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Post by pelasgian on Dec 11, 2007 5:38:48 GMT -5
Here's another debate that I personally believe needs some attention.
We have here two contradictory views.
1 Serbs seriously believe in "Kosovo, the heartland of Serbia".
2 Each time Albanians hear this they laugh.
So these are two believes with extreme ends, but the reality could be somewhere in between.
Here I will put across few points that hopefully will kick start the discussion.
- In 1389 war Serbs, Albanians fought against a common enemy Turks. This is what Serb historians missed. Albanians at that time were Christian, not to be confused with todays majority Muslim population.
- If Kosovo truly were a heartland of Serbia, it would have been the most populated by the Serbs, most developed and prosperous Serbian region.
- Since Serbs took over the Kosovo (after WW2), no Albanian from Albania was allowed to leave or enter Albania therefore not a single Albanian from Albania migrated to Kosovo ever since. While at this time Serbs from Serbia proper were free to come and live in Kosovo if they wished to do so. After all it was one single state, called Yugoslavia.
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Post by suart on Dec 11, 2007 8:25:11 GMT -5
1 Serbs seriously believe in "Kosovo, the heartland of Serbia". Because they have facts of their heritage culture all over Kosmet which, the siptars do not have. Kosmet for Serbia is like Mecca for the moslems or Jerusalem for Palestinians and jews.
What have the siptars got as proof? this / Serbs, Albanians fought against a common enemy Turks. It means, as Drashkovic notes: you were serbs and, later siptarized, there was no siptar identity in the balkans till the ottomans arrived.
If you took part against the turks then, you were all serbs. How did it happen that only you became brothers with the turks and not the serbs? How did it happen that only the sips accepted the honors of the Ottomans and not the serbs?
How did it happen that the serbs worked for the sips as a low class? where is the proof that the sips existed in that region before the Battle, where is you heritage?
The only proof you might have is the life of a monkey upon the tree.
Each time Albanians hear this they laugh. As the seek patients lock in the mental institution!
- If Kosovo truly were a heartland of Serbia, it would have been the most populated by the Serbs, most developed and prosperous Serbian region.
What happened to Constantinople with the Ottoman arrival?
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Post by zgembo on Dec 11, 2007 10:21:32 GMT -5
Kosovo was the heartland of Serbian medieval Empire while it was at its peak (in the 13th-14th centuries). That Empire and that dynasty are the foundations upon which the modern Serbian national identity is built.
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Post by engers on Dec 11, 2007 10:45:18 GMT -5
I think this is FAIRYTALE, especially when you said "modern Serbian national identity" because there is nothing modern.
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Post by adlun on Dec 11, 2007 10:51:39 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Dsurazal
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 174
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Post by Dsurazal on Dec 11, 2007 11:58:54 GMT -5
I think this is FAIRYTALE, especially when you said "modern Serbian national identity" because there is nothing modern.
What do you expect? Serbia is being strung out by the EU and US and they are forced to focus on there heritage due to the unlawful land robbers that are trying to separate a historical, rightfully owned piece of Serbia. Do you really expect them to become modernized under such conditions? Not that there's anything wrong with not being modernized. I wouldn't trade my heritage for modernization either.
If you really want to see where Serbia would be if there land wasn't being stolen from them, take a look at the progress Montenegro is making. They would be somewhere in this area if they didn't have to deal with this situation.
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Post by pelasgian on Dec 11, 2007 12:54:04 GMT -5
So can we conclude that nobody can answer these simple questions.
1 Why Kosovo has not been populated by the serbs more then in other parts of Serbia?
2 Why it was the most under-developed region in former Yugoslavia.
3 Why it was always populated by the majority Albanian population?
4 Why Serbian historians failed to mention that there were Albanians fighting against Turks in the battle of Kosovo Polje.
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Post by radovic on Dec 11, 2007 13:31:35 GMT -5
So can we conclude that nobody can answer these simple questions. 1 Why Kosovo has not been populated by the serbs more then in other parts of Serbia? 2 Why it was the most under-developed region in former Yugoslavia. 3 Why it was always populated by the majority Albanian population? 4 Why Serbian historians failed to mention that there were Albanians fighting against Turks in the battle of Kosovo Polje. 1. simple. migrations out of kosovo and at times expulsions. 2. simple. Albanians leaders were corrupt and they couldn't use the large amounts of money they received from the rest of Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia to develop. Unlike Bosnia, Montenegro and FYROM who developed very well. 3. It wasn't always Albanian majority. Albanian became majority in the late 19th century after Serbian migrations and expulsions from Kosovo. 4. Historians say that. Serbs when talking about it do not.
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Post by cando4u on Dec 11, 2007 13:36:51 GMT -5
"take a look at the progress Montenegro is making."
Thanks to separating from Serbia .
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Post by radovic on Dec 11, 2007 14:38:18 GMT -5
"take a look at the progress Montenegro is making." Thanks to separating from Serbia . (you going to delete this also?) says who. Most of those developments would have occured regardless of whether Montenegro was independent or not. The massive investment by Peter Munk was planned in 2005 (a year before independence). Most investments have been planned for sometime. The only thing independence actually did is raise land prices even higher. In fact their has actually been a decrease in investment planned due to the large increase in prices. So one could argue that it cost Montenegro's economy negatively. not only that but montenegro lost a potential source of income throught the customs regime that existed in SCG.
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Dsurazal
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 174
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Post by Dsurazal on Dec 11, 2007 14:54:26 GMT -5
I agree with radovic. But I also think due to the issues in Kosovo, there are limited investment opportunities. If Serbia did not have to defend what is rightfully their's all the resources and ties could go to progress the country into something more. But they are taking the right course none-the-less.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 11, 2007 15:46:04 GMT -5
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Post by zgembo on Dec 11, 2007 17:30:00 GMT -5
I think this is FAIRYTALE, especially when you said "modern Serbian national identity" because there is nothing modern. I think Albanians are the last ones to speak of adapting to modernity. In any case, modern means simply present-day in this context.
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Post by zgembo on Dec 11, 2007 17:49:31 GMT -5
So can we conclude that nobody can answer these simple questions. 1 Why Kosovo has not been populated by the serbs more then in other parts of Serbia? 2 Why it was the most under-developed region in former Yugoslavia. 3 Why it was always populated by the majority Albanian population? 4 Why Serbian historians failed to mention that there were Albanians fighting against Turks in the battle of Kosovo Polje. 1. There are a lot of reasons, but it all starts with the fact the Great Serb Migrations of the late 17th and early 18th centuries impacted Kosovo specifically. 2. Generally, the least developed parts of Yugoslavia were those that remained under the Turks the longest (and that's Kosovo, which was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1913). 3. Virtually all the place names in Kosovo are Slavic, thus its impossible to claim Kosovo has always been majority Albanians. The Albanian families that care to retrace their ancestry will see that their ancestors migrated to Kosovo from northern Albanian highlands. Kosovo was definitely majority Serbian until 1690 (the first Great Serbian migration) and quite possibly until 1876 (when there was an Albanian influx into Kosovo from Nish matched by a Serbian outflow). 4. There were Germans fighting too. They were mercenaries, just like most others. The leaders and most of the aristocracy on the Christian side was Serbian. The Serbian Empire battled the Ottoman Empire on that day. The Serbs used the memory of the battle to keep their faith. Albanians switched to the religion of the occupier and used it to gain favourable land privileges which would later help them expand into Kosovo.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 11, 2007 17:50:46 GMT -5
The Muhaxher's were people expelled from Serbia by Serbs, and pushed into Kosova. They took their revenge against the Serbs in the region... what a surprise... nothing would have happened had they not been so violently cleansed from the regions of Novi Pazar, Nish etc.
For most of the period prior to Serbian nationalism and aggression, Albs have coexisted peacefully with the Serbs there.
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Post by zgembo on Dec 11, 2007 18:01:18 GMT -5
They were not expelled. They simply fled out of fear (of losing their privileges, of being Muslims in a Christian state). They came to Kosovo looking for new homes and nobody protested much to them taking them from Serbs.
The whole "Serbian racial purification and desire for ethnic cleansing" theory that goes back to the 19th century is a load of propaganda. The Turks created a system of privileged and non-privileged people. When the system encountered change people fled. It was easy for Muslims/Albanians to move down south a bit and keep their priviliged status. Heck, it was hard for Bosnian Muslims to move to Anatolia after the Austro-Hungarians took over Bosnia in 1876, but that did not stop hundreds of thousands of them from doing it (and this despite AH pleas for them to stay and maintain some of their privileges, such as land-holdings).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 11, 2007 18:32:06 GMT -5
"During the fascist occupation of Kosovo by Albanians, until August 1941 alone, over 10,000 Serbs were killed and between 80,000 and 100,000 Serbs were expelled, while roughly the same number of Albanians from Albania were brought to settle in these Serbian lands."
This is basically the time my pops moved out from his birth town.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 11, 2007 18:36:45 GMT -5
Many fled from fear, many others fled because of expulsions. Thousands upon thousands of Albs from Macedonia to Serbia were registered as Turks and forcefully transferred to Turkey. Others lost their homes and property and were made to migrate.
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Post by pelasgian on Dec 12, 2007 10:54:58 GMT -5
1 The reason why Serbs failed to populate Kosovo is because they never saw it as "the heartland of Serbia". This myth did exist in Serbian history books and songs as a once upon a time story, but did not have a significant meaning until Milosevic made it significant in 1981.
2 The reason why it was the most underdeveloped region in former Yugoslavia is because it was treated as such, a lowdown region with no importance or whatsoever. When I went to serve military in 1986 I was surprised when a Slovenian friend told me that we use candles as a means of lighting our houses. There was a great propaganda against Kosovo, and I am sure it was not done by Albanians. Why, I have no idea. If this region was treated as a "heartland of Serbia", and being a part of one country, Serbia should have made sure that the largest proportion of federal funds should have been invested in Kosovo and not in other Serbian regions. But the reason why they never did that is because they never saw Kosovo as part of Serbia, but as a part of "Albanians".
3 Kosovo has always been a majority Albanian, and not only Kosovo but complete the south of Serbia. My own family ran away from Serbian killing machines. My grandfather told me a lot of stories about their escapes. At that time (WW1) the first contact any Albanian made with Serbs would result in a killing, that's how it was, so they had no choice but run for their lives into Kosovo, which in turn increased the number of Albanians to make it a proportional 9:1.
4 If you trust Serbian historians you will be very much incomplete. At least you recognize that there were Albanians in the battle of Kosovo Polje that fought against a common enemy. And they did not chose to become Muslims on the very first day. Majority of Albanians became Muslims throughout the centuries of Ottoman Control, and many never chose to become Muslims up to today. Today I am proud to have a British Passport and at the time of Ottoman Empire some would be proud to be Muslims, as it was great to be a Roman Citizen.
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Post by zgembo on Dec 12, 2007 11:46:39 GMT -5
^ The truth was presented to you, but you chose to ignore it and instead cling to propaganda. Kosovo was the heart of the Serbian Empire at its peak, and it was NOT always majority populated by Albanians (that only happened during the Ottoman Empire's rule). You're completely ignorant if you deny such established facts.
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