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Post by srbobran on Sept 28, 2008 19:52:22 GMT -5
Thats interesting stuff Yeni. Do you have more info on Serbian units in Ottoman ranks. I have some information regarding Jannisaries and statistics also state that the Sultan particularly preferred recruits from Serbia and Bosnia.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Sept 30, 2008 7:12:31 GMT -5
Among the 331 martaloc (marauder?, the lowest class looter units..), 278 ppl or 84% came from Serbian territories, Drava-Sava and Lower Danube areas, only 5 was muslim among them (4 native and 1 renegade). The "martalocs" were AFAIK Romanians (or Vlachs if you like) from the Timok area and probably other parts of the Balkans maybe Aromanians too. They fought as light cavalry raiding enemy territory and so on, probably things learned from Cumans Petchenegs and other stepe people. The term martaloc is from an the Greek word "armatolos" who is in term of latin or italian origin.
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Post by srbobran on Sept 30, 2008 17:10:34 GMT -5
Does anyone have any info on the martelosi?
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Sept 30, 2008 21:31:22 GMT -5
its interesting that they categorise the area between the sava and drava rivers (ie. lower pannonia a.k.a. northern croatia ) in the serb lands category.
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yeni
Moderator
gulash freak
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Post by yeni on Oct 1, 2008 5:50:09 GMT -5
its interesting that they categorise the area between the sava and drava rivers (ie. lower pannonia a.k.a. northern croatia ) in the serb lands category. Here the area refers to the Ottoman occupied parts only, probably linguistic reasons but i wouldn't surprise if under Ottoman rule there could be orthodox migration to those territories too as they were more trusted by Ottomans than the catholics. The Ottoman tax datas were published so from there we could have more idea what was the demograpic situation, here is a good list of publications (though not complete) www.ottoman.uconn.edu/Bibliography/Published_Tahrirs.htm among them i see books about Sanjak of Srem and Pozega too, the later in Croatian.
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Post by osmano on Oct 1, 2008 8:28:22 GMT -5
Islamic monuments in Hungary:
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Post by kapetan on Oct 1, 2008 23:05:33 GMT -5
Oh man, imagine how big Bosniak populations would be today if so so many of us didn't die all over the world in Ottoman wars. Bosnian Christians got lucky for the most part since they couldn't serve in the military.
We were particularly numerous in the Battles of Mohacs (defeated Hungary) and Krbava field (annihilated Croatia)
"As we have seen the devsirme system of child tribute, poured a huge stream of balkan youths into the army and the Imperial administration. Bosnians were said to be particularly prized: One Austrian-Slovenian writer observed in 1530 that the Sultan preffered to recruit Bosnians because he belived them to be "the best, most pious and most loyal people", differing from other "Turks", in that they were "much bigger, more handsome and more able" from Bosnia: A Short History by Noel Malcolm
I've read the same about Albanians many times, in books about Ottoman history. At first they used Greeks alot, but after it seems Bosnians and Albanians were the favorite from the Balkan.
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Post by tito on Oct 2, 2008 1:17:44 GMT -5
Oh man, imagine how big Bosniak populations would be today if so so many of us didn't die all over the world in Ottoman wars. Or if the 2-5 millions Bosniaks now living in Turkey had stayed in BiH and Sandzak.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Oct 2, 2008 6:14:50 GMT -5
And shonic can stay in Hungary, he is not Kosovo Serb i think, why should he go there. Köszönöm Yeni. WBB miat bisztos nem hogynam Magyarorszagat, ;D En nem Koszovo es Metohiai vok hanem Zimonyi. Az 1ik csalad reszem Del Szeremböl van (Zimony is Del Szeremben van). WBB en akkor mennek Koszovoba amikor te mennel Jeruzalembe! Nos, akkor te mikor mesz Jeruzsalembe? Nagyan furcsalom hogy WBB moderator lett Magyar forumon. Nem volt senki mas? Valaki jobb aki rendesen Magyarul is tud irni?
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Post by meltdown711 on Oct 2, 2008 21:45:18 GMT -5
Albanians were heavily recruited mostly because we had developed a culture of mercenarism. For all their ability as good soldiers, Albanians were considered uncontrollable and often a liability. In fact, a Turks general had to often becareful when dealing with Albanian troops since they were often very likely to turn on him. At times, to appease Albanian troops, the given generals allowed them to destroy and loot local territories. Such a case happened in central Bosnia during Omer Pasha's march. When he couldnt pay the troops, he allowed Albanians to indiscriminately loot and burn Christian and Muslim villages outside of Sarajevo in order for them to be payed. An even more notorious example occurred when Albanian troops simply turned around and abandoned the Turks during the siege of Tripoli when Greeks bribed the Albanian troops.
Bosnians were more well liked since they were more orderly.
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yeni
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gulash freak
Posts: 327
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Post by yeni on Oct 2, 2008 22:24:25 GMT -5
Oh man, imagine how big Bosniak populations would be today if so so many of us didn't die all over the world in Ottoman wars. Bosnian Christians got lucky for the most part since they couldn't serve in the military. We were particularly numerous in the Battles of Mohacs (defeated Hungary) and Krbava field (annihilated Croatia) "As we have seen the devsirme system of child tribute, poured a huge stream of balkan youths into the army and the Imperial administration. Bosnians were said to be particularly prized: One Austrian-Slovenian writer observed in 1530 that the Sultan preffered to recruit Bosnians because he belived them to be "the best, most pious and most loyal people", differing from other "Turks", in that they were "much bigger, more handsome and more able" from Bosnia: A Short History by Noel Malcolm I've read the same about Albanians many times, in books about Ottoman history. At first they used Greeks alot, but after it seems Bosnians and Albanians were the favorite from the Balkan. I read in a Hungarian article about the janissaries that Bosnian muslims were an exception in this devsirme system. there were strict rules like the children of the chiefs of the village, the children of the priests, the circumcised, the single children,the orphan, the sick, the disabled and the muslim, jewish, hungarian, croatian and georgian children were not allowed to be collected in the devshirme (this doesn’t mean there werent any Huns, Cros, Georgians among them in the reality, but theoretically it was prohibited) but the Bosnian muslims requested they want the devshirme tax voluntary (despite the prohibition to collect muslim children) becuase for them this was a honor. The article gave the primer source for this ( Fodor Pál: A Janicsárok törvényei, 1606 (The codes/laws of the Janissaries, 1606, its a translation of an Ottoman document), i will try to get that book next week in a library.
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yeni
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gulash freak
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Post by yeni on Oct 2, 2008 22:37:11 GMT -5
At times, to appease Albanian troops, the given generals allowed them to destroy and loot local territories. Such a case happened in central Bosnia during Omer Pasha's march. When he couldnt pay the troops, he allowed Albanians to indiscriminately loot and burn Christian and Muslim villages outside of Sarajevo in order for them to be payed. This is generally true for mercenaries, both in Ottoman and Habsburg sides, there was no bigger tragedy for villages than an unpayed group of mercenaries nearby. shonic jó kérdés, Admint kéne errõl megkérdezni..
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Post by srbobran on Oct 2, 2008 22:50:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I also read that children from Serbia and Bosnia especially were considered the best for Jannisary units.
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Post by kapetan on Oct 3, 2008 0:21:30 GMT -5
Albanians were heavily recruited mostly because we had developed a culture of mercenarism. For all their ability as good soldiers, Albanians were considered uncontrollable and often a liability. In fact, a Turks general had to often becareful when dealing with Albanian troops since they were often very likely to turn on him. At times, to appease Albanian troops, the given generals allowed them to destroy and loot local territories. Such a case happened in central Bosnia during Omer Pasha's march. When he couldnt pay the troops, he allowed Albanians to indiscriminately loot and burn Christian and Muslim villages outside of Sarajevo in order for them to be payed. An even more notorious example occurred when Albanian troops simply turned around and abandoned the Turks during the siege of Tripoli when Greeks bribed the Albanian troops. Bosnians were more well liked since they were more orderly. Yes yes, but we are not talking about mercenaries, or grown men being hired. We're talking about who's CHILDREN they prefered to take into the Janissary system. They prefered Bosnian and Albanian. And apperantly some members saying Serbian although I've never read that anywhere. Oh man, imagine how big Bosniak populations would be today if so so many of us didn't die all over the world in Ottoman wars. Bosnian Christians got lucky for the most part since they couldn't serve in the military. We were particularly numerous in the Battles of Mohacs (defeated Hungary) and Krbava field (annihilated Croatia) "As we have seen the devsirme system of child tribute, poured a huge stream of balkan youths into the army and the Imperial administration. Bosnians were said to be particularly prized: One Austrian-Slovenian writer observed in 1530 that the Sultan preffered to recruit Bosnians because he belived them to be "the best, most pious and most loyal people", differing from other "Turks", in that they were "much bigger, more handsome and more able" from Bosnia: A Short History by Noel Malcolm I've read the same about Albanians many times, in books about Ottoman history. At first they used Greeks alot, but after it seems Bosnians and Albanians were the favorite from the Balkan. I read in a Hungarian article about the janissaries that Bosnian muslims were an exception in this devsirme system. there were strict rules like the children of the chiefs of the village, the children of the priests, the circumcised, the single children,the orphan, the sick, the disabled and the muslim, jewish, hungarian, croatian and georgian children were not allowed to be collected in the devshirme (this doesn’t mean there werent any Huns, Cros, Georgians among them in the reality, but theoretically it was prohibited) but the Bosnian muslims requested they want the devshirme tax voluntary (despite the prohibition to collect muslim children) becuase for them this was a honor. The article gave the primer source for this ( Fodor Pál: A Janicsárok törvényei, 1606 (The codes/laws of the Janissaries, 1606, its a translation of an Ottoman document), i will try to get that book next week in a library. Don't know about that, but I di know ALOT of people gave their kids up volontarily after and even BRIBED people to pick their kids, because it meant a much better education and life.
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wbb
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Post by wbb on Oct 3, 2008 3:04:26 GMT -5
Szonikam, az elso szerb-racsok Koszovabol jottek mielott bevandoroltak Delvideken, dont forget that. addig mikor a zsido vagy yahudi ott van, akkor nem tudok. es a macsik, ez nem Jeruzsalem ha nem Al-Kudd, ha tudod hogy kinnek tartozik ez a varos, a Falasztin-nak. You lost Koszova, why dont u go back and re-claim it, at least u do something about instead letting it happen. anyway just joking, why dont u be my brother and become a hardcore Fradi supporter, Fradi green eagle is the best, there's no other team like Fradi. lol Szonikam, ha en nem vagyok jo moderator akkor Admin bacsi nem isz adok nekem volna. Why am i furcsa beacuse i love to joke around habib? Be a Hungarian, u will enjoy it, nice girls, nice food, etc,etc, it's not hard to be hungarian, Petofi and Kossuth themselves was a serb who became proud hungarian.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Oct 6, 2008 7:47:30 GMT -5
Hey i came back from the library, i got the book, so its Hungarian title A janicsárok törvényei, 1606 translated by Fodor Pál, ISBN 963 04 0152 5, it was published by the MTA (Hun. Academy of Sciences), 1989. The manuscripts (copies) of the Ottoman text can be found in 1.MTA Keleti gyüjtemény, T.O. 252. 2.-3. Istanbul, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi Kütüphanesi, Revan 1319 and 1320. 4. Istanbul, the late I.H. Uzuncarsili’s private library 5. Istanbul, Süleymaniye Kütüphanesi, Esat Efendi, 2068. 6. Gotha, Herzoglische Bibliothek, Cod. Goth. Türc 134. 7. Bratislava, Kniznica Slovenskej Univerzity, TE 47. 8. Leningrad (Saint Petersburg), IV AN SSSR, A 249. the Ottoman work was also published in Turkish, in Ismail Hakki Uzuncarsili’s Osmanli devleti teskilatindan kapukulu ocaklari I. Acemi ocagi ve yeniceri ocagi, ( kitap.antoloji.com/osmanli-devleti-teskil-tindan-kapukulu-ocaklari-cilt-1-acemi-kitabi/ ) and in Russian by I. E. Petrosian Medbe-i Kanun-i Yeniceri Ocagi Tarihi… Moscow, 1987 cyrillic: Мебде-и канун-и йеничери оджагы тарихи, И. Е. Петросян. М., 1987. The genre of the book is nasihat- or pand-nameh, (advisory book for the sultan) The name of the author is unknown, but he wrote the book under Sultan Ahmed I, he writes about himself that his ancestors served in the janissary units from the time of Fatih Mehmed sultan and he himself is the member of the janissaries and participated in several military campaigns. I have finished only the first chapter, there he writes about why were the janissary units created, how the acemi oglans (the newly recruited janissaries) are collected and other things. So about selection of the children it mentions things like originally the kadis of the vilayets had to collect the children but later this became the job of the beys of the vilayets and from the time of Sultan Suleyman the agas of the ocaks (janissary high officers) do it, they give the assignment to othe lower officers (the book list them) who go to the villages. So when the infidel childrens are collected the children of the nobles, the children of the priests and the children of good descent should be taken. If somebody have two sons, only one should be taken away and if he only has one son, the child should not be taken. It is not allowed to take orphans, the sons of the village’s magistrates/aldermen, the children of the herdsmen and sheperds, scabby or squint-eyed children, circumcised children, boys who can speak Turkish, married boys, boys from the family of craftsmen, those children who have been in Istanbul and came back. Also too tall or too short boys shouldn’t be taken either. When the children are collected, they are divided into 200 member units (sürü). They write down in which kadi's district the sürü was collected, the description of the boys, name of their kadis, their village the father and mother’s name, the boys own name, their infidel and muslim names etc all have to be recorded in defters. The handsome children are sent to the sultan’s palace, the strong children are sent to the palace gardens where they serve like they would serve with the Turks, the rest are sold to Turks for one gold but now (in the time of sultan Ahmed) for 3 gurus or more.. Every year officers visit the Turks and after 7-8 years the boys are enlisted for service. the Ottoman author mentions that when Sultan Mehmed conquered Bosnia the people converted to islam en masse and the sultan asked what do they wish for this in exchange? And the Bosnians asked the sultan to collect their sons too. So from that time even the muslim Bosnian boys are collected in the devshirme. And he also mentions that the Bosnian children have to be checked carefully because Turks often pretend to be Bosnian and bribe the officers so they can also join the janissaries. It also writes that the majority of the Bosnians reach high offices, they are smart and clever so they are sent to the palace and palace gardens and they are not sold to Turkish families. It is prohibited to collect the childrens of infidels from Trapezunt (Trabzon), because these people’s „viciousness is going too far”. It was prohibited from the time of Mehmed III. The collection of Hungarians and Croatians north of Belgrade is also not allowed according to the law, because „even if the Hungarian and Croatian converts, he wont be muslim. When he will have the chance, he leaves the true faith and escapes.” Children between Karaman to Erzurum should also not be collected because they are mixed with Turkmens, Georgians and Kurds. Etc these were just short examples from the first pages of the book, it is an excellent primer source about the janissaries, it writes about different ranks, pays, career progress, officers, how they are selected, history of the janissary institution, problems, decline, innovations and so.
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