to separate Ilyricium from Byzantine. That’s a part, has missed in the history of Bizantine Empire, they didn’t like it. Now it is the same problem with Albanians.TRAITORS. It’s not a Greece problem It’s a old problem.It is a part agreed between east and west when the west was in difficult situation. You just used a chance to enjoy for about 100-years, a great filling as greeks. However in the new Europe Empire everything will work in different way.
It’s a big snow storm here….I have nothing else to do….
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 20:52:42 GMT -5
I am an archaeologist and what this idiot is saying about Dodona is quite incorrect! First of all Herodotus gives a specific story as to how Dodona came about and it does not match the one quoted. Second of all the assumptions made by H.W. Parke is totally unsubstantiated by any archaeological evidence and I have no idea how he came to those conclusions considering he never gives any "archaeological evidence" to support is assumptions. Where he get's the notion of Hyperboreans I have no idea. No one really knows what the Illyrians looked like. Finally one thing all the various groups who came to be known as Greek had in common was that Dodona and Delphi were both the most sacred spots in all of their world. The Illyrians did not worship at Dodona, nor did the Thracians. It was only those who worshiped the Olympian Gods who held those places sacred.
Atlantis,
Do you have the source for this article? I would really like to see the original.
Rex,
You are correct when you say it was Pelasgian shown easily by the Ancient Greeks calling the Oracle of Pelasgian Zeus.
Now as for who the Ancient Greeks were. The ancient peoples who we now consider Greek/Hellenes were not one people but many were unrelated. They were the Achaean, Pelasgians, Epirotes, Athenians, Mycenaeans, Minoans, Eubeans, Macedonians, Dorians, etc, etc,. The one thing these people had in common was a common religion and a common language even though the languages may not in the early years be mutually intelligible. Now the period I am talking about is during the Mycenaean period and through the Ancient Greek Dark Ages(1150-800 B.C.E). At the emergence of the Archaic Period these people started trading and colonizing other territories away from their home areas to slowly change into what we encounter as Greeks during the Classical Period(Late 6th and 5th centuries B.C.E). Even at that time not all the 'Greek' were related. We still had differences in Mythical founder heroes, Regions of origins, etc. But what made these people related as what we define as Greek is their worship of the Olympian Gods with each having their own local deities, their language with 4 main dialect groups and their cultures. It wasn't until the time after Alexander that the various groups we called Greek were actually merged into one common ethnicity, Greek. So when discussing the ancient peoples who inhabited the Balkans peninsula one must first understand what time frame they are discussing and which specific group they are discussing. An Athenian is not a Spartan since both belong to different dialect groups and both had different founding heroes. This is the same for all the Greeks unless they belonged to the Dorian language group or the Attic language group or the Northwest language group. If they had a common dialect then they were related.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 20:54:47 GMT -5
There is not one bit that testifies to your existence from 100 to 1300.... I have searched the libraries and interweb for something .... all I get is a maybe this and maybe that.... and a light sprinkling..nothing concrete.... now people like that should not question the origins of this worlds greatest civilizations...
Of course I don't like it...usually I don't like bullchit, deceptions and lies.... and I am sure if the shoe was in your foot you wouldn't like it either ...
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 21:05:11 GMT -5
I'm comfortable you don't like it....but we always will challenge your arrogance....hahahaha Ok, when you asked where was you guys from 300-1081, I gave you a part from Catholic encyclopedia, which is still not enough. You were looking for opinions here you have. I can add more and more this is just a part of it…..because it’s not me, but is the entire world that doesn’t believe in that fiction. But the history belongs to Politics so, can be change anytime that be needed. Now something you should understand…there was no Greece with colonies …was Byzantine Empire organized in different hierarchy, with Thrones going from different part of it and the last one is some were in “Siberia”(one was the Justian dynasty too)It’s a different meaning from now. It’s not like Albania or Greece. It’s true ILLYRIAN-ALBANIANS were traitors, like you mentioned in some threats. Since Jusitan was called the last Imperator of restoring the Roman empire…He had different view from the others, he simple was toward the Christian Europe, trying to separate Ilyricium from Byzantine. That’s a part, has missed in the history of Bizantine Empire, they didn’t like it. Now it is the same problem with Albanians.TRAITORS. It’s not a Greece problem It’s a old problem.It is a part agreed between east and west when the west was in difficult situation. You just used a chance to enjoy for about 100-years, a great filling as greeks. However in the new Europe Empire everything will work in different way. It’s a big snow storm here….I have nothing else to do…. Actually Atlantis you are confusing time periods! The Greeks did colonize the entire Mediterranean and the Black Sea coast as early as the 9th century B.C.E. The Byzantine Empire was a much later period almost 1300 years later and it wasn't called Byzantium at the time but the Western Roman Empire. By the time the "Byzantines" came about the various Greek groups had merged into on homogeneous group called Hellenes. There is a reason why the Western Roman Empire changed it's official language to Greek by the 7th century! Because the predominant group in that realm of the Byzantine Empire WAS GREEK! So tell me if the Greeks are only a new creation of the early 19th century then what exactly happened to those millions of Greeks who existed? Did they just disappear or did they some how miraculously get totally absorbed into various minority groups? This is highly unlikely otherwise the Greek language would have disappeared and the official language of the Byzantine Empire would have changed to a Slavic dialect. But it didn't so what would logic dictate about that? That the Greeks were the ones to dominate and absorb the minority groups of the peninsula. One final observation. Why is it if the modern Greeks are not the descended from the Ancient Greeks why is it that they still look the same as many Sicilians or Neapolitans or other Southern Italians who originated from the colonies of Magna Greacia? I would really like to hear an explanation for that!
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 21:06:54 GMT -5
Almost forgot what is this about the Byzantines trying to separate Illyricum from Byzantium?
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 22:02:07 GMT -5
I have read that the Byzantine Empire had nearly 50 million inhabitants.. with over half of them Greek.... no wonder so many people look Greek... now I know where these people went...
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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 22:07:29 GMT -5
Ok Im not a archeologist could be a musician, I like playing piano, Shopen’ Mozart…. but in most of the sources seems to be a lot of questions without answer…I wrote once you have the names of each (says)….I just collected them one by one …it’s not me…them could be idiots, maybe, I have no any relation with them
Cold be Greece, could be Babylon, that’s not important(based in some guess mention above……for now, we are talking about Justianian the great some scorches could be wrong but he was a Illyrian(Catholic encyclopedia) but no worry about that.. It is my opiniot. You have a lot to talk above ,next time we’ll talk about language, I have more arguments I’m feeling tired I need some raki now….
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 22:14:16 GMT -5
;D
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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 22:16:10 GMT -5
Another thing do not worry what I believe I study the same story as you did …..and when I had no questions I was sleeping well …..but now I’m getting pills curing Insomnia.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 8, 2008 22:20:01 GMT -5
;D You must pay me 10c /post and decorated from bringing grek forum in serios condition
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 22:48:44 GMT -5
Actually it is uncertain what ethnicity Justinian was. All we know is that he was from a small town called Tauresium which is located about 20 miles south of Skopje. The are was under one of the provinces of Illyricum. But that area was only added to the province and was traditionally in Dardania. In ancient times Skopje had a high population of Greeks as well. So his ethnicity will be unknown. What is known is that Taurus is Greek for bull so it is a Greek name. Also his middle name was Petrus(Petros) which is a Greek name. So who knows, maybe was was Greek-Illyrian, Greek or Illyrian or even Dardanian? It would be impossible even through archaeology to prove either way. Unless someday a lost works on his origins is uncovered in an excavation.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Mar 8, 2008 22:52:45 GMT -5
In ancient times Skopje had a high population of GreeksBS (anyways ...those kind of bs remarks just give the fyromanians more fodder power) I have been in Justinians birth town in Macedonia ...its fully Albanian today as always start from Justinian and work your way down all the way to Constantine the great and then to Diocletian ...and you find all the answers of who and what they were.... waist some time and research ....if not ...down below is the answer in a nutshell.... lower a bit lower.... answer : Illyrians at service to the Roman Empire ....
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