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Post by vinjak on Oct 10, 2007 4:14:46 GMT -5
Congratulations Terror,
You I believe are the first to be edited.
Your claim was outrageous and your intentions clearly where to provoke.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:13:39 GMT -5
"You do know that Travnik is a Muslim city?" Nope, it's a Bosnian town, with a Bosniak majority. They called themselves Muslims before and during the war. They shall therefore always be branded Muslims. ‘Bosniak’ is false nationality, like Kosovar. Their purpose is to give legitimacy where there is none. Like I said to Terroreign before, a nationality does not imply ethniticity. Kosovar can be considered a nation as much as Bosniaks, they however can't be considered a seperate ethnic group. I don't really care if there is a "Kosovar" nation or not, they're Albnaians end of story.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:16:48 GMT -5
Nope, the "Muslims" was the false nationality. Bosniaks are much older then 1993 when the name was reinstated. BS. bosniak referred to any inhabitant of bosnia. In the time that the Ottomans were in the Balkans the concept of the nation was still new and not only that but at the time the Muslims in Bosnia were more religous then they are now and as religous muslims they were taught to disregard any national affiliations and feel that they are part of the Islamic community (the Umma). They at the time were more affiliated with religion then any national identity. furthermore, I agree the decision to call their nation "Muslim" was idiotic. I can see why they chose the name Bosniak (they are in Bosnia) but the true reason it was chosen was to imply bosnia as their state and that anyone else was not entitled to it.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:20:21 GMT -5
"I think these people arn't educated and are doing a disservice to the community. If someone could explain to them the intentions of Hitlers plan and especially towards Slavs in general, then they would change." But that's the thing.. They are educated, i go on their forums every now and then (out of interest, i don't participate in discussion) and the way they talk you can tell they aren't dumb.. The thing is they don't acknowledge the rest of the world's belief about how Hitler disliked the Slavs. They have their own sources and they believe he disliked the Slavs, not because of racial inferiority but because most slavic countries were communist.. Anyway, Hitler was a man full of contradictions.. an imbecile.. Most Slavic countries were communist. That show's they are idiots. The USSr was not ruled by a Slav at the time but by a Georgian. There were guerillas fightinh communism in Ukraine up until WWII. Only russia was a communist state, Poland was not communist, Bulgaria wasn't (it was ruled by a German), Yugoslavia wasn't, Czechoslovakia wasn't, Poland wasn't. All those states in fact were anti-USSR.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2007 16:23:35 GMT -5
"Your grossly exagerrating this and plus Albanians & Croats are more hateful and Gypsies -- they're hated throughout Europe in the same degree. And that so-called "MOC" was nothing but a provocation and isn't even functioning as a proper church. Oppress minorities. You mean minorities make up claims or exaggerate the truth. What they say is refutable and published by groups that do not verify their sources. You shouldn't talk terrorreign. Your the most hateful person on this forum. Hell, yoyu hate your own group." "grossly exaggerating"? haha i actually think im not stressing the fact enough! Not only do the general amount of serbs deeply hate croats and albanians, they are at the same time afraid of them! And why? Because they know that the albs and croats know that the serbs are racists! Similar to how some (southern) white people in america deeply hate black people, but at the same time are very scared of them! This is what we call "Kukavice"! One fine staple of the Serb legacy XD. ----edit----------. The MOC is actually very functioning and spreading rapidly, even Slobodan Milosevic's Daughter is for the Montenegrin Orthodox Church! Even the late Zoran Djindjic supported the MOC and the Monte Minorty in Vojvodina very much. Find evidence that he support the MOC. milosevic family are all communists and never did anything according to Orthodox canon rules so I'm not surprised their daughter is a member of a non-legitimate church. You church is not spreading rapidly. Second. Your claims are idiotic. Croatians and Albanians are racist just as much if not more then Serbs. How about you stop making provocative posts.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 10, 2007 18:03:23 GMT -5
Nope, the "Muslims" was the false nationality. Bosniaks are much older then 1993 when the name was reinstated. BS. bosniak referred to any inhabitant of bosnia. In the time that the Ottomans were in the Balkans the concept of the nation was still new and not only that but at the time the Muslims in Bosnia were more religous then they are now and as religous muslims they were taught to disregard any national affiliations and feel that they are part of the Islamic community (the Umma). They at the time were more affiliated with religion then any national identity. furthermore, I agree the decision to call their nation "Muslim" was idiotic. I can see why they chose the name Bosniak (they are in Bosnia) but the true reason it was chosen was to imply bosnia as their state and that anyone else was not entitled to it. ‘Bosniak’ was never a nationality. ‘Bosnian’ was a person from Bosnia regardless of religion or ethnicity. Bosniak is used by pro-Muslims who wish to give legitimacy to Muslims in Bosnia over Serbs and Croats who are referred to simply as Bosnian Serbs or Bosnian Croats. They called themselves Muslims before and during the war. They shall therefore always be branded Muslims. ‘Bosniak’ is false nationality, like Kosovar. Their purpose is to give legitimacy where there is none. Like I said to Terroreign before, a nationality does not imply ethniticity. Kosovar can be considered a nation as much as Bosniaks, they however can't be considered a seperate ethnic group. I don't really care if there is a "Kosovar" nation or not, they're Albnaians end of story. But that’s the point. An outsider who doesn’t understand what ‘Kosovars’ are will automatically think that they are the natural inhabitants of Kosovo when that is not the case. Albanians in Kosovo are newcomers who have only been in Kosovo for around a century.
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Demonel
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Post by Demonel on Oct 11, 2007 11:11:33 GMT -5
I rest my case. ;D
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 11, 2007 11:48:43 GMT -5
^ LOL! I was looking for that. Thanks Bro, haha.
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Demonel
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Post by Demonel on Oct 11, 2007 11:57:35 GMT -5
;D I love this sound of silence.
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Post by radovic on Oct 11, 2007 13:20:16 GMT -5
Bosniak was an old term fmeaning the same as Bosnian. Bosniak had gone out of usage and the term Bosnian was used. After the break up of Yugoslavia the Bosniaks chose to use Bosniaks since the term Bosnian was generally accepted as referring to any inhabitant of Bosnian. What would you rather they call themselves? Bosnians -- illogical or Muslims -- also illogical as it refers to a religion not a nationality.
I agree they chose Bosniak to imply Bosnia as theirs, but the thing is is their any other name they could have chosen logically. What also could they call themselves?
By your logic russians are not a nation or nationality because Putin introduced words to distinguish between Russians as citizens and Russians as nation.
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Demonel
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I am Jack's regained insanity.
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Post by Demonel on Oct 11, 2007 15:56:31 GMT -5
x2
Also the word Bosniak was chosen also because we didn’t want to imply that we were the sole “owners” of Bosnia. (If we wanted that we could have taken the word Bosnian as our name).
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 11, 2007 16:47:28 GMT -5
I rest my case. ;D Muslims in Bosnia called themselves Muslims until the early 1990s. Whatever foreign powers called the Bosnian Muslims does not matter. Bosniak was an old term fmeaning the same as Bosnian. Bosniak had gone out of usage and the term Bosnian was used. After the break up of Yugoslavia the Bosniaks chose to use Bosniaks since the term Bosnian was generally accepted as referring to any inhabitant of Bosnian. What would you rather they call themselves? Bosnians -- illogical or Muslims -- also illogical as it refers to a religion not a nationality. I agree they chose Bosniak to imply Bosnia as theirs, but the thing is is their any other name they could have chosen logically. What also could they call themselves? Since they were constituted as “Muslims” then they should be referred to as such but if you really think that is inappropriate then “Turk” will do just fine. By your logic russians are not a nation or nationality because Putin introduced words to distinguish between Russians as citizens and Russians as nation. The Russians called themselves Russians before the Soviet Union. The “Bosniaks” called themselves either Serbs, Croats or Bosnians before Yugoslavia.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 11, 2007 17:21:20 GMT -5
No, they didn't. Bosniaks were always Bosniaks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_HerzegovinaAjde, pođi malo po malo citat. Ko i sta si ti da im promijenis ime. Ti si niko i nista, pickin dim. That was an insult, if I ever saw one. You basically said that they don't belong as to where they are. Bosnjaci su sebe uvijek zvali Bosnjaci (Bosniak). Al' 'Bosnjak' je drugacije od 'Bosanca'. Razumijes? Read up on Husein Gradaščević, it will get your facts straight and quick.
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Post by MiG on Oct 11, 2007 17:26:43 GMT -5
Evo jos malo informacije. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husein_Grada%C5%A1%C4%8Devi%C4%87-"Husein-kapetan Gradaščević (1802 – August 17, 1834) was a Bosniak general who fought for Bosnian autonomy in the Ottoman Empire. He is often referred to as "Zmaj od Bosne", meaning "Dragon from Bosnia", a title he may have invented himself. Gradaščević was born in Gradačac in 1802 and grew up surrounded by a political climate of turmoil in the western reaches of the Ottoman Empire. When his brother..... "-
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 11, 2007 18:30:41 GMT -5
They didn’t call themselves Bosniaks before the Bosnian war. Ko i sta si ti da im promijenis ime. Ti si niko i nista, pickin dim. Ne pusi kurac, mali. Also, can we please stick to English, I unfortunately do not have a Latin keyboard. That was an insult, if I ever saw one. You basically said that they don't belong as to where they are. They technically don’t. They have declared themselves not Serbs or Croats and if that is the case then there is only one other alternative, that they are descendent from Turks. Bosnjaci su sebe uvijek zvali Bosnjaci (Bosniak). Al' 'Bosnjak' je drugacije od 'Bosanca'. Razumijes? Again: They didn’t call themselves Bosniaks before the Bosnian war. Also, the fact of the matter is that “Bosniak” is a false identity, it was invented during the Bosnian war for propaganda purposes. Bosnians are people from Bosnia regardless of religion or ethnicity but Bosniaks is meant to give one side in Bosnia legitimacy over the other. In the eyes of a foreigner who doesn’t know the history of the Balkans, they would think that Bosniaks are natural inhabitants of Bosnia while Serbs, Croats and others are foreigners. Do you understand? Read up on Husein Gradaščević, it will get your facts straight and quick. Link doesn’t work. No where in that article does it say when “Bosniaks” came into being. I doubt the “Bosniaks” 500 years ago referred to themselves as such. I am sure that they either called themselves Bosnians, Serbs, Croats or Turks depending on their beliefs.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 11, 2007 23:27:46 GMT -5
Prove this fact, as a fact, not mere hearsay. Indulge me. No thanks, I don't swing that way. Even if I did, I still wouldn't be your type. Stick to english because you don't have a "Latin" keyboard? Must be tough to write in english with a Cyrillic Keyboard. (I assume its cyrillic since you're Serb). Dude don't you worry about what language you write in, you are still wrong. You can write Serbian Cyrillic if you prefer, I can read it perfectly. Thank God for SFRJ Education. They are Slavic Muslims. Russia has a pretty big number of those, and they don't even complain this much. Dude they converted to Islam because they CHOSE to, it seemed and still seems like a great faith to follow for them. Why the hell do you care, you aren't a polititian in BiH anyway. You are asking me if I understand? Dude have you not read any of the posts posted here? Bosnian is a term to describe anyone who comes from the Republika Bosna i Hercegovina, Bosniaks are a seperate nationality. Also, many people who come from Bosnia that are Croats or Serbs, don't say they are from Bosnia, but that they are from Croatia or Serbia. I for one am proud to be a Bosnian Croat, and to me what you are writing is just plain propaganda, since you don't back sh!t all with sources (which are relatively non-bias). Then get yourself to Wikipedia manually, and type in his name in the search field.. Type in 'Husein Gradaščević'. Want me to draw it for you? Did you scroll down? Maybe you missed the part where it said "History of Bosniaks" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosniaks
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Oct 12, 2007 0:45:54 GMT -5
anti-fascist rally? more like a communist one.. look at the images, fu cken pigs, carrying red flags and vojvodina flags (not one serb flag in sight).. picke komunisticke... At least these "neo-nazis" stand up for Srbija and don't want it to fall into the hands of siptari and the west.. these commi scum want nothing but to see Srbija split up even more.. X2.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 12, 2007 1:00:40 GMT -5
Prove this fact, as a fact, not mere hearsay. Indulge me. Give me solid evidence that Muslims called themselves Bosniaks 500 years ago. Stick to english because you don't have a "Latin" keyboard? Must be tough to write in english with a Cyrillic Keyboard. (I assume its cyrillic since you're Serb). Dude don't you worry about what language you write in, you are still wrong. You can write Serbian Cyrillic if you prefer, I can read it perfectly. Thank God for SFRJ Education. How do you have a SFRJ education when you are 21? And no, what I meant was that I have an English keyboard, not one with the Ijekavski alphabet. They are Slavic Muslims. Russia has a pretty big number of those, and they don't even complain this much. Dude they converted to Islam because they CHOSE to, it seemed and still seems like a great faith to follow for them. Why the hell do you care, you aren't a polititian in BiH anyway. I am not against what they are, I am against what they call themselves. I really have nothing against Bosnian Muslims, it’s the uneducated western media that I am against. You are asking me if I understand? Dude have you not read any of the posts posted here? Bosnian is a term to describe anyone who comes from the Republika Bosna i Hercegovina, Bosniaks are a seperate nationality. Also, many people who come from Bosnia that are Croats or Serbs, don't say they are from Bosnia, but that they are from Croatia or Serbia. I for one am proud to be a Bosnian Croat, and to me what you are writing is just plain propaganda, since you don't back sh!t all with sources (which are relatively non-bias). “Bosniak” is a propaganda term. The evidence is the lack of the term before the war. Also, many people who come from Bosnia that are Croats or Serbs, don't say they are from Bosnia, but that they are from Croatia or Serbia. Once again I ask you not to draw from personal experience. Then get yourself to Wikipedia manually, and type in his name in the search field.. Type in 'Husein Gradaščević'. Want me to draw it for you? Did you scroll down? Maybe you missed the part where it said "History of Bosniaks" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosniaks All that was written by current people. Again I ask you to give me solid evidence that Muslims called themselves Bosniaks 500 years ago.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 12, 2007 1:37:54 GMT -5
I have given you several sources. The onus is on you to prove to me that Bosniaks aren't an ethnicity and that they don't belong in the Balkans.
I was educated in Wartorn/Post-War Bosna. They didn't change the education system right away, which was introduced way back in the People's Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Cyrillic was mandatory.
BTW, what does an english keyboard have to do with writing Serbo-Croatian?
Well the way you state your argument, you come accross as a very spiteful person.
Anyway, they have a right to call themselves whatever they want. Can you imagine for a second that you are in their position, and someone is denying you the right to call yourself Serb, how would you react to that?
Lack of the term, when I provided evidence of a General of the Bosnian Army, who called himself a Bosnjak (Bosniak). Lived-Died: 1802 – August 17, 1834.
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Post by serbguerrilla on Oct 12, 2007 2:31:55 GMT -5
I have given you several sources. The onus is on you to prove to me that Bosniaks aren't an ethnicity and that they don't belong in the Balkans. You have given me wiki links, not evidence that the Bosnian Muslims called themselves Bosniaks 500 years ago. I was educated in Wartorn/Post-War Bosna. They didn't change the education system right away, which was introduced way back in the People's Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Cyrillic was mandatory. Seems strange for a school in the federation to be teaching Cyrillic. BTW, what does an english keyboard have to do with writing Serbo-Croatian? If I cant write with the proper alphabet then I will not write at all, I just don’t feel right about it and I don’t have to explain myself to you. Well the way you state your argument, you come accross as a very spiteful person. I don’t like what the west has done to Bosnia or the Balkans. Forgive me if I blame most of what happened on them and their arrogant meddling. Anyway, they have a right to call themselves whatever they want. Can you imagine for a second that you are in their position, and someone is denying you the right to call yourself Serb, how would you react to that? But you see, Serbia is not a country in which the majority ethnic population is less then 50%. But I do see your point. Once again, I am only against the way western media uses the term. Lack of the term, when I provided evidence of a General of the Bosnian Army, who called himself a Bosnjak (Bosniak). Lived-Died: 1802 – August 17, 1834. I read en wikipedia.org/wiki/Husein_Gradašcevic and nowhere did I see that he referred to himself as a ‘Bosniak’.
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