"Arbanasians (Albanians)almost regularly call them Škejans (Slavs). Since the Arbanasi as settlers are older over the Macedonian Slavs, the name Škjeji and Schiavoni means, that the Macedonian Slavs during the settlement only used this name."
this one caught my attention ....
otherwise ....I want all you different slav groups to count from 1-10 in your own language
and how do you say Yes and No
how do you say eyes
how do you say nose
how do you say water
how do you say vagina
now if these are all the same or very similar
your just simple slavs ....case closed ....whats the next topic ?
"Arbanasians (Albanians)almost regularly call them Škejans (Slavs). Since the Arbanasi as settlers are older over the Macedonian Slavs, the name Škjeji and Schiavoni means, that the Macedonian Slavs during the settlement only used this name."
this one caught my attention ....
otherwise ....I want all you different slav groups to count from 1-10 in your own language
and how do you say Yes and No
how do you say eyes
how do you say nose
how do you say water
how do you say vagina
now if these are all the same or very similar
your just simple slavs ....case closed ....whats the next topic ?
I would like to take the attention of the readers in this thread in particular, with several new theories regarding Slavs, their so called migration, language etc.
First is the book of the romanian scientist Florin Curta "The making of the Slavs - History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500–700" where Curta, mainly with historical and archaeological data, draws conclusions that the term Slavs and Antes are purely political terms that doesnt correspond with ethnographic reality and that the slavic migrations didnt happen. I can personally vouch for the non-migration theory since i'm an archaeologist and these "migrations", at least here in Macedonia, are archaeologically invisible. No traces what-so-ever have been recorded so far (drastic change of culture, burial customs etc). From communications with other scientists from neighborouing countries like Greece, Serbia and Croatia, i got the info that they have similar problems (identifying artifacts with newly arrived people).
Second is the paper of Mario Alinei (he has two books on the subject too but alas written in italian so the paper will ahve to suffice for all people who dont have knowledge of italian language), "Interdisciplinary and linguistic evidence for Palaeolithic continuity of Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic populations in Eurasia, with an excursus on Slavic ethnogenesis", Italian linguist and propagator of the so-called Paleolithic Continuity Theory, which basically argues that the Slavic languages have always been spoken in the territories we encounter them today, since deep prehistory and off course doesnt support any mass Slav migration theories as well. Main arguments are the big level of homogenization of all the slavic languages, i.e. very big similarity between huge assymetric territory, but big differentiation on local basis, which is close to impossible to happen in reality if it is not done in centralized manner and with huge propaganda aparatus.
You can find both the book and the paper by searching on Google.
Note to AAdmin: I see that you really want to discuss the BU hipothesys. The books i have mentioned above can give quite a good scientific niche in creating such political balkan federation, since it is very close to reality (just needs a bit of work to put all interdisciplinary evidence together).
This is response to the author of the book "The Making Of Slavs" by Florin Cutra. These letters are written by Joseph Skulj.
The following two, articles, courtesy of Joseph Skulj, contain very important information on the origin of the Slavs.
Pozdrav, Risto Stefov
"Slavs have been known by many names during the historical period. However, genetically they are descendents of populations that sought refuge in the Balkans and Ukraine during the Last Glacial Maximum approx. 20,000 years ago. In the attachments (marked ITEM 2) is an article which will appear in the Sept/Oct issue of 'The Voice of Canadian Slovenians/GLASILO kanadskih slovencev', which shows a genetic continuity between Veneti and the people in the Balkans. Also included in the attachments (marked ITEM 1) is a letter to Prof. Curta who is of the opinion, that Slavs are a 6th century invention."
Joseph Skulj P. Eng. 11 Westacres Dr. Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7 firstname.lastname@example.org
Prof. Florin Curta Department of History University of Florida
Re: The Making of the Slavs
Dear Prof. Curta:
The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half of its land mass? Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated? Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?
The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests that you have found the answer. Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent. I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.
Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book. While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins. You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire". This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day. Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin. Based on archaeological evidence, scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices. There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.
Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy. For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans. They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe: Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%. And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East. Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade. In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.
Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains. Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians. This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.
The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others (2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %. They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency 30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47 %, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM. The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.
Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central European origin of the Eastern Slavs.
Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.
Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan. The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.
Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages, the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.
This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb, "to be":
English Sanskrit Slovenian Russian Hindi 1. p. sing. I am asmi sem x x (hu:n) 2. p. sing. you are asi si x x (hain) 3. p. sing. he is asti x (je) yest x (hai) 1. p. dual svah sva x x 2. p. dual sthah sta x x 3. p. dual stah sta x x 1. p. plural we are smah smo x x (hain) 2. p. plural you are stha ste x x (hain) 3. p. plural they are santi so x x (hain) It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.
It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east. Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach. Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.
Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
ETRUSCANS, VENETI and SLOVENIANS: A Genetic Perspective
(J. Skulj P.Eng. The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada. 2004-10-5)
Genetske primejave Etrušcanov in današnjih Slovencev ka?ejo na znatne sorodnosti. Ertušcanski primerki so vzeti od okostnjakov--njihovih veljakov--iz grobnic, nastalih med 1. in 7. st. pr. Kr.. V te primerjave je vkljucenih 5 okostnjakov iz mesta Adria, ki je v pokrajini Veneto-v rimski dobi pa je bila Adria v provinci Venetia et Histria. Genetsko najbli?ji Slovencem so prav ti ~2,400 let stari okostnjaki iz Adria; kar 4 od 5 (80%) ima genetske vrste ki se sedaj najdejo na Balkanu. Sedaj ~20% Slovencev nosi genetske vrste ki so prisotne pri ~2,400 let starih okostnjakih iz Adria. Tako se genetski podatki skladajo s teorijo kontinuitete na ozemlju Slovenije-in podpirajo Venetsko teorijo, ki zagovarja sorodnost Slovencev in Venetov.
Analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of modern populations has become a useful tool for human population studies and for reconstructing aspects of evolutionary history. The maternal mode of inheritance of the mtDNA, allows it to be used for inferring the pattern of prehistoric female migrations and peopling of different regions of the world. It is now technically possible to validate these analyses by directly studying the DNA of ancient people (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. obtained fragments of well preserved skeletons from Etruscan necropolises, covering much of the Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to 2nd centuries B.C.) and geography. The tombs typically belong to the social elites, so the individuals studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. The ancient human remains came from the following sites: Adria, Volterra, Castelfranco di Sotto, Castellucio di Pienza, Magliano and Marsiliana, Tarquinia and also Capua. Two cities, Adria in the Po valley and Capua in Campania, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory. In Adria the hybridization with the Veneti may have occurred (Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. compared the mtDNA results obtained from the ancient remains to a number of modern populations. Unfortunately, they did not take into account the genetic studies of Slovenians ( Malyarchuk 2003), who are geographically relatively close to Adria.
The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns, villages and farms had been completely lost. It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest. The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east. The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south. It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).
The Veneti are also one the historic peoples, subject of many discussions and debates, but who were more widespread than the Etruscans. They were present in many lands (Mogentale-Profizi 2001): Veneti in Paphlagonia -northern coast of present day Turkey-were mentioned by Homer in 9th cent. BC., Veneti in Illyricum (Enetoi) on the lower Danube and in the upper Adriatic, were mentioned by Herodotus in 5th cent. BC:, Veneti in central Europe mentioned by Tacitus and Pliny the Elder, Veneti in Gaul were mentioned by Caesar, and Veneti in Latium who are referred to as Venetulani by Pliny the Elder. The Veneti and Etruscans appear to be related. However, Adria was in the 10th Roman province 'Venetia et Histria' until the downfall of the empire. There is historical, linguistic and topographic evidence that present day Slovenians are indigenous to their land and descendents of the Veneti (Šavli 1996).
DISCUSSION of GENETIC STUDIES
In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them. Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans. Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana. The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).
Comparing the results of Vernesi et al and Malyarchuk et al, it becomes apparent that, the present day Slovenians, carry more than just CRS and 16126 'Etruscan' mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes found in the Tuscans. Twice as many 'Etruscan' haplotypes have been found in Slovenians than in Tuscans, namely: CRS, 16261, 16223, 16311. These were found in skeletal remains from Adria, Magliano/Marsiliana and also from Volterra. Two additional haplotypes from Adria, 16126 and 16129, are similar to Slovenian haplotypes, but the Slovenian haplotypes differ from the 'Etruscan' ones of Adria, by an additional substitution; 16069-16126 and 16129-16304. However, haplotype 16129 without the 16069 substitution is found in Bosnia. This leaves just one haplotype out of five, namely, 16126-16193-16278, where no similar haplotype is found in Slovenia. However, this 16126-16193-16278 haplotype is similar to that found in skeletal remains from Capua at the southern limit of Etruscan influence where hybridization with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers may have occurred (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
The root type 16069-16126 HVS1 sequence, present in ~8% of Slovenians, is very diverse and may represent a trace of Neolithic (new Stone Age at the beginning of agriculture) migration from the Middle East (Malyarchuk 2003). Haplotypes CRS, 16223, 16261 and 16311 are carried by ~17% of Slovenians. They belong to haplogroup H, which is estimated to be ~20, 000 years old; this haplogroup is the most common one in Slovenians at 47% (Richards 2000, Malyarchuk 2003).
Adria in Veneto
Focusing on 5 haplotypes, CRS, 16126, 16129, 16223, 16126-16193-16278 found in skeletal remains from Adria, which was part of Venetia et Histria during the Roman era,.(Adria is even now located in Veneto, Italy), and comparing them to the present day populations, we find:
--CRS in Slovenians at 13% (Malyarchuk 2003), in Europe at 24% (Richards 1996)
--16126 is found as 16069-16126 in Slo at 8% (M), in Eu 16069-16126 is at 7% (R)
--16129 is found in Bosnians (Bos) at <2% (M), in Russians at 1% (M1) in Basques at 9% (R); in Slo it is found as 16129-16148-16223-16391 and 16129-16223-16391 at 2% (M).
--16223 is found in Slo at 1%, elsewhere in Eu only in South Germans and Ukrainians (M)
From the above comparison, it can be seen, that there is a genetic continuity between ancient populations as attested from the skeletal remains found in Etruria proper and especially between those found in Venetia and the present day Europeans. While Tuscans share 2 haplotypes with the Etruscans, Slovenians and Bosnians share 3 haplotypes. It should also be noted that 2 additional Etruscan haplotypes from Adria in Veneto, differ from the Slovenian haplotypes by one to three substitutions. Considering the evidence, this shows the relatively strong genetic mtDNA relationship between ancient Veneti and modern day Slovenians.
In addition to the haplotypes in ancient Veneti from Adria, Slovenians also share haplotypes with the skeletal remains of Etruscans from Etruria proper, namely from Volterra (Vo) and Magliano/Marsiliana (M/M). Furthermore,Russians and Poles share one lineage with Castelfranco di Sotto (CS) not found in the Slovenian sample.
--16261 of Vo is found in Slo at 1% (M), in Eu at <1% (R).
--16311 of M/M is found in Slo at 2%, in Bosnians at 7% (M), in Eu at 5% (R)
--16126 of M/M is found in Slo as 16069-16126 lineage at 8% (M) in Eu at 7% (R).
--CRS of M/M is found in Slo at 13% (M), in Eu at 24% (R).
--16189-16356 of (M/M) is found in Poles at 0.5%, Russians at 0.5% and Germans at 0.4% (M1)
Here again, no abrupt differences are seen between skeletal remains from Etruria proper and the present day Slavic populations in the Balkans. Richards et al., in their study of 520 individuals from Europe, where the Slavic populations were not included, did not detect in the 16223 haplotype, which present in skeletal remains from Adria, nor has it been found in a sample of modern Tuscans (Richards 1996, Vernesi 2004), but is has been found in Slovenia, South Germany and Ukraine (Malyarchuk 2003).
The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago. This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000). Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques (6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2 co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b* occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..
Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population (Mogentale-Profizi 2001). Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).
What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans (Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets, but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).
There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.
Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.
Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma?ic "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).
Barbujani G (1997) DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am J Hum Genet 61:1011-1014.
Barbujani G, Bertolle G (2001) Genetics and the population history of Europe. PNAS vol. 98 no.1:22-25.
(M) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Drobnic K, Miscicka-Sliwka D (2003) Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Ann Hum Genet 67: 412- 425.
(M1) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Wozniak M, Misicka-Sliwka D (2002) Mitochondrial DNA in Poles and Russians. Ann Hum Genet 66:261-283.
Mogentale-Profizi N, Chollet L, Stevanovitch A, Dubut V, Poggi C, Pradie MP, Spadoni JL, Gilles A, Beraud-Colomb E (2001) Mitachondrial DNA sequence diversity in two groups of Italian Veneto speakers from Veneto. Ann Hum Genet 65: 153-166.
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E and 34 others (2000) Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251-1267.
Richards M, Corte-Real H, Forster P and 7 others (1996) Paleolithic and Neolithic Lineages in the European Mitochondrial Gene Pool. Am J Hum Genet 59:185-203.
Rootsi S, Magri C, Kivisild T and 42 others (2004) Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe. Am J Hum Genet 75:128-137.
Šavli J, Bor M, Toma?ic I, trans. Škerbinc A (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Wien, Boswell: Editiones Veneti ISBN 0-9681236-0-0. pp.80, 197- 199, 344, 443, 501.
Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ and 14 others (2000) The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science vol.290 10 November.
Vernesi C, Caramelli D, Dupanloup I, Bertorelle G, Lari M, Capellini D, Moggi-Cecci J, Chiarelli B, Castri L, Casoli A, Mallegni F, Lalueza-Fox C, Barbujani G (2004) The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study. Am J Hum Genet 74: 694-704.
Wellard J (!973) The Search for the Etruscans. London: Sphere Books Ltd. ISBN 0 351 18677 8. pp.11,113.
I agree with Cvijic about diversity among south Macedonian Slavs.
I went in few bigger south Macedonian cities and for example I could notice how people from Ohrid look very different from Bitolj people. For example many people from Bitolj had completely foreign look(to my eye), which means Mid Eastern + south European look(Dinaric + south Mediterranean + Atlanto-Meds)with small amount of Central European look, while most of Ohrid people could easily pass in Central Europe and central Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia(more Atlantid + Baltid + Norid + Alpine component) and some southern European looking people.
Have you been to Skopje ulf? What did you think of the appearance of the Macedonians there?
I agree with you about people from Bitola. I have said this before many times but, the majority of Macedonian immigrants here in Australia are from Bitola, and me being from Skopje, they never guess me as one of their own. They always tell me they thought I was a Croat or a Bosnian, etc.
No, I have some relatives in old town and suburbs of Ohrid and both neighborhoods looked quite familiar. Exception is for example in Belgrade you got more taller north Pontid/Nordic blond types kind of like Slobodan Rajkovic, while in Ohrid its more usually to see somewhat shorter Ole Gunnar Solskjaer types ;D
Anyway both of those two types are not majority.
I was in Skoplje but that was long ago so I don't really remember what people look like
Even the Hacker group Anonymous knows the truth that the Macedonians and the Republic Of Macedonia always has, always was and always will be a separate race/nation and country with a separate language to the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) and the Hacker group Anonymous knows the truth that Republic Of Macedonia never has, never was and never will be a part of Gayreece (Hell Ass).
In the last new Indiana Jones And The Crystal Skull movie they mentioned "The Ancient Macedonian Empire" but not the "Ancient Gayreek Gypsy Empire", Whoops! No wonder why the Gayreek Gypsy government of Gayreece (Hell Ass) tried to sue the director/Screen writer/Producer/Buisness magnate Steven Spielberg for telling the truth "Macedonians and Macedonia are not Gayreek Gypsies and not part of Gayreece (Hell Ass)" but the Gayreek Gypsy government of Gayreece (Hell Ass) did not go through with it because they know it will make the Gayreek Gypsy people and government of Gayreece (Hell Ass) look stupid and paranoid and make them look like they got something to hide and territorial claims on their neighbor country Republic Of Macedonia if they went through with it. Macedonian Empire mentioned in the movie Indiana Jones And The Crystal Skull.
Articles about the Gayreek Gypsy government of Gayreece (Hell Ass) try suing Steven Spielberg for using the name "Macedonia" in the new Indiana Jones And The Crystal Skull movie. www.google.com.au/search?q=Greeks+sue+Spielberg+Macedonia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari More Proof and historical facts that proves Macedonians and Macedonia are not Gayreek Gypsies and not part of Gayreece (Hell Ass) but i different nation/race and country. Proof Macedonian's are not Gayreek Gypsies and Macedonia is not part of Gayreece (Hell Ass). Ever since their beginning the Bulgarian, Greek and Serbian tates, and to a lesser extent the Albanian state, have systematically used every means possible, including waging propaganda campaigns, to negate the existence of the Macedonian nation. They have done this not because Macedonians do not exist but purely to usurp Macedonian territories and the rich Macedonian heritage, land, history, culture, national heroes and etc... m.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C00EED71730E733A2575BC1A9639C946596D6CF "Macedonia" is not exclusively Greek. Let me first grant to my critics that ancient Macedonia before the conquests of Alexander the Great was mostly in what is today the Hellenic Republic. I have no doubt about that. Never have. But that in no way gives modern Greece exclusive rights to the term “Macedonia.” Let me illustrate: The modern country that borders Greece to the north fancies itself the Republic of Macedonia. There was no Republic of Macedonia in ancient Greece and no serious possibility of confusion with ancient Macedonia by the use of that term.According to the US Geological Survey, there are eight “locales” in the United States with “Macedonia,” in their names and 1519 other places (many churches, most not of the orthodox variety).There are 28 locales named Athens in the US, three of them towns. Anyone in Greece objecting?In France, a macedoine is a fruit salad. Want to make an issue of that?The United States calls one of its 50 states “New Mexico.” Mexico’s official name is Estados Mexicanos Unidos. There is a lot more history of irredentist claims across the Mexican/American border than across the Macedonia/Greece border. I don’t know anyone who has bothered worrying about the names though, except that some Mexicans would like to get rid of the Estados Unidos part in their own official name.For those concerned about identity theft: citizens of the United States call themselves “Americans.” So do citizens of all the other countries of the Western Hemisphere. I’ve never heard a citizen of the US claim exclusivity, though I have heard citizens of other countries object to the US usage.Macedonia under Alexander expanded into the territory of ancient Paeonia. That’s one of the many reasons he is termed the Great. Aren’t those who want to limit the term to modern Greece depriving their hero of some of his glory? How about the Egyptian city of Alexandria: is that offensive?For those who find the recent architectural innovations in Skopje offensive, please visit Washington DC, which was built as the “New Rome” and mercilessly plundered late-18th century understanding of Greek and Roman architecture. There is even an imitation of the coffered dome of Rome’s ancient Pantheon in the entrance hall of the National Gallery of Art, built however in the 20th century.Those who argue that Skopje should be satisfied with a name like “Republic of Upper Macedonia” need to explain why then Greece is vetoing membership in NATO, which would occur under the country’s UN-accepted name “The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.” The latter, which Greece has rightly accepted under the Interim Accord for many other purposes, is no less distant from the supposedly offensive “Macedonia” or “Republic of Macedonia.” It has three or four “modifiers,” depending on how you count.The only excuse for making an issue of Macedonia’s name is if it were to lay claim to Greek territory. Amendment 1 of the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia reads: “The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.”One of my antagonists on Twitter called me a clown for claiming Greece does not have an exclusive right to the term “Macedonia.” But he wasn’t laughing. I laughed at him. Who’s the clown? www.peacefare.net/?p=19373 Ancient and Modern Evidence about the Distinct Macedonian Nation The long list of modern scholars (among which are Eugene Borza, Waldemer Heckel, A.B. Bosworth, Peter Green, Ernst Badian, Carol Thomas, S.M. Burstain, P.A. Brunt, John Yardley), agree that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, but a distinct nation. Their views align with the Spanish genetic research above. Eugene Borza, Historian, Professor, and Archeologist, whom the American Philological Association refers to as "Macedonian specialist" has written: "It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility." Waldemar Heckel, one of the foremost Alexander scholars in the world, in his Alexander the Great (2004), writes on page 7: “It is clear from the extant historians that the lost sources made a clear distinction between Macedonians and Greeks - ethnically, culturally and linguistically – and this must be an accurate reflection of contemporary attitudes...” In alignment with the genetic results cited above, the ancient Greek and Roman historians also clearly excluded Macedonia from Greece as a distinct country, and the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation. Not one ancient historian wrote that Macedonia is “Northern Province of Greece” or that the Macedonians are “northern Greeks”. The Greek orator Demosthenes, spoke of Alexander the Great’s father Philip II as "not only as not a Greek but nor related to the Greeks, but a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" (Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31). Justin, the Roman historian from the 3rd century AD wrote: "Antipater was appointed governor of Macedonia and Greece" (Justin 13.4.5) Arrian, the ancient Greek historian from the 2nd century AD wrote: "Darius' Greek mercenaries attacked the Macedonian phalanx… the Macedonian centre did not set to with equal impetus… and the Greeks attacked where they saw that the phalanx had been particularly torn apart. There the action was severe, the Greeks tried to push off the Macedonians into the river and to reserve victory to their own side but failed… There was also some emulation between antagonists of the Greek and Macedonian races" (Arrian 2.10.4-7). Plutarch, the ancient Greek historian from 1st century AD quoted Alexander’s words where the king himself separates the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation: “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?” (Alex.51.2) Conclusion Please consider the Macedonian position when approaching Stone’s Alexander. Alexander and his Macedonians would have been appalled by Stone who had tried to make them fighting for Greece, when the ancient evidence says they fought for Macedonia, since they were not Greeks as the ancient authors testify. Genetic Differences Between Macedonians in Greece and the Greeks. American Association for the Advancement of Science. In the genetic analysis published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, participated Macedonians from the Macedonian minority of Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia) and Greeks, among with other European nations. The research shows a drastic difference in the Y chromosome genetic composition between the Greeks and Macedonians who live in Greece, as figure 3 clearly demonstrates. This is another proof that the Macedonians (the descendents of the Macedonians of Alexander the Great) which after the occupation of southern Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) by the Greek army in 1913 find themselves living in Greece, have genetically never been Greeks. More proof Macedonians from Macedonia are not Greeks and Greeks are not Macedonians. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbours, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbours, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrians, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages. 2. Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian conquest, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria. 3. Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Philip II's son took the Macedonian armies even further and conquered the Persian Empire, making Macedonia the largest and most powerful nation in the world for centuries to come. In his army next to the Macedonians, he utilized also troops from the Balkan nations that his father Philip II conquered - Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The Greeks in the Macedonian army however were commanded by Macedonians, their contribution in the conquest was insignificant and miniscule, and modern historiography calls them nothing but Macedonian "hostages" who would ensure a good behavior of their friends and families back in Greece (Peter Green, Urlich Wilcken, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, A.B. Bosworth). Aware that the Greeks despised the Macedonians, Alexander left massive Macedonian occupation troops in their country before heading for the conquest of Persia, although he knew that he would need as many as possible Macedonians for the dangerous campaign ahead. He however rid himself of the Greeks in his army the first chance he got, after burning the Persian capital Persepolis, and learning that the last Greek state Sparta was defeated by the Macedonian troops he left to watch rebellious Greece. 4. Despite all, the Greeks never stopped fighting the Macedonians. While Alexander was conquering Persia with his 25-30,000 Macedonians, more then 50,000 Greeks actually fought on the side of the Persians against the Macedonians (Curtius). The Macedonians slaughtered 18,000 of them in the first battle and sent 2,000 to forced labor in Macedonia (Arrian). After Alexander died the Macedonian general Pithon massacred 23,000 more in a single battle when the Greeks revolted in Bactria (Diodorus). In Greece, when the news of Alexander the Great's death became known, the Greeks united once again and threw out the Macedonians out of their country in the Lamian War (Diodorus). But the Macedonian army returned with massive reinforcements, defeated the Greeks both on land and sea, and re-occupied Greece, putting a bloody end of the Lamian War (Diodorus). The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle, 1903-1905!The title of the book in English,“The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle: From Ilinden to Zagorichani (1903-1905)” by Dimitrios Lithoksoou.SynopsisThis is a powerful book for those who have been following the conflict over the Macedonian Question. It describes events in Ottoman Macedonia at the beginning of the 20th century and sheds some light on what followed when part of the Macedonian territory was annexed by Greece after the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913. This book is must reading for Macedonians and Greeks witnessing the hatred promoted by Greek officials, who manipulate Greek public opinion and turn the populace against the Macedonian minority within its borders.The author shows how Greek nationalism is founded on lies. He illustrates how facts have been distorted during the construction of the Greek national mythology. Mr. Lithoksoou unmasks the Greek “heroes” such as Pavlos Melas and Bishop Germanos Karavangelis.Despite the denials, it is clear the bloody events of the near past were deliberately directed against the Macedonian civilian population.The author uses original source material from those who took an active role in the events and intrigues of Ottoman Macedonia just prior to its partitioning.We recommend you purchase a copy of this book and give it to your Greek speaking friends to help them understand what has happened to Macedonia and the Macedonian people.The book includes an ethnographic map of the period. The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle, 1903-1905 Ethnographic map of west Macedonia. i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Toponimi.jpg Explanation the coloring of the Legend; RED-Macedonians Christians BROWN-Macedonians Muslims PINK-Vlachs Christians YELLOW-Albanians Christians and Muslims GREEN-Turks Muslims DARK BLUE-Greeks Christians LIGHT BLUE-Greeks Muslims BLACK-Gypsies GREY-Others More old maps of Macedonia proving Macedonians and Macedonia are not Greek. Macedonians noted on a Hungarian map of the Balkans, 1897. Translation of the Legend: 1. Serbs 2. Serbs and Macedonians 3. Bulgarians 4. Albanians 5. Greeks 6. Osmans 7. Rumanians and Tsintsars 8. Albanians and Serbians 9. Greeks and Albanians 10. Greeks and Osmans 11. Bulgarians and Osmans Source: Pallas Nagy Lexikona, name of the map “A BALKÁN-FÉLSZIGET NÉPRAJZI TÉRKÉPE” translated into English “Ethnographic Map of the Balkan Peninsula” The A Pallas Nagy Lexikona (The Pallas Great Lexicon) was the first complete Hungarian encyclopedia which was not a translation. It was published by the Pallas Literary and Press Corporation between 1893 and 1897. The encyclopedia comprised 16 volumes, 150 000 articles, and the work of 300 authors. i57.tinypic.com/o0ntwh.jpg i61.tinypic.com/b8veyc.jpg i62.tinypic.com/r7okya.jpg More other maps of Macedonia proving Macedonians and Macedonia are not Greek but a different land/country and different people/race. i62.tinypic.com/34529ht.jpg i60.tinypic.com/33uqwx3.jpg i59.tinypic.com/aufaj9.jpg i62.tinypic.com/2e5nkw1.jpg Genetic Differences Between Macedonians in Greece and the Greeks American Association for the Advancement of Science In the genetic analysis published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, participated Macedonians from the Macedonian minority of Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia) and Greeks, among with other European nations. The research shows a drastic difference in the Y chromosome genetic composition between the Greeks and Macedonians who live in Greece, as figure 3 clearly demonstrates. This is another proof that the Macedonians (the descendents of the Macedonians of Alexander the Great) which after the occupation of southern Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) by the Greek army in 1913 find themselves living in Greece, have genetically never been Greeks. www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Y_Hromosomes.pdf Sclavonic is spoken in Macedon, Greek is a dead tongue, 1630 Source: “Epistolae Ho-Elianae:Familiar letters” by James Howell, 10th edition, 1737. As you readers can see for yourself, James Howell was an eyewitness to the state of things in 1630, he correctly notes that Sclavonic(Slavic) is spoken in all of Macedon(Macedonia) and that the Greek is an almost dead language of his time, only spoken in a few places and very degenerate at that, it is as if the “nation of the Greeks” does not exist, they are nowhere to be found. They are more Barbarian then the Barbarians themselves. So why do our modern Greeks claim that we Macedonians never existed and that Macedonia has a 4000 year old “Greek” history, you must be an imbecile to even consider such a Propagandistic view of history. History has spoken. i62.tinypic.com/28m31qg.jpg i59.tinypic.com/2gt87dv.jpg i62.tinypic.com/21bssw6.jpg i59.tinypic.com/fmrnd0.jpg For most of the 20th century, the transition from the Bronze to the Iron Age over much of Greece and the Aegean was widely referred to as the Dark Age. Interpretations of the period in Macedonia, as elsewhere, were often colored by stories of migrations and invasions. Nonetheless, the terminological consensus over the labeling of this uneasy period as a 'Dark Age' DID NOT extend to Macedonia; the term 'Early Iron Age' was systematically – and emphatically – preferred instead. The reasons for this idiosyncratic choice are not explicitly referred to in relevant literature, but will be shown to depend on: the conceptual load of the two terms; disciplinary constructs concerning the prehistory of Macedonia; and the DIFFERENT HISTORICAL TRAJECTORIES of Macedonia and the southern "Greek" mainland in the Late Bronze Age.(Antonis Kotsonas, Solun Archaeological Museum). www.amazon.com/Alexander-Great-Macedonian-Empire-Courses/dp/B006VOWHE6 The title of the book in English, “The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle: From Ilinden to Zagorichani (1903-1905)” by Dimitrios Lithoksoou. Synopsis This is a powerful book for those who have been following the conflict over the Macedonian Question. It describes events in Ottoman Macedonia at the beginning of the 20th century and sheds some light on what followed when part of the Macedonian territory was annexed by Greece after the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913. This book is must reading for Macedonians and Greeks witnessing the hatred promoted by Greek officials, who manipulate Greek public opinion and turn the populace against the Macedonian minority within its borders. The author shows how Greek nationalism is founded on lies. He illustrates how facts have been distorted during the construction of the Greek national mythology. Mr. Lithoksoou unmasks the Greek “heroes” such as Pavlos Melas and Bishop Germanos Karavangelis. Despite the denials, it is clear the bloody events of the near past were deliberately directed against the Macedonian civilian population. The author uses original source material from those who took an active role in the events and intrigues of Ottoman Macedonia just prior to its partitioning. We recommend you purchase a copy of this book and give it to your Greek speaking friends to help them understand what has happened to Macedonia and the Macedonian people. The book includes an ethnographic map of the period. To buy the book please visit, www.florina.org/archive/books/lithoksoou/lithoksou.html Book title picture. i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Knigaodkadeekartata.jpg More information about the book in the link below. makedonika.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/the-greek-anti-macedonian-struggle-1903-1905/ p1.Documents of the Continued Existence of Macedonia and the Macedonian Nation for a period of over 2500 years What follows are documents that speak of the continued existence of Macedonia and of the Macedonian nation through the last 25 centuries. Macedonia is clearly distinguished from Greece (Hellas), Thrace, Illyria, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the Macedonians are likewise distinguished as distinct nation from the Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, as nation which continued to exist and survive trough the centuries ( makedonika.org ).500 B.C.- 500 A.D.Macedonia and the Macedonians as distinct nation in the works of the ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, as well in the works of the modern German, French, English, American historians. 586 A.D. From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313758-759 A.D.From the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor "That year Constantine plundered the Sclavinii throughout Macedonia and subjugated the rest." Theoph., I, p.430, 21-22.From the Chronographia Tripertita by Anastasius Bibliothecarius: "In the eighteenth year of his reign, Constantine enslaved the Sclavinii of Macedonia and he subjugated the rest." A. B., p.282, 20-21.8th Century From Strabonos Epithomatus: "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and Macedonia have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." C. Muller, Geographi graeci minores, Paris 1882, p.574. 821-823 A.D. From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: "Thomas...having gathered our barges and dromon, had the opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and Macedonia." Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759904From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297First half of 10th C.From On the Themes by Constantine Porphyrogenitus: "... So from a kingdom Macedonia turned into a province and now it has reached the position of a theme and strategy." C. Porfirogenito, De thematibus, Citta del Vaticano, 1952.986 p1. Medieval Sourcebook:The Great Fair at Thessalonica Mid 12th century The site of the most fair in Byzantine world came to be the city of Thessalonica, which in later centuries was almost as important a city as the Capital. Merchants came to Thessalonica from all over the East as well as the West. This fair was probably larger in size than the famous contemporary fair at Champagne in France. The follow is taken from the Timarion, a satirical work in the style of the ancient writer Lucian. It describes the fair of Thessalonica as it was in the mid-twelft century, a period in which that city not only was of economic importance but was becoming significant culturally as well. The Demetria is a festival, like the Panathenaea at Athens and the Panionia among the Milesians, and it is at the same time the ****Most important fair held in Macedonia.*** Not only do the natives of the country flock together to it in great numbers, but multitudes also come from all lands and of every race - Greeks, wherever they are found, the various tribes of Mysians [i.e. people of Moesia] who dwell on our borders as far as the Ister and Scythia, Campanians and other Italians, Iberians, Lusitanians, and Transalpine Celts [this is Byzantine way of describing the Bulgarians, &c., Neapolitans, Spaniards, Portuguese, and French]; and, to make a long story short, the shores of the ocean send pilgrims and suppliants to visit the martyr, so widely extended is his fame throughout Europe. For myself, being a Cappadocian from beyond the boundaries of the empire,[this country was now under the Seljuk sultans of Iconium] and having never before been present on the occasion, but having only heard it described, I was anxious to get a bird's eye view of the whole scene, that I might pass over nothing unnoticed. With this object I made my way up to a height close by the scene of the fair, where I sat down and surveyed everything at my leisure. What I saw there was a number of merchants' booths, set up in parallel rows opposite one another; and these rows extended to a great length, and were sufficiently wide apart to leave a broad space in the middle, so as to give free passage for the stream of the people. Looking at the closeness of the booths to one another and the regularity of their position, one might take them for lines drawn lengthwise from two opposite points. At right angles to these, other booths were set up, also forming rows, though of no great length, so that they resembled the tiny feet that grow outside the bodies of certain reptiles. Curious indeed it was, that while in reality there were two rows, they presented the appearance of a single animal, owing to the booths being so near and so straight; for lines suggested a long body, while the crossrows at the sides looked like the feet that supported it. I declare than when I looked down from the heights above on the ground plan of the fair, I could not help comparing it to a centipede, a very long insect with innumerable small feet under Its belly. p2. Medieval Sourcebook:The Great Fair at ThessalonicaMid 12th century And if you are anxious to know what it contained, my inquisitive friend, as I saw it afterwards when I came down from the hills - well, there was every kind of material woven or spun by men or women, all those that come from Boeotia and the Peloponnese, and all that are brought in trading ships from Italy to Greece. Besides this, Phoencia furnishes numerous articles, and Egypt, and Spain, and the pillars of Hercules, where the finest coverlets are manufactured. These things the merchants bring direct from their respective countries to old Macedonia and Thessalonica; but the Euxine also contributes to the splendour of the fair by sending across its products to Constantinople, whence the cargoes are brought by numerous horses and mules. All this I went through and carefully examined afterwards when I came down; but even while I was still seated on the height above I was struck with wonder at the number and variety of the animals, and the extraordinary confusion of' their noises which assailed my ears-horses neighing, oxen lowing, sheep bleating, pigs grunting, and dogs barking, for these also accompany their masters as a defence against wolves an thieves. www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/thess-fair.html Greek Consul in Bitola (Monastir),Ion Dragoumis recognizes the Macedonian language in 1907!Here is a translation of the above text into English:-You cannot own every city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Marseille would be yours, as well as Odessa-The same observation more or less I make of you.You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns where the Macedonian language is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.- Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!Do they wish to be Greeks or not?And since they do want(to be Greek), Im not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their houses not in public(agora), where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual land(earth/dirt) is Greek.- I can not understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.-I can not see how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tartars lost their language and took…Ion Dragoumis,“Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Blood”, edition Malliaris-Paideia (photocopy of the 1907 edition), page 98.Above is noted the MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE and the MACEDONIANS.Ion Dragoumis is equating Church affiliation into nationality a common practice by the Greeks of the day, non the less he notes that there is a Macedonian language which is not Bulgarian, he also notes the Macedonians. Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika Dear Sir, Please excuse the liberty I take in writing you, it is because the final settlement in the Balkans is of vital interest to the Catholics in these countries.- I have been 33 years in this Mission, the Uniate Catholic Mission, which at the beginning of the Second Balkan War counted about 10,000 Catholics. The Treaty of Bucharest, which divided Macedonia without any regard to justice, was the cause of these poor people being dispersed on account of their Slav language, which was forbidden in Churches and schools.- The Bishop had his residence in Salonika, he has now been in exile more then 3 years, his priests are dispersed, his flock is indeed without pastors, nor do we have any hope of his return to any place under Greek or Serbian rule.- The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in Churches or schools; the inhabitants of Macedonia are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves Macedonians, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control.- I whatever way Macedonia might be divided; the people would be always discontented, and would fight again as soon as possible. The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the Macedonians, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave Macedonia under people whom the Macedonians hate, and whom they will continually fight... Public Record Office (London)- FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), 1919. Map of Aegean Macedonia showing the areas where Macedonians live Compiled and submitted to the European Parliament by the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia in Greece On July 6, 2000 in its 310th edition, the Macedonian weekly magazine Macedonian Sun (Makedonsko Sontse), under the title "Where are the Macedonians?", published on its front page the map of Aegean Macedonia which became part of Northern Greece after the partition of Macedonia in 1913. The map depicts the areas where the ethnic Macedonians today live in Greece. It was compiled by the Macedonians in Greece and submitted to the European Parliament. In the cities, towns, and villages in the yellow areas, the Macedonians make up 100% of the population, while in the red are marked the areas where they make between 50 and 100%. The rest of the uncolored areas, the Macedonians are minority among the Greeks with less then 50% of the population. Taking in consideration this map made by the Macedonians of Greece, we put the data of the approximate area and marked with red where the Macedonians make a majority in Aegean Macedonia (50% to 100%) and where they make minority we used red stripes while in the same time representing the Greeks with blue stripes. One can easily see that the Macedonians make up majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia, bordering the Republic of Macedonia and the Pirin part of Macedonia in Bulgaria where Macedonians also live. In the other southern half of Aegean Macedonia the Macedonians are minority. The population of Aegean Macedonia is about 2,000,000 which would result that the Macedonian minority in Greece numbers about 1,000,000 people. The Greek government claims that in Greece live 98% Greeks and that there is not one national minority in the country. These claims are clearly an exaggeration as every country in Europe has national minorities. Therefore Human Rights Watch was correct when after visiting Aegean Macedonia concluded that the "large Macedonian minority" in Greece is under daily oppression, and urged Greece to end its discrimination. www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/MapMacedoniansinGreece.html Arsenij Jovkov's movie "Macedonia" (1923)MACEDONIA IN PICTURES Culture. Screening of a restored documentary,“Macedonia in Pictures”(1923) by Arsenij Jovkov and four other ethnological films is formally opening the 2009 Film Program at the Cinematheque of Macedonia tomorrow. “'Macedonia in Pictures,’ which was restored at Jadran Film in Zagreb us of special importance for Macedonia and the Macedonian identity. One of the oldest materials in possession of the Cinematheque, the film was shot to mark the 20th anniversary of Ilinden Uprising,” Director of the Cinematheque Mimi Gjorgoska-Ilievska said. Besides Jovkov’s film, the evening will also see newly restored “Easter Customs”(1945) by Aco Petrovski; “Gjurgovden Customs in Skopje Area”(1956) by Blagoja Drnkov; “Fisery in Lake Katlanovo”(1964) and “Mariovo Wedding”(1966) by Vera Klickova in an event accompanied on the piano by Stefan Panovski and by the Baklava band. Gjorgoska-Ilievska announced presentation of prominent figures from film art for this year. One of the first guests in March is Jiří Menzel, one of the European most influential film authors. The Cinematheque will also organize a festival of American classical western movies in collaboration with the US Embassy. Collaboration with the Japanese Embassy in Vienna brings a retrospective of the modern author’s films in March. Furthermore, there will be a Week of Francophony with modern films shot in French-speaking areas as well as a retrospective of films by an Italian author and presentation of the Czech cinematography. [Culture.in.mk] Posted by Macedonia Daily
(If screen turns green, fast forward video a few seconds). Macedonia in Pictures”(1923) by Arsenij Jovkov Arsenij Jovkov's movie "Macedonia", in which the transfer of Gotse Delchev's relics were presented (Sofia, 1923)Ars enij Jovkov (1884-1924), the ethnic Macedonian fighter for national liberation, journalist, writer, photographer and cinematographer - author of the screenplay of the feature film "Ilinden" and the documentary "Macedonia". Only the prologue and the first part of the "Ilinden" screenplay have been preserved. The text is divided into pictures, and the action is occasionally explained by subtitles. It has not been known the exact period of its creation, though some indications lead to 1919 at the latest. The script of Arsenij Jovkov was written in a folk drama style.This particular script, and the one written for the documentary "Macedonia" (1923), shows that Jovkov had a feeling for the film medium and that he knew the rules of film aesthetics and shaping up of the visual material. ;„Macedonia", Movie from 1923, in duration of 10 minutes.The movie is created in standard technique, without sound, in black and white and 35mm The majority of Macedonians who migrated to Canada arrived in the aftermath of the**** Illinden Uprising of 1903 -*** a heroic but unsuccessful attempt by Macedonians to end Ottoman domination. An internal group census in 1910 found about 1090 Macedonians in Toronto, principally from the provinces of Kostur (Kastoria) and Lerin (Florina), areas which were once important vilayets of the Ottoman Empire but are now identified as portions of northern Greece. By 1940 readers of various Macedonian political and nationalist almanacs were informed that there were upwards of 1200 families in Toronto. The exodus of Macedonians from northern Greece was to continue in the aftermath of WWII and the Greek Civil War (1947-49). Immigration from Vardar (formerly Yugoslav) Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria also began in the postwar period. This exodus gained momentum in the 1960s and continues to the present. Government indices of population are not helpful in determining the size of the community because Macedonians fell under the general heading of those from Turkey, Greece, Serbia (or Yugoslavia) and Bulgaria. The most recent Canadian census (1996), which provides for self-declaration of ethnic origin records 30 915 Macedonians in Canada - the sum total of individuals making single- or multiple-group responses. Centered in Metropolitan Toronto, small groups of Macedonians could also be found elsewhere in Ontario in Cambridge, Guelph, Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo, Markham, Mississauga, Newmarket, Niagara Falls, St Catharines, Thornhill, Thorold and Windsor. Community spokespersons believe that there are actually 100-150 000 Macedonians in Canada. Many early Macedonian immigrants found industrial work in Toronto, either as factory hands or labourers in abattoirs, local sheet metal industries, or iron and steel foundries. From these jobs, they quickly progressed to the ownership of a great number of restaurants, grocery stores and butcher shops. Macedonian entrepreneurs and their descendants eventually employed their numerical strength within the food service industry as a catapult into a variety of larger and more sophisticated ventures. The majority of Macedonians today are employed in the professional, clerical and service sector of the economy. www.macedonianhistory.ca/ The Conquest of Greece Quote; Ordering the Macedonian troops to lift the sieges of the two Greek cities, Philip led the army northward across Thrace. In the spring of 339 the Macedonians clashed with the Scythians near Danube, who had recently crossed the river with large army. Philip won a stunning victory in which the Scythian king Areas was killed and took 20,000 Scythian women and children as slaves. But on the return to Macedonia, the Thracian Triballians attacked the Macedonian convoy. The booty was lost, Philip suffered a severe injury which left him permanently lame, and the army returned home empty-handed. The Conquest of Greece Philip spent the following months in Macedonia recovering from the injury, but there was no time to relax. The Greeks were uniting and assembling a large army, and as historian Peter Green observed 'if Philip did not move fast it would be they who invaded his territory, not he theirs’. As soon as he recovered, Philip assembled the largest Macedonian army yet,***gave his 18-year-old son Alexander*** a commanding post*** among the senior Macedonian generals, and marched into Greece. The Greeks likewise assembled their largest army since the Persian invasion to face the Macedonian invasion. At Chaeronea in central Greece where the two armies met, the whole of Greece put 35,000 infantry and 2,000 cavalry on the field, while the Macedonians had 30,000 infantry and 2,000 cavalry. Although outnumbered, with suburb tactics and well coordination of the phalanx with the cavalry, the Macedonian ‘barbarian’ defeated the ***united Greek army***. Among the Greeks, the Athenians, Thebans, and the Achaeans suffered the biggest losses. The ancient Roman and Greek historians, consider the battle of Chaeronea, on August 2nd, 338 BC as an end to Greek liberty and history. ***Greece will not regain its freedom from foreign occupation until early 19th century AD.*** Alexander the great used the Corinthian leagues treaty in his favor to invade Persia.The Corinthian leagueIn August 338, the Macedonian king Philip had defeated an army of Athenians and Thebans on the plain of Chaeronea, a town in Central Greece (story). The Macedonian victory meant the end of the independence of the Greek towns: Philip forced them to join the Corinthian league. The Roman author Marcus Junianus Justinus -in English better known as Justin- gives a description of the first meeting in his Excerpt of the History of Philip by Pompeius Trogus (section 9.5). The translation was made by Michael Crawford and David Whitehead. After he had settled matters in Greece, Philip ordered that envoys should be summoned to Corinth from all the states with a view to consolidating the settlement. He there propounded a covenant of peace for the whole of Greece, giving each state the share that it deserved, and he created a council of representatives to serve as a sort of common senate. ***Only the Spartans refused to have anything to do with the king or with the covenant; they considered that a settlement imposed by the victor instead of being agreed on by the states concerned meant **enslavement,** not peace.*** Next, the military contributions were fixed that the individual states were to make, whether to assist the king against attack or for making war under his command. But everyone realized that these arrangements were directed against the Persian empire.The text of the treaty has been partly preserved. The first line runs like this: I swear by Zeus, Earth, Sun, Poseidon, Athena, Ares, and all the gods and goddesses. • I will abide by the peace; • I will not break the agreements with Philip the Macedonian; • nor will I take up arms with hostile intent against any one of those who abide by the oaths either by land or by sea. The provisions of the treaty were: 1. that the constitutions of the member states would remain unchanged; 2. that violence between the member states was no longer permitted; 3. that, in case of the overthrow of a government, a congress of representatives, was to meet at Corinth; 4. that it would establish the facts and declare war; 5. that the league's army was to be commanded by Philip; 6. that the league's member states would sent a number of soldiers to the league's army in proportion to their size. www.livius.org/aj-al/alexander/alexander_t43.html Alexander add his Guards During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language, as the native language language of ***Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9,*** *** 37 ). Similarly, Plutarch points out that Alexander spoke to his fellow countrymen in Macedonian: "he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).*** Still, Alexander spoke Macedonian and also Greek, loved Homer, and respected his tutor Aristotle. At the same time though, there is much evidence that generally he was not fond of the Greeks of his day. The chronicler Curtius, describing the atmosphere before a battle, gave a notion of the different attitudes of the great commander, who psychognostically applied the principle of identity to every ethnic group in his army. In respect to the various motives for taking part in that war, Curtius wrote: "Riding to the front line he [Alexander the Great] named the soldiers and they responded from spot to spot where they were lined up. The Macedonians, who had won so many battles in Europe and set off to invade Asia ... got encouragement from him - he reminded them of their permanent values. They were the world's liberators and one day they would pass the frontiers set by Hercules and Patter Liber. They would subdue all races on Earth. Bactrius and India would become Macedonian provinces. Getting closer to the Greeks, he reminded them that those were the people who provoked war with Macedonia,... those were the people that burned their temples and cities ... As the Illirians and Trakians lived mainly from plunder, he told them to look at the enemy line glittering in gold ..." Q. C. Rufus, Alexander III, 10, 4-10 Alexander phalanx had to be add in Macedonian This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he send a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood". It is documented that Ambiance had experienced extreme difficulties in commanding the Macedonian soldiers. His disability was "not only his Greek birth, as has always being realized, but the simple fact that he could not directly communicate with the Macedonian soldiers". "His alien culture and provenance were not only obvious in an accent; it was a matter of a language". ["It was a matter of a language..."] Dictionary Definition of Greece A country of southeast Europe on the southern Balkan Peninsula and including numerous islands in the Mediterranean, Aegean, and Ionian seas. Settled by Achaeans, Aeolians, Ionians, Minoans, and ***Dorians ***by 1000 B.C., the region grew as an amalgam of independent city-states, many of which established colonies throughout the Mediterranean by the eighth century B.C.. **** Classical Greek culture, centered around Athens, reached a high point in the fifth century B.C. before being ***conquered*** by Philip II of Macedon in 338 B.C.***. The area was later controlled by the Roman and Byzantine empires before being absorbed into the Ottoman empire (1456). In 1829, Greece gained its independence and established a constitutional monarchy. The king was deposed following a military coup in 1967, and a democratic republic was established in 1975. Athens is the capital and the largest city. Population: 10,700,000. (Download Now or Buy the Book)http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greece%20****Dorian tribe was already settled with the hell-ass before Macedonians conquered your city states.**** ##Read it carefully, you the hellass never gained your freedom from Macedon rule you where only in corporate in the Roman, Byzantium and Ottoman Empires.## 1*** Classical Greek culture, centered around Athens, reached a high point in the fifth century B.C. before being ***conquered*** by Philip II of Macedon in 338 B.C.***. ***Hellass never gained freedom from Macedon rule you where only in corporate in the Roman, Byzantium and Ottoman Empires*** 2***The meaning and truth of this statement are alike in doubt; but he probably refers only to the tribe inhabiting the vicinity of Dodona, in Epirus.*** 3***At any rate, Graeci and Graecia owed their introduction practically to the Romans after their contact with the Greeks in the war with Pyrrhus, and in consequence they included*** ***(what "Hellenes" and "Hellas" did not) Epirus and Macedonia.***http://www.bible-history.com/new_testament_ci Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The Ancient Greeks by J.S. Gandeto An impressive book on the differences between the two ancient nations - Macedonians and Greeks. "To understand the history of the ancient Macedonians, their ethnogenesis and their innermost drives as people, we need to analyze and comprehend, first and foremost, their deeply rooted material culture. Only by sifting meticulously through the thick layered strata of their rich culture can we discover and appreciate who this ancient people were. The rare glimpses into their intricate and deeply carved traditions afford us a window of luxury through which the plumage of their race emerges and becomes recognizable. Coupled with numerous anecdotes recorded and preserved through time and epitaphs that are impervious to politics and change, we now have a sizeable body of truth to know and believe that ancient Macedonians were, what they said they were—Macedonians" (from the publisher). "It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks" (synopsis). PREFACE The aim of this paper is to acquaint students with the basic differences between ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks. For too many years it was an accepted practice to view the ancient Macedonians as Greeks. Little attention was paid to the fact that, ancient biographers and chroniclers left us with no impression that these two dissimilar people were of the same ethnicity or nationality. On the contrary, their reporting is clear and unambiguously explicit and leaves little room for subsequent second-guessing and interpretation. To them, ancient Macedonians constituted people, and a nation quite separate, and in stark contrast, to the Greeks. They militarily subdued the Greeks and subsequently treated them as conquered people; albeit more favorably then the rest of the people in the empire, but conquered subject they were, nevertheless. Roman and Greek biographers, like Curtius Rufus, Polybius, Plutarch, Arrian, Diodorus, Justin and Herodotus described the ancient Macedonians as being a people quite distinct and separate from the ancient Greeks. Neither from an historical point of view, nor from a philosophical or military one, were these people ever regarded as one and the same with the ancient Greeks. Their neighborly discourse, as destiny will have it, was regularly embroidered with constant hostility and mutual antipathy (Borza 1990). Whether the reasons for the inclusion of Macedonian studies under Greek history are the result of western sentiments felt toward Greek cultural heritage, or towards Greece as the land where western Christianity took up roots for the first time, or the obvious sympathies they held so dear for the first democratic form of government that originated with the ancient Greek city-states, or not, are of secondary importance to us, and carry no relevancy to the issue of ethno-genesis of the ancient Macedonians. Surely, these are compelling elements that carry enormous influence, but, by the same token, these same elements, if used and employed in the service of securing lasting and verifiable body of historical knowledge would both, distort the truth and undermine the trust in scholarly research. In my opinion, there was a void that needed to be filled, since the scholarship concerning the Argead Dynasty of Macedon slowly and progressively, in the last forty years, has been steadily gaining ground, not as an extension of Greek history, as it was viewed and included under, but as a separate and unique unit of ancient history under the Macedonian period. Although, the term "Hellenistic" period may still be acceptable as a cultural classification of the time during and after Alexander the Great, the term "Macedonistic" period should, and ought to be, used to cover any other historical references. There is no denying that the period from Alexander the Great until well into the Roman time deals with Macedonian Dynasties, their rule, succession and their eventual interaction, or lack there of with the indigenous local populations throughout the Balkan Peninsula, Asia and Egypt. Here, the term "Hellenistic” can hardly do any justice to historical scholarship since its coverage/domain leaves a huge section of history barely touched. Hellenism, the term Johan Gustaf Droysen gave to this era, is such a narrow cultural belt of history that its usage is not only misleading and inappropriate but it also distorts and minimizes the greatness of the ancient Macedonians. Even though the Greek contribution, from a cultural point of view, may be argued to have occupied a place of pivotal importance in the administrative sector of the empire, the organizational, the military and the structural components of this Macedonian Empire must have been obtained, delivered and maintained strictly from Macedonian resources and for Macedonian interests. The concept of an empire, an esoteric notion for the Greeks, was born with the first few initial successes of Alexander, and its meaning, magnitude, scope and structure grew as the string of victories and the success on the battlefields allowed Alexander to enlarge, coordinate and control huge land areas in Asia and Egypt. For almost 3 centuries after Alexander, it was his successors that carried the symbols and the name of the Macedonian Empire. Thus, the very narrow strip of "Hellenism" that comes, as a residue, attached to the period in question, cannot, in any meaningful way, embrace and encompass the scope and the magnitude of an empire that was built, organized and maintained on the strength and the efficiency of the Macedonian army. Greeks in antiquity were in possession of diverse arrays of sophisticated disciplines of the first order: dramas, tragedies, myths, biographies, histories, sciences, material culture and a flair for exoticism, but not empire. And here, lies the greatest obstacle for the circle to be completed. Macedonians, on the other hand, were in possession of an empire and a handful of other disciplines necessary for the immediate needs and sustenance of it. Droysen's idea to combine both, the Greeks and the Macedonians under one name is certainly appealing from a German point of view, since it finds analogous development of the German states under the strong leadership of Prussia; but it falls significantly short in balancing the immiscible union of contrastingly separate peoples. Nineteenth century Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as people of the same ethnicity (Politis 1993:36; Dimaras 1958; Karagatsis, 1952).(1) Greeks in the late eighteen hundreds and earl nineteenth century viewed the Macedonians as conquerors of Greece. Only after the Megale Idea took up roots in the Greek scholarship, did Greeks embark on providing and securing 'evidence' for their new political vision; which was born and bred from the limbs of the rapidly decaying Ottoman Empire. Macedonia was the only Balkan country left under the Turkish rule after the congress of Berlin in 1878. After the national uprising in 1903 that ended with catastrophic consequences for the Macedonian populace, the leadership of the country was largely decimated by the lawless bands of Turkish marauders, who mercilessly and indiscriminately slaughtered the defenseless masses. Consequently, the Macedonians found themselves too exhausted and leaderless, and lacked political will and stamina to rise up again and unite their bewildered and poor brethren into a cohesive political unit. This calamitous situation, coupled with the prevailing lawlessness and the "illness of the Sultan", was exploited by the neighbors of Macedonia who launch their own armed bands and political agitators to prepare, and secure for themselves a piece of the Macedonian territory.(2) Thus, the Serbs, the Bulgarians and the Greeks succeeded in partitioning Macedonia among themselves in 1913 with the treaty of Bucharest, and with this act most of ancient Macedonia was incorporated into the Greek state for the first time (Borza 1990). Ever since then, Greece has fervently attempted to stamp a permanent Hellenic imprint on this land. The latest dispute about the name "Macedonia" between Greece and the newly proclaimed Macedonian Republic, which was created by the break up of Yugoslavia, signifies the enormity of the weight to establish and maintain connection with the ancient Macedonians. From the Republic of Macedonia's point of view, it is a matter of human rights and people's rights to call its own country any name its people wished to choose for it, while Greece views it as appropriation of cultural rights. For a more detailed analysis of the ongoing saga between Republic of Macedonia and Greece regarding ownership of the names "Macedonia", and "Macedonian", please see the recently published work "Macedonia: Cultural Right or Cultural Appropriation?" by Larry Reimer.(3) At first glance the dispute appears to be centered on judicial matters of human rights, and people's right for self-determination, versus cultural inheritance, and cultural appropriation. This is the tip of the iceberg, wile the remaining bulk of the impasse is more splenetic one, and deals with who has the right to claim the ancient Macedonians as their progenitors; and thereby stake the claim on anything Macedonian. Even though, establishing and proving a connection with the ancients is a tenuous adventure, the impetus and the stakes involved decidedly override the issue.(4) Thus, it is not surprising to find the Greeks passionately embroidered in support of their well known stands that ancient Macedonians were Greeks, and that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land.(5) Most of the Greek authors tend to show, and present uniformly packaged convictions that ancient Macedonians spoke the Greek language, had practiced the same religion as the other Greeks, that their personal names and place names are inevitably Greek (6) , and that ancient Macedonians came from the same stock as Greek people. In other words, these authors, as opposed to others whose believes are derived from their own personal convictions, tend to strictly adhere and taw the government line.(7) It is interesting to note Peter Green's passage about modern Greeks' view of Alexander: "The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century BC, to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half Epirote barbarian conqueror, would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did" (Green 1991: xv). One of the well-known Greek author A P Daskalakis in 1965 wrote a book entitled "The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians," where he meticulously elaborates on all issues of dispute regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. While the work is quite extensive in its coverage of all pertinent aspects currently in contention, his omission of some is telling.(8) Professor Daskalakis-who, to a large extent, can be viewed to represent the prevailing "Greek position"--provides evidence in support of his thesis as he sees it fit. On our part, we will endeavor to present the other side of the story, and also to provide scholarly evidence as we see it fit. The reader is free to pick and choose what he wishes. Other aspects of the alleged "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians will be covered and addressed accordingly. Notes Preface 1. Politis (1993: 40-42) cites fourteen examples from the Greek literature of the 1794-1841 period in which the ancient Macedonians are not considered to be part of the ancient Greek world. Karagatsis said that 'it was an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks'. 2. Useful and quite persuasive reading one can find in Ferdinand Schevill's book A History of the Balkans-From the Earliest Times to the Present Day. Published by Dorset Press 1991. We shall bring forward one particular passage that succinctly depicts the Macedonian position before the Balkan wars. “Thus, before the close of the nineteenth century, Macedonia was the scene of a triangular struggle conducted chicfly with the tools of church and schools for the conquest of the mind of the inhabitants; and if by that time the bulk of the Vardar Slavs had gone over to the Bulgar camp, the Serbs had at least managed to gain a foothold to the north of the Shar Dagh mountain, while the Greeks solidly maintained their traditional grip on the southern district contiguous to Thessaly" (p.433-4). 3. Larry Rimer reviews the ongoing conflict between Republic of Macedonia and Greece from a judicial point of view. The article gives an excellent in-depth presentation of difficulties associated with adjudicating international cultural rights vis-a-vis peoples' or human rights issues. European courts may eventually arbitrate the issue that has antagonized the members of the European Union itself. 4. (The 'Greek position' regarding the so-called "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians). The politics of the modern era in the services of national historiography are combined with the reality of today's ever increasing demand for profit. The reader can gain an insight of the intricate interplay between politics, history, and modern-day nationalism. In Peter Green's chapter X, "The Macedonian Connection" in Classical Bearings-Interpreting Ancient History and Culture, one will find the scenes that usually develop behind the curtains, brought up to the forefront. The book was published by University of California Press, Ltd. First Paperback Printing 1998. Please see my commentaries in chapter 17. 5. See Salonica Terminus by Fred A. Reed, published 1996; Victor Roudometof's The Macedonian Question Colombia University Press, 2000. The most chauvinistic account can be found in Martis' Falsification of Macedonian History, and AP Daskalakis The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians 1965. 6. Personal names. The author listed below has a list of Macedonian names found on inscriptions. J. Gabbert (Wright State University) "The Language of Citizenship in Antigonid Macedonia" The Ancient History Bulletin 2.1 (1988) 10-11. [If we were to assume that some of the Macedonian names have Greek meanings and thereby must be considered Greek names, then, we must look elsewhere for comparable evidence in order to make a conclusive decision about it. Since Philip and Alexander have Greek etymology, we are willing to "give them" to the Greeks, after all "Philipos" lover of horses, and "Alexander" the protector of men, have Greek meanings. But, then again, we ask: what about the Persian names? Greeks have Greek etymology for all Persian names that we find in the literature. For example: Darius, the Persian king, means "worker" (erxies) Xerxes, another Persian king, means "warrior" (areios), Habrocomes, which means soft in Greek (habro) Harmarnithres, which means "chariot" in Greek (harma) Harpagus, which means "plunderer" in Greek (harpage) and so on.] Detailed elaboration on names and language one can find in Thomas Harrison's "Herodotus' Conception of Foreign Languages" HYSTOS vol 2, 1998. Macedonians did not worship the same Gods as the Greeks either. The fact that many Gods were found worshiped by both peoples can be attributed to the Greek desire to find Greek equivalent God with other people's deities. Pan, Poseidon, Asiris, Hera, Hestia, Themis, Dioscuri have no Greek origin and are not "Greek" Gods, but they all have a Greek equivalent. Besides, aren't all Greek Gods in fact Egyptian Gods? Didn't Herodotus state that? (Hdt.2. 50 (schedon de kai panton ta aunomata to theon ex Aiguptou eleluthe es ten Hellada). See also Hoddinott, The Thracians, 169-70. 7. An excellent work by Anastasia Karakasidou Fields of Wheat fields of Blood illuminates the deep-seated Greek distrust in people of 'Slavic' origin in Aegean Macedonia. It is quite interesting to note that Cambridge University Press reneged on publishing this work under the threat of Greek reaction/violence. The author's life was also threatened and many of the Greek intellectuals obediently lined in support behind the government's position. Please read also The Macedonians of Greece-Denying Ethnic Identity Published by Human Rights Watch 1999. Persuasive elaboration of Macedonian and Greek discourse can be obtained from the journal of Modern Greek Studies 14.2 (1996) 253-30 1, l John Hopkins University Press] in Victor Roudometof's article "Nationalism and Identity Politics in the Balkans: Greece and Macedonian Question" 8. In his book The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians Daskalakis covers all the pertinent "areas of sameness" currently in dispute between ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks like names, religion, language, origin and mythology (the 'Greek' position), but fails to even acknowledge the material culture of the ancient Macedonians. The material culture of the ancient Macedonians, in our opinion, represents the crux of the "otherness" that clearly separates these two ancient peoples. The so-called "Greek" position it seems, is held only by modern Greeks, writes Eugene Borza (1990: 91 n. 27), citing George Cawkwell's Philip of Macedon reference on p. 22. Proof the Ancient Macedonian language spoken by Ancient Macedonians, King Phillip II Of Macedon and Alexander "The Great Macedonian Of Macedon" in Ancient Macedonian times is on the Rosetta Stone and is the same language spoken as the Modern Macedonian language in today's Republic Of Macedonia, not the Gayreek Gypsy language of Gayreece (Hell Ass) and not the Bulgayrian Tartar language of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria. The Ancient Macedonian language of Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Macedonia and the Modern Macedonian language of todays Modern Macedonians in Republic Of Macedonia is pretty much the same and any Macedonian from Republic Of Macedonia can read the Macedonian writing on the Rosetta Stone. The Ancient Macedonian language of the Ancient Macedonians in Ancient Macedonia and the Modern Macedonian language of today's Macedonians in today's Republic Of Macedonia is a similar dialect to the Ancient Gayreek Gypsy and the Modern Gayreek Gypsy language but not the same language and was and is a separate language and is why we have some Gayreek Gypsy words like "Koukla" in our Modern Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia cause of some Greek influence in ancient times but the Ancient Macedonian language and Modern Macedonian language always is and always was separate to the Ancient Gayreek Gypsy language and the Modern Gayreek Gypsy language, proof below. "Ancient Macedonian was the language of the ancient Macedonians. It was spoken in the kingdom of Macedon during the 1st millennium BC and it belongs to the Indo- European language family. It gradually fell out of use during the 4th century". Ancient Macedonians, Phillip II Of Macedonia, and Alexander "The Great Macedonian Of Macedonia" were not Gayreek Gypsies because they were all known as "Barbarians" who were known separate to the Gayreek Gypsies and were not counted as Gayreek Gypsies but as "Barbarians" who conquered the Gayreek Gypsies and Ancient Gayreece (Hell Ass).The Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a separate language to the Bulgayrian Tartar language of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria, the Macedonians from Republic Of Macedonia gave the Bulgayrian Tartars from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria their alphabet to make their language. The Bulgayrian Tartars from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria speak a Russian/Ukrainian dialect mixed with the Macedonian, Serbian/Croatian (Yugoslav) and Russian/Ukrainian language while the Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a similar dialect to the Gayreek Gypsy language of Gayreece (Hell Ass) and a similar language to the Serbian/Croatian (Yugoslav) languages but not the same language but a similar language and dialect.And the Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a Indo-European language always spoken by the Macedonians from Macedonia. PHOENICIAN GAVE LETTERS TO ATHENIANS TROUGH MACEDONIAN KADMO FROM OHRID (KADMO MADE TEBA, SO MACEDNIAN MADE ANCIENT GREECE (YUNANISTANIAN)LAND) www.google.com/search?q=PHOENICIANS+LETTERS&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=1BU&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AgR7UPm3MofctAbTmYHQCA&ved=0CDMQsAQ&biw=1025&bih=480 PHOENICIAN , NOT ATHENIAN LETTERS. macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4808/45/ www.mpc.org.mk/english/mpc/script.asp rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/en/node/169 rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/ touch.dailymotion.com/video/xxm6of_stone-of-rosetta-written-in-macedonian-language_news
www.macedonianhistory.ca/html/rosetta/rosetta.html www.macedonianhistory.ca/PDF/rosetta.pdf www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5268 documents-mk.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/alexander-great-philip-freeman.html?m=1 www.macedonianhistory.ca/PDF/rosetta.pdf rosetta-stone.feit.ukim.edu.mk/en/node/75 "Archaeology has revealed that the Macedonians never participated in the material culture of the so-called "Greex" world since the Late Bronze Age. "Greex" immigrants and goods were welcomed, but Macedonians remained a distinct nation, speaking a language unintelligible to the so-called "Greex"." ("Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire" by Kenneth W. Harl, p.11) www.amazon.com/Alexander-Great-Macedonian-Empire-Courses/dp/B006VOWHE6 1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages. 2. Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian conquest, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria. 3. Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Philip II's son took the Macedonian armies even further and conquered the Persian Empire, making Macedonia the largest and most powerful nation in the world for centuries to come. In his army next to the Macedonians, he utilized also troops from the Balkan nations that his father Philip II conquered - Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The Greeks in the Macedonian army however were commanded by Macedonians, their contribution in the conquest was insignificant and miniscule, and modern historiography calls them nothing but Macedonian "hostages" who would ensure a good behavior of their friends and families back in Greece (Peter Green, Urlich Wilcken, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, A.B. Bosworth). Aware that the Greeks despised the Macedonians, Alexander left massive Macedonian occupation troops in their country before heading for the conquest of Persia, although he knew that he would need as many as possible Macedonians for the dangerous campaign ahead. He however rid himself of the Greeks in his army the first chance he got, after burning the Persian capital Persepolis, and learning that the last Greek state Sparta was defeated by the Macedonian troops he left to watch rebellious Greece. 4. Despite all, the Greeks never stopped fighting the Macedonians. While Alexander was conquering Persia with his 25-30,000 Macedonians, more then 50,000 Greeks actually fought on the side of the Persians against the Macedonians (Curtius). The Macedonians slaughtered 18,000 of them in the first battle and sent 2,000 to forced labor in Macedonia (Arrian). After Alexander died the Macedonian general Pithon massacred 23,000 more in a single battle when the Greeks revolted in Bactria (Diodorus). In Greece, when the news of Alexander the Great's death became known, the Greeks united once again and threw out the Macedonians out of their country in the Lamian War (Diodorus). But the Macedonian army returned with massive reinforcements, defeated the Greeks both on land and sea, and re-occupied Greece, putting a bloody end of the Lamian War (Diodorus). 5. The Greeks nevertheless continued raising rebellion after rebellion against the Macedonians to free Greece from the foreign occupation. All successors of Alexander the Great fought them, and the Macedonian king Antigonus II Gonatas fought three Greek uprising who unified against the "barbarous Macedonians" (Diodorus, Plutarch,Justin). Finally in 197 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V was defeated by the joint force of Romans and Greeks, and Macedonia lost Greece after almost 150 years of occupation. When the Romans proclaimed that Greece is free, such an enormous burst of enthusiasm exploded among the Greeks that the Roman general who made the announcement was almost killed by the mass of people that flocked to shake his hand and congratulate him for diving the Macedonians out (Livy, Polybius). 6. After the defeat of the Macedonian king Perseus in 168 BC, and the end of the Macedonian rebellion in 148 BC, Macedonia, Greece, and Carthage became part of the Roman Empire. In 395 AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Greece became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire. 7. Slavs invaded the whole of Balkans in the 6th century, including Macedonia and the whole of Greece, all the way down to the Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians clearly mentioned that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians" and to subdue the independent Slavic tribes in the Peloponnesus in Greece, the Byzantine emperors who were Macedonians, belonging to the Macedonian Dynasty, had to sent "Macedonians and Thracians" against them. Thus the Macedonians and Slavs have been living side by side ever since the 6th century. Over period of centuries these Slavic people mixed into the Macedonians in Macedonia, and with the Greeks in Greece, and laid the foundations for the modern Macedonian and Greek nations. Historical records continue to mention the Macedonians until the fall of the Byzantine Empire. It must be stressed that there is NO record of invasion of Greeks into Macedonia. 8. in 1821 just before Greece was established as a country, its people did not speak Greek. In 1829 when Greece became a state, for the first time, it was a small country covering the region of Morea, modern day Peloponnesus (Greece proper). The majority of people living in Morea at the time spoke Albanian, Turkish, Vlach and Slav. Athens itself, the cradle of the ancient civilization, was nothing more than an Albanian village.9. Independent European and Balkan statistics (except exaggerated Greek sources) from the late 19th and early 20th century show that the Greeks were a small minority of only 10%, living in the most southern parts of Macedonia, bordering Greece. 10. In 1913 Greece and her allies Serbia and Bulgaria, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Greece occupied the largest part, 51% of the whole territory, called Aegean Macedonia. 11. Even Greeks sources, including the king of Greece himself in 1912, confirm that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overwhelming majority of the population were NOT Greeks, confirming the fact that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times (Nikolaides, Spiros Melas Epopee). 12. But since 1913 Greece begun its assimilatory policies against the Macedonians, changing their family names to Greek names, renaming the cities, rivers, and mountains with Greek names, and forbidding the speaking of the Macedonian language. 13. In the mid 1920's Greeks from Asia Minor begun migrating into Aegean Macedonia for a first time ever, and soon the Macedonians found themselves among strangers in their native land, who most vigorously attacked everything that represents the Macedonian nationality and consciousness. In the 1930's the Macedonians were forced to drink castor oil for speaking Macedonian and had to pay financial penalty for every spoken word of Macedonian. 14. In 1991 the Republic of Macedonia, located north of Aegean Macedonia in Greece, became an independent country. The Republic of Macedonia was the part of Macedonia that Serbia occupied with the partition of 1913. In 1945 the Macedonians of the Republic drove away the fascist Albanian, Bulgarian, and German occupation forces and voted to join new federal Yugoslavia because it respected the Macedonian nationality. With the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the early 1990-1, the Macedonians voted independence in a referendum. 15. Afraid that now one part of Macedonia is independent, the Greeks launched a world-wide propaganda against the Macedonians claiming that "Macedonia has been Greek for 4000 years" (sometimes they say 3000 years, 2500, etc. It varies.). Ironically, despite the fact that the ancient Macedonians committed a real genocide against the ancient Greeks, the ancestors of today's Greeks, despite the fact the Macedonians in Greece are oppressed by them, and despite the fact that the Greeks moved in Aegean Macedonia as majority only 75 years ago. 16. While the Greeks only recently begun to launch the amazing claim that they are descendents of the ancient Macedonians (the people who murdered their own ancestors), it should be stressed that at least since the 18th century (DeTott) and including the 19th and 20th century, there are written records which show that the Macedonians claimed direct descendent from the ancient Macedonians in their struggle to free Macedonia from the Turks. That is centuries before Greece took Aegean Macedonia with its army and launched its propaganda. 17. Today, as we enter the 21st century, the Macedonians of Greece continue to be harassed and discriminated by the Greek government, 87 years since Greece took over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonian language is still not recognized, the Macedonian nationality is still denied, and the Macedonians are still forced to have Greek family names, because having a Macedonian name Greece considers illegal. Human Rights Watch (Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece), Amnesty International, and the European Community have the Greek oppression of the Macedonians well documented, found Greece guilty, and demanded that it recognize the Macedonian language and nation and end its oppression. Despite of it, the Macedonians continue to exist in Greece as majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia and as minority in the southern half, and peacefully continue to demand their human rights. Will Greece ever became a democracy? 18. The Greeks and the Macedonians also greatly defer in physical appearance. The Greeks have typically darker tan then the Macedonians who are fair skinned. Historian Arthur Waigell have stated that the same difference in complexion existed between the ancient Greeks and Macedonians, and the ancient Greek historian Plutarch wrote that Alexander the Great had a fair complexion, criticizing a certain Greek sculptor who had given him a darker tan. The fact that both the Greeks and Macedonians have kept their ancient names is proof that both have been aware of, and preserved their lineage since most ancient times. And finally the latest scientific genetic research conducted by the University in Madrid, Spain concluded that the Macedonians are direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians, while the Greeks are unrelated to European origins and to the "older" Mediterranean substratum to which Macedonians belong to.19.Greek Denial of Macedonian NameThe most important thing to remember about the "Macedonian conflict" is that the Greek position has changed dramatically over the past decade. Official Greek government policy was that Macedonia did not exist. When Greece took over Aegean Macedonia in 1913, they killed, tortured and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Macedonians. They changed the names of people, villages, and landmarks from Macedonian to Greek in their attempts to eradicate the Macedonian name. After the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 and the partition of Macedonia: "Greece acquired the largest Macedonian territory, Aegean Macedonia. Even though this territorial acquisition did not necessarily satisfy its maximal pretensions in Macedonia, officially Athens claimed, as did Belgrade, that Macedonian and the Macedonian problem had ceased to exist. For the ruling elite in Greece, Aegean Macedonia became simply northern Greece and its Slavic-speaking Macedonians were proclaimed Greeks or, at best, 'slavophone' Greeks." Once the new rulers had consolidated their control over the respective parts of Macedonia, they initiated policies which aimed to destroy all signs of Macedonian nationalism, patriotism or particularism. This was to be accomplished through forced deportations and so-called voluntary exchanges of populations, colonization, social and economic discrimination, and forced denationalization and assimilation through the total control of the education systems and of cultural and intellectual life as a whole. These policies were pursued systematically and with great determination by Greece. "Macedonia was split apart in 1912 when the Bulgarians, the Greeks and the Serbs united to push the Turks out of the Balkans. Succeeding in that, they split Macedonia between them. Aegean Macedonia was taken by Greece by conquest, never by any act of self-determination. Both Serbia and Greece tried to obliterate the name of Macedonia, and the use of the Macedonian language in the conquered territories. The northern portion was called South Serbia, the southern portion was called Northern Greece. For many years the Greeks avoided the use of the name Macedonia to describe its northern province." Only in the last three years have the Greeks decided to reclaim the name they abandoned and actually tried to suppress for so many years. "Funnily enough, northern Greece was for so many years called just that, 'Northern Greece', and it had its own minister,the name Macedonia was considered greek since the times of alexander the great." In the 1980's when it became evident that Yugoslavia was going to disintegrate and a part of Macedonia would become independent, Greece was afraid that they would lose Aegean Macedonia to a reunified Macedonian state. Therefore, propaganda that "Macedonia is 4000 years of Greek history" began. The very country that tried to destroy the Macedonian name now claims that Macedonia is Greek.This is a non-issue. Before the Greek propaganda changed, you could not say the "M" word to a Greek. They vehemently denied the existence of such a land, people, or language. Now they claim that the land is Greek, but there are still no ethnic Macedonian people or language, that it is simply "Slavic" or "Bulgarian". In Greece, the government tried to eliminate any trace of Macedonia. Since the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, however, a concerted programme was implemented in order to prove the "Greekness of Macedonia". Institutions such as the "University of Macedonia" opened in Solun (Greek name-Thessaloniki), the "Museum of Macedonia" and a news agency called the "Macedonian Press Agency". "In August 1988 Greece renamed "Northern Greece" as "Macedonia". Only since this renaming have Greek claims to Macedonian heritage gained widespread publicity." "Greece did not refer to any part of its current territory as Macedonia until 1988, when Papandreou's government officially adopted the name Macedonia to replace that of Northern Greece. This point added weight to the notion that the dispute with Macedonia was a manufactured one. Here is a quote from Traianos Hadjidimitriou, Greek journalist and former member of the Greek parliament. "Today, Macedonia is an accomplished fact. For 50 years, we Greeks avoided raising the issue, mostly under pressure from the United States. Today, ladies and gentlemen, we are paying for our own indifference and our lack of foresight."7As Mr. Hadjidimitriou stated, Greeks avoided "raising the issue" of Macedonia. If it was such an integral part of Greek history, as they now claim, why didn't they always claim it to be Greek? Educated Greeks will admit to this, although they give excuses, because there is no way around the fact that they used to deny the very existence of Macedonia.20.Greek Denial of Macedonian MinorityWhen the Republic of Macedonia was seeking international recognition of its independence in 1991, the Greek Council of Ministers defined its terms of recognition of this new state. "It should not use the name 'Macedonia' which has a purely geographic and not an ethnic meaning. It should recognize that it has no territorial claims on our country. It should recognize that, in Greece, there is no 'Macedonian' minority" The Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity,even worse it denies the existence of a Macedonian minority within its borders and refuses to grant these people their basic human rights. The United Nations and other international organizations recognizes each nation's right to self-determination. The Macedonians throughout the Balkans, regardless of what borders they find themselves in, have their own language, history, culture, and traditions. Greece and Bulgaria are the only two countries to continue to deny them this right. "they have carefully fostered this delusion, as if to give the impression both to their own people and to the world that there that there was no Slav minority in Greece at all; whereas, if a foreigner who did not know Greece were to visit the Florina (Lerin) region and from his idea of the country as a whole, he would conclude that it was the Greeks who were the minority. It is predominantly a Slav region not a Greek one. The language of the home, and usually also of the fields, the village street, and the market, is Macedonian, a Macedonian language." "Greek is regarded as almost a foreign language and the Greeks are distrusted as something alien, even if not, in the full sense of the word, as foreigners. This obvious fact, almost too obvious to be stated, that the region is Slav by nature and not Greek cannot be overemphasized." we note Greeks claims that Northern Greece or Aegean Macedonia is more than 98.5% ethnically pure. The purity is held to be Greek. However, the statement is not accepted by reputable opinion outside of Greece. For instance, the 1987 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica indicated that there were still 180,000 Macedonian speakers in this area, indicating a much greater percentage than 1.5%. If Macedonian activists from these areas are correct, there may be as many as 1,000,000 people from Macedonian-speaking backgrounds in Aegean Macedonia." "For most of the past eighty years, the Greek government has consistently denied the existence of both a Macedonian nation and a Macedonian minority in northern Greece and has adopted a policy of forced assimilation toward the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Aegean Macedonia." "The United Nations, the United States State Department, Amnesty International, and various chapters of Helsinki Watch throughout the world disagree with the Greeks, in particular, about the presence of Macedonians (and other minorities) in Greece and have pressured them in recent times to change their behaviour toward their Macedonian-speaking minority. Greece is the only Southeast European country that does not recognize the presence of any national minorities in its territory. Turks are recognized as a mere ?religious, Muslim? minority (which nevertheless is educated in Turkish), while Macedonians are not considered even a linguistic minority. The words ?Turkish? and ?Macedonian? have repeatedly led to the prosecution of their users, with courts handing down prison sentences or banning minority associations." "Where as, concerning the Muslims, the controversy relates to the character and the identity of the minority, when dealing with the Macedonians, there is a near unanimity in denying the very existence of any such minority, and supporting the persecution if not the prosecution of such claims."The Macedonian minority continued to face various forms of harassment and discrimination in 1996. These included restrictions on freddom of cultural expression, violations of the freedom of association, harassment of its political party, Rainbow, denial of entry to Greece by ethnic Macedonians and former Greek citizens living abraod, and citizenship issues.""Greek Helsinki Monitor and Minority Rights Group-Greece urged that the Greek state finally recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece; allow its members to form associations; and grant the Macedonian refugees the right to return to Greece and to visit it. They also gave their support to the EU's encouragement to establish 'inter-cultural' schools where languages of minority groups would be instructed." "Since the civil war, the official denial of a Macedonian minority in Greece has remained constant regardless of the government in power, whether democratic or the military dictatorship of 1967-74." The Macedonian minority remained unrecognized by the Greek government and consequently faced various forms of harassment and discrimination. Ethnic Macedonian associations and particularly the Rainbow political party, continued to face difficulties. Established in September 1995, Rainbow was attacked by local Greek extremists, including the mayor of Florina, and hindered from operating freely." "The official Greek position with regard to the ethnic composition of Greece is that there are no ethnic or national minorities in Greece at all." One of the worst examples of Greek discrimation against its Macedonian minority occurred in September, 1995. The Rainbow Party (the Macedonian minority party in Greece) hung up a sign in their office in Lerin displaying the words "Lerinski Komitet," (Lerin Committee) in their native Macedonian language as well as in Greek. Their office was subsequently burnt down by a mob of Greeks, including local officials, yet the Rainbow Party was charged under Article 192 of the Greek penal code for "inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other"! The following is a quote from the Greek Helsinki Monitor after these events took place: "The co-operating organizations Greek Helsinki Monitor and Minority Rights Group - Greece condemn the violence against, the prosecutions of, and the setting on fire of the offices of the ?Rainbow? minority party, a party which expresses the Greek citizens belonging to the ?Macedonian national minority? (as it is recognized internationally but, unfortunately, not yet in Greece). Given the fact that the local authorities have played a leading role in these events, the conclusion is easily drawn that Greece, on the one hand, does not respect its international obligations on issues of freedom of expression and minority rights and, on the other hand, proves that the Macedonian ethnic minority is significant in magnitude (and not ?a handful of agents? as most politicians and journalists usually claim) and, for this reason, it wants to suppress its political expression today as it had banned its cultural expression in the past (prohibition to establish a Shelter for Macedonian Culture, a case which is pending in the European Court for Human Rights [on 10 July 1998, Greece was convicted by that Court, for violation of the right to freedom of association]." For yet another example of the existence of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece and Bulgaria, please have a look at the CIA Ethnic Map of the Balkans. The spokesperson of the Greek Helsinki Monitor, Panayote Elias Dimitras, is actually an ethnic Greek, and is working hard for the achievement of human rights for the ethnic Macedonians. He faces numerous threats by fellow Greeks for his stance on the ethnic Macedonian minority. Unlike other Greeks who vehemently deny any human rights abuses, Mr. Dimitras is dedicated in his attempts to achieve equality for all in Greece. Some information can be viewed at the website of the Greek Helsinki Monitor. The following quotes are from various Greek newspapers in reaction to the U.S. State Department's 1995 human rights report on Greece: "The despicable report of the State Department on the oppressed minorities in Greece..." - Eleftheros Typos, 8/3/96 p.4 "...human rights which are allegedly oppressed in Greece" - Ta Nea, 19/3/96 p.6 "Anti-Greek hysteria against our country via the report on human rights" - Apogevmatini, 10/3/96 p.10 "The State Department sees minorities-ghosts" - Apogevmatini, 7/3/96 p.7 "They maintain the matter of a 'Macedonian' minority in Greece" - Ethnos, 7/3/96 p.10 "A concurrence of lies" - Apogevmatini, 10/3/96 p.10 "Greece, say the agents of Washington, denies the existence of Slav-Macedonians in the country...they saw Turks...they saw Arvanites and Vlachs" - Eleftheros Typos, 8/3/96 p.4 According to PASOK MP St.Papathemelis, the report is "offensive, inadmissable and all too clear fictitious, as far as Greece is concerned...The gentlemen who prepared the report must understand that there are neither a Turkish nor 'a Macedonian' minority and decide to honor the international conventions the USA have signed" - Apogevmatini, 8/3/96 p.621.Greek Myth of Ethnic Purity"The editor of The Sunday Telegraph argues that Greece has been ruthless in erasing traces of ethnic diversity, and suggests that the desperation of its actions, including the Greek claim to a monopoly of the classical past (in which all peoples of European origins have a share) can be explained by the fact that the Greeks today are a mixture of macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies."The official Greek government position is that there are no ethnic minorities in Greece, only the religious "Muslim minority" in Thrace. (recognized by the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923) Greece, however, refuses to allow this minority to call itself by its ethnic and national name, Turkish. Similarly, Greece denies the existence of the Macedonian, Albanian, Vlach, Pomak, and Arvanite communities (among many others) and refuses to grant them human rights. "More specifically, towards minorities, Greece's official attitude can be simply summarized in one sentence:" In Greece there is only one minority recognized by international treaty, it is a religious minority, the Muslims of Thrace, it is blossoming and enjoying its full rights, and makes up some 1.5% of the total population." 23The Greek government claims that in the entire country, there is only one minority, and that is a religious one. The human rights record of Greece towards all of its minorities, including the Turkish one, is horrendous, despite official Greek government claims. The following is a quote from "The World Almanac", under the heading, "Greece". "Ethnic groups: Greeks 98.5%; Languages: Greek; Religions: Greek Orthodox 97% (official)." How can one country be so homogenous? No other country in the world claims to have no ethnic minorities within its borders. It reflects the racist and intolerant attitude of the Greek government and the Greek population as a whole. "Modern Greek identity is based on an unshakable conviction that the Greek State is ethnically homogenous. This belief...has entailed repeated and official denial of the existence of minorities which are not of 'pure' Hellenic origin. The obsession with Greek racial identity involves the distortion of the history of the thousands of years when there was no such thing as a Greek nation state." "The following national, ethnolinguistic, religious, social and immigrant minority communities in Greece are monitored: Macedonians, Turks, Roma, Pomaks, Vlachs, Arvanites, Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, New Relgious Movements and Immigrants. The composition of the minority population is Roma 3.3%, Arvanites 2%, Macedonians 2%, Vlachs 2%, Turks 0.5% and Pomaks 0.3%. (Mostly illegal) immigrants make up some 5-6%. The religious minorities make up 1%. The members of minority groups - ethnic and relgious - and the immigrants have all been subjected to various forms of discrimination." "What is the word for this obsessive Greek pseudo-relationship with their country's past (they even have a magazine, Ellenismos, devoted to the subject)? It is not quite pretentiousness. There is too much passion for that. No, the Greeks, the ancient ones, had a word for the modern Greek condition: paranoia. We must accept that Mr. Andreas Papandreou (Greek prime minister at the time) and the current EC presidency are the sole legitimate heirs of Pericles, Demosthenes and Aristide the Just. The world must nod dumbly at the proposition that in the veins of the modern Greek...there courses the blood of Achilles. And their paranoid nationalism is heightened by the tenuousness of that claim." "In retrospect it is clear to me that my 12 years of Greek schooling, mainly in the 1970's, conspired to instill in me precisely one attitude: an almost unshakable belief in the purity and unity of the Greek people, language and culture...Belief in the continuity of Greece against all odds was enabled also by the method of withholding information and sealing off interpretive paths. We had, as children, neither the capacity nor the inclination to explore disunities and 'impurities'" "If Metropolitan Greece (Hellada) had lost the glory of the ancient Hellenic culture and become a land which, from the economic and social standpoint, had declined, with only the marble tablets left to remind us of an ancient culture, then how can we talk of a medieval Greek state and claim that the Byzantine state was the Greek nation?... The name Hellene became a synonym for an evil person, an anti-Christian, and was despised, which is why the name Graeco was accepted, though it also was considered as being something humble... It was only after 1054, when the Schism between Catholic and Orthodox took place in the Church, that the term Graecos acquired a religious meaning and was used to signify something which was not Roman... ("His mother was a Christian, his father was a Hellene" - Cypriot proverb)... Up to the 14th century the terms Hellene and Hellenic were not to be encountered in the state language. These names came into use later on... And since they lived in the same land as the ancient Hellenes, and Hellenic history was full of Hellenic feats, to their eyes the ancient Hellenes seemed to have been a magnificent people possessed of great capabilities, including a great trading ability ... even the Macedonian campaign of Alexander the Great and his great victories were considered as achievements of the Hellenes." "Viewed in the light of the general situation in Europe, Greece's present foreign policy has shown that the country's modern ideological armour is still very much the product of a nationalist upbringing, the roots of which go back to somewhere around the beginning of the nineteenth century. But the nation will never find its way in the European Union carrying this sort of ideological baggage. One of the cornerstones of this ideology is the unrealistic theory that the modem Greeks, expressing as they do the enduring nature of the Greek language, are the biological descendants of the ancient Greeks. It was concocted in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to serve as an ideological arsenal in the efforts to create a modern Greek nation in view of the impending collapse of the feudal, theocratic Ottoman Empire." "A large segment of modern Greek society, which has never really embarked upon the process of ideological modernisation, oscillates desperately between modernism and Greek Orthodox fundamentalism, displaying an inherent inability to make any sort of ideological distinction between the terms 'race', nationality', and 'cultural or ethnic identity'. Apart from the fact that even well-respected journalists are engaged in daily attempts to convince the younger generation that we are directly descended from 'our ancient forebears', views that go against the theory of 'one race, one religion, one nation' are regarded as nationally reprehensible. It is on this theory that most Greeks base their belief that there are no minorities in our country, apart from the 'Greek Moslems' of Western Thrace. Greek citizens who have publicly proclaimed that they do not feel like Greeks but like ethnic Macedonians or ethnic Turks have been pursued and convicted by Greek justice, which just goes to show that modem Greek society not only fails to show the necessary respect for what is different, but cannot even tolerate it. And, being in the grip of a virulent Hellenocentric egomania, this same society, while denying Greek citizens the right to any ethnic identity other than Greek, constantly exhorts Greeks living in other countries to preserve their Greek ethnic identity.Personally, I couldn't care less what race the citizens of modern Greece belong to; the only purpose of this book is to show, and substantiate with written documentation, how rotten and historically untenable obsessive nationalism is, in the hope of infusing as many young people as possible with respect for the right to self-determination of every Greek citizen and every ethnic group that calls itself a minority, as long as the country's laws and territorial integrity are respected." The following is a European Union-sponsored survey published in "Eurobarometer" in June 1993 in which 1,200 Greeks participated. It further illustrates the racist attitudes of Greek society." only 21% of Greeks considered tolerance as one of the qualities parents should try to encourage in their children (vs. 42-62% in the other countries and even 29% in former East Germany). Greeks also had the highest percentage of intolerance towards people with different nationality, race or religion (an average 28% vs. 6%-27% for the other peoples). More specifically:" 90% of Greeks believe that "foreigners in our country take our jobs away" and 84% believe that "many of the foreigners who live in our country constitute a public hazard" 89% of Greeks have an aversion to Turks 76% of Greeks have an aversion to Albanians 62% of Greeks have an aversion to Western Thrace Turks and 52% want them "all to go back to Turkey" 57% of Greeks have an aversion to Jews 55% of Greeks have an aversion to Gypsies and 48% believe that "even if their living conditions improve, the Gypsies will go on being dirty" 38% of Greeks have an aversion to Slavs "(Survey by Opinion (1,200 interviews, 20/1-20/2/93), for the Lambrakis Research Foundation: prepared by a team of academics under C. Tsoukalas and El. Nikolakopoulos and financed by the European Union; the survey was 'buried' by its sponsors and revealed in the Greek press by GHM on International Human Rights day, 10/12/95)."22. Two things to remember:It is ironic that Greeks now "love Macedonia" when they tried to eradicate its very existence. If Macedonia has always been Greek, why did the Greek government deny its existence until the 1980s? cause macedonias not greek23.a few years ago, macedonian uni students were going to MACEDONIA to learn more about MACEDONIA, when they got to macedonia, there were greeks that were going to teach them more about macedonia, but when they were in macedonia, the greek teachers were telling the uni students they were in greece, when they clearly were in MACEDONIA! so now, the stupid greeks say MACEDONIA IS GREECE when it isent!24.the macedonian community in australia has gravely disturbed by the recently offensive propaganda of the atheniian (greek) government, namely that greece is the legitimate copyright holder to the name "macedonia", and the former souther yugoslav republic of macedonia that has this title. this article is not an assult on the greek community in general but the revelation of the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth. it's aim is to cleanse the reputation of the peacful macedonian nation that wasruthlessly disorted in the weekend newspapers, calling all australian greeks to rally and protest against the peacefully acquired independence of a tragic nation upon which the sun of liberety has not shone in more than 2000 years. nhad the misguided greek community known the truth of their history, they would have never have infected with the elements of a canerouse European epidemic known as nationalism, thereby transforming "the lucky country" into another arena for foreign dispute. The athenian government is speending countless millions od dollars to alter encyclopedias and history books worldwide, andliterary crusade to reverse and omit undeniable and uncontestable facts that macedonia is an autochthonous nation with an autocephalous religion, distinctive people, language, culture and history. while macedonis was the first territorial state in Europe with a consolidated administrative, political and military apparatus, the achaeans (greeks) were not a unified an uniform nation but a handful of city-states constantly warring with one another. the trojan war in homer's "iliad" excluded macedonia for her non-achaean character, but involved achaean cities only, which did not comprise a greek nation untill 1829 (2500 years later). the macedonains (tall and fair) was in Europe befor the beginning time itself, and were reffered to by the achaeans (short and dark) as "endopi", which means "old settlers" inferring that etymologically macedonia was a name born by the macedonians and for the macedonians befor the achaeans had even arrived in Europe. Thucydides, whose writings are regarded as the mark of the beginning of all true history labels macedonia a barberic country and the macedonsas barbarians. Even demonthenesan athenian and statesmanwas the leader of the ani-macedonian party that was waged war several times against Alexander the great (alexander makedonski). Regarded nowadays as one of the most important greek historians, he went so far as to call philip of macedon"a barbarian without a any relation but a cursed wretched from macedonia, where one cannot even buy a decent slave", nowadays, greek scholars are only to happy to exproriate all the glory of the macedonian history, especially the campaigns of alexander the great. all his macedonian origin, a fever that presecuted all macedonian philosophers after alexener's death. modern days greece seems to have forgotten the surge of nationalism in the 3rd century b.c. led by the achaean anti-macedonian allience, once again led by the acaean anti-macedonian alliance, once again certifying her distinctiveness from macedonia by submitting to rome. after macedonia falls under the roman yoke she becomes a roman province distinct from the achaean cities. During the byzantine Era, when the romaioi (greeks as they were reffered to then) held the monopoly of eastern culture, the macedonian and all other nationswere subdued to massive denationalisation and assimilation, a process that entails the denial of the most fundamental human rights, generally national and cultarul. in laymans' terms, no person may speak speak his own language (not even privately), worship his own religion, preserve his own religion, preserve his own transitions, learn the truth of history ;but must absorb the romaioi or face the consequences (capital punishmen). To an australian this may seem absurd, but is not unusual when an athanian government has terretorial aspirations towards her neighbours. as you are reading this article, these policies towards the macedonians an others are incessantly continueing in northern greece. athens is striving to extend these policies beyond her borders by abusing her rigt of veto in the E.C. committee to deny the recognition of the republic of macedonia. the tentacles of these policies have even reached australia, causing high-profile politicians to side with the massive community in the hope of gaining population.25. Alexander III the Great, the King of Macedonia and conqueror of the Persian Empire is considered one of the greatest military geniuses of all times. He was inspiration for later conquerors such as Hannibal the Carthaginian, the Romans Pompey and Caesar, and Napoleon. Alexander was born in 356 BC in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedonia. He was son of Philip II, King of Macedonia, and Olympias, the princess of neighboring Epirus. He spent his childhood watching his father transforming Macedonia into a great military power, winning victory after victory on the battlefields throughout the Balkans. In 340, when Philip assembled a large Macedonian army and invaded Thrace, he left his 16 years old son with the power to rule Macedonia.Two years later in 338 BC, Philip gave his son a commanding post among the senior generals as the Macedonian army invaded Greece. At the Battle of Chaeronea the Greeks were defeated and Alexander displayed his bravery by destroying the elite Greek force.26. The most important thing to remember about the "Macedonian conflict" is that the Greek position has changed dramatically over the past decade. Official Greek government policy was that Macedonia did not exist. When Greece took over Aegean Macedonia in 1913, they killed, tortured and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Macedonians. They changed the names of people, villages, and landmarks from Macedonian to Greek in their attempts to eradicate the Macedonian name. In the 1980's when it became evident that Yugoslavia was going to disintegrate and a part of Macedonia would become independent, Greece was afraid that they would lose Aegean Macedonia to a reunified Macedonian state. Therefore, propaganda that "Macedonia is 4000 years of Greek history" began. The very country that tried to destroy the Macedonian name now claims that Macedonia is Greek. Before the Greek propaganda changed, you could not say the "M" word to a Greek. They vehemently denied the existence of such a land, people, or language. Now they claim that the land is Greek, and that there are still no ethnic Macedonian people or language. In Greece, the government tried to eliminate any trace of Macedonia. Since the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, however, a concerted programme was implemented in order to prove the "Greekness of Macedonia". Institutions such as the "University of Macedonia" opened in Solun the "Museum of Macedonia" and a news agency called the "Macedonian Press Agency. In August 1988 Greece renamed "Northern Greece" as "Macedonia". Only since this renaming have Greek claims to Macedonian heritage. As Mr. Hadjidimitriou stated, Greeks avoided "raising the issue" of Macedonia. If it was such an integral part of Greek history, as they now claim, why didn't they always claim it to be Greek? Educated Greeks will admit to this, although they give excuses, because there is no way around the fact that they used to deny the very existence of Macedonia. The Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity,even worse it denies the existence of a Macedonian minority within its borders and refuses to grant these people their basic human rights. The United Nations and other international organizations recognizes each nation's right to self-determination. The Macedonians throughout the Balkans, regardless of what borders they find themselves in, have their own language, history, culture, and traditions. Greece and Bulgaria are the only two countries to continue to deny them this right. Aegean Macedonia came under Greek occupation in 1913 following the Balkan Wars and partition of Macedonia. The Greek government immediately began a terrorist campaign against the Macedonian people, resulting in hundreds of thousands killed, tortured, or expelled. Many Greeks, however, refuse to admit that a sizeable ethnic Macedonian minority exists in Greece. After the Greeks occupied Aegean Macedonia, they closed the Slavic-language schools and churches and expelled the priests. The Macedonian language and name were forbidden, and the Macedonians were referred to as Bulgarians, Serbians or natives. By a law promulgated on November 21, 1926, all place-names were Hellenized; that is the names of cities, villages, rivers and mountains were discarded and Greek names put in their place. At the same time the Macedonians were forced to change their first names and surnames; every Macedonian surname had to end in 'os', 'es', or 'poulos.' Use of the Macedonian language meant harsh reprisals, including a "language tax" it was forbidden to speak our language-for every Macedonian word, you would be fined 30 to 40 drachmas (40 cents U.S.).Bulgarian and Greek propagandists insist that Macedonian is not a language, that it is only a western Bulgarian dialect, despite the fact that Macedonian is an internationally recognized language and taught at several prestigious universities throughout the world. Despite Greece's objections, over 40 countries recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, including Australia, Canada, United States, Great Britain, Russia, China, Bulgaria, Turkey, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro), Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Lithuania, Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, the Phillipines, among many others. Greece fears that if Macedonia is recognized, that they would have to acknowledge the large ethnic Macedonian minority within its borders. They refuse to grant any minorities human rights, and do not want to be forced into it by the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia is a treasury of cultural wealth. The Slavonic alphabet was born in Macedonia, where the Macedonian educators Cyril and Methody, and Clement and Naum played an important part in the spread of Christianity. Macedonian builders and mosaic masters shone like a bright star in the dark period of European culture prior to the Renaissance. In its attempts to eradicate the Macedonian name Greece followed a policy of assimilating the Macedonian minority and Hellenizing the Macedonian region in northern Greece. The government changed place names and personal names from Macedonian to Greek, ordered religious services to be performed in Greek, and altered religious icons.27. If Macedonia Was a state in Greece then how come we were known as a country not a state i Greece u know why? Because Macedonia NEVER HAS & NEVER WILL be Greek!28. as i always say thats all u cunts can say " macedonia is greek " and have no clue on politics and history if u new politics u will know that macedonian name will not change , if you think it will then you's are wrong , as of 2008 macedonia will be going in nato under constitutional name and greece cant do shit , 120 UN member countries already recognize us under constitutional name , nato even told greece they cnt stop macedonia from going in NATO , as for history you's are worse claiming everything , how can alexander be greek when you's fought against him , and if macedonia was always greek then why did u change names of cities in Aegean Macedonia if it was always greek29. greece will never accept Macedonia why? think about it logicaly then say why..why the huge propaganda? theres a reason a very big reason behind this that we can not tell the government is hiding something and the politcs also. why did so many aegean Macedonians were killed and chased by greeks if they wer already greeks IT JUST DOESENT MAKE SENSE WHEN GREEKS SAY MACEDONIA IS GREEK U KNOW WHY? CAUSE ITS A LOAD OF BULLSHIT! THATS WHY!30. the greeks say macedonia was a city in greece- and apppeard as a country in in 1944-(BULLSIT THAT HAPPEND!)MACEDONIA WAS IN THE BIBLE! AND THE FIRST BAPTISM WAS MADE IN MACEDONIA(THATS WHEN MACEDONIA MADE A RELIGON CALLED MACEDONIAN ORTHADOX! SO THEN THE GREEKS GOT JELOUS AND MADE THE GREEK ORTHADOX, TO STAY AS A BIG COUNTRY! WHAT HAPPEND IN GREECE IN HE BIBLE, NOTHING! SO WHAT DOES THEIR RELIGON MEAN! HERE ARE 2 POINTS! first do they even know what a history book is? SECOND THERE PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS ARE FULL OF SHIT! ALEXSANDAR THE GREAT WAS MACEDONIAN (IF YOU CAN TELL BY HIS LAST NAME!)31. For those who believe the Macedonians were Greek, here are some facts to remember;1. The so-called "ancient Greeks" or Peloponnesians, outside of their colonies at Chalcidice nd a few other places at the tip of southern Macedonia, had never set foot on Macedonian soil.Since no Macedonian or foreign archeologist has even been allowed to dig in Greek occupied Macedonia or examine any archeological findings unsupervised, we can't verify what other language Alexander the Great spoke.Greek archeologists cannot be trusted to factually report findings, especially those findings that don't agree with the Greek Government's "politically correct policies". 32. what do we have that greeks have invented NOTHING,you havent invented shit u panseys all you's do is spread propaganda claiming everything,first u claim Macedonia then u claim turkey,then u say alexander was greek,then u say jesus was greek but these propagandas are leading u no where because everyone knows the truth,see you's are eating yourselves now that where going in nato as of 2008,you's have no 1 on your side,120 UN member countries have recognized macedonia under constutional name so you wont be able to stop us from getting in Nato with the name as it should be Republic Of Macedonia you's try to VETO you's get fucked over, CAD told greece that they cant do shit!.
More proof Macedonians and Macedonia are not Bulgayrian Tartars and not part of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria. Macedonians are not Bulgars In the deliberately confused political landscape of the Central Balkans, historical truth, moral standards, ideological clarity, and political resoluteness are necessary for all if peace, progress and prosperity are truly sought after. The fabricated nationalistic falsehood, diffused in various Balkan countries by entrapped chauvinistic parties, associations and organizations, has far reaching consequences that the various propagandists cannot even imagine; this is the reason they stick to their historical falsehood that will finally be detrimental to them as well. Few have perceived so far the real end of the nationalisms incited in most of the Balkan states by the Anglo-French colonial establishments since the early 19th century; even fewer can see clearly the impending dangers due to the chauvinistic rekindling perpetrated again by the Anglo-French diplomats and advisors since 1991. One of the worst lies diffused among various Balkan peoples is the assumption that the Modern Macedonians are Bulgarians; the argument is mostly linguistic and has to do with the apparent vicinity between the Macedonian and the Bulgarian languages. It would be parallel to the hypothesis that the Portuguese are Spaniards, because Portuguese and Castillan Spanish have great similarities. Indeed, before 500 years the Galician language of NW Spain (Gallego) and Portuguese were one and the same Iberian language (named Gallego – portugues); they diverged in more recent eras. However, as no nationalistic feelings were involved in this case, not a single Spaniard ever denied the authenticity of the Portuguese nation and language. Unfortunately, the same did not happen in the case of the Macedonians. I am delighted to have gone through an excellent essay composed by two great Macedonian scholars and intellectuals, Aleksandar Donski and Risto Stefov, that focuses precisely on this subject; indeed, the Macedonians have nothing to do with the Bulgars, and even most Bulgarians are not Bulgars – to repeat here the subtitle of this excellent analysis. Before publishing here integrally the pertinent contribution that completely clarifies the issue, I will present a brief biographical sketch of the two intellectuals. Alexander Donski was born in 1960 in Štip, Republic of Macedonia; he is a Macedonian historian, writer and translator. He is known for his work about Macedonian history in which he argues for ethnic continuity between modern Slav Macedonians and the ancient population of Macedon, as well as for an ancient and fundamental ethnic distinction between Macedonians and Bulgarians ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Donski ). Risto Stefov, was born in 1953 in the village Oshchima, Lerin / Florina Region, in Macedonian Greece. As his family immigrated to Canada in 1966, Risto completed his secondary education in Canada (Westview Centennial Secondary School) and in 1978 got his Bachelor in Electrical Engineering from the University of Toronto. Risto was recruited by the Village Association Benefit Society Oshchima (formed in 1907) where he served for many years on the board of directors and was later voted President, a title which he holds to this day. In the early 1990’s, he joined the newly formed Lerin Region Macedonian Cultural Association of Ontario where he served on the board of directors for two terms as treasurer and just recently completed his second term as President. Macedonians are not Bulgars (Even most Bulgarians are not Bulgars) By Aleksandar Donski and Risto Stefov January 24, 2008 It is high time the truth be known that Bulgarians know very little about their own history. It is a well known fact that Bulgarian propaganda has influenced many Macedonians to believe that they are Bulgarian but the facts show differently. Let us begin by asking some questions like: "Who were the Bulgars of History?", "How do these historic Bulgars relate to the modern Bulgarians?" and "Could these Bulgars be the ancestors of the modern Macedonians?" Before answering the above questions we need to make a couple of points: (1) According to mainstream history to which most of the world subscribes today, the Slavs arrived in the Balkans around the 5th and 6th centuries AD while the Bulgars arrived in the Balkans about a century and a half later. (2) Also according to mainstream history, the Bulgars were Oriental people who had names like Kubrat, Omurtag, Telec, Toktu, Pagan, Cok, etc., and spoke an Asiatic language. A common argument Bulgarians make today is that Tsar Samoil’s kingdom was "Bulgarian" and that Macedonian historiographers are attempting to hide this from the world. Is this true? According to mainstream history Tsar Samoil ruled a vast region that encompassed today’s Bulgaria , Macedonia , Greece , Albania , Montenegro , Serbia , Bosnia and even Croatia . But if we are to believe the Bulgarians that Samoil’s kingdom was Bulgarian then we must also believe that there were no Macedonians, Greeks, Albanians, Montenegrins, Serbians, Bosnians or Croatians in Samoil’s kingdom and that all these people were actually "Bulgarians"! The truth is that Tsar Samoil’s kingdom was a multi-ethnic kingdom and the same can be said about his army. Clearly Macedonia was the center of Samoil’s kingdom where he had his capitals but he recruited his soldiers from the various ethnic groups living in his vast kingdom. So, the Bulgarian argument that Samoil’s kingdom was Bulgarian is clearly false. How then do we account for some Byzantine authors calling Samoil’s army ‘Bulgar’?" There are historic documents that show that Byzantine authors did use the word "Bulgars" to refer to Samoil’s soldiers. These however were not ethnic references. These were more like references to a certain "class" of people. [/b] When the "Bulgars" arrived in the Balkans around the 7th century AD, their behaviour seemed unusual and barbaric. They were described by some as wild and highly uncivilized barbaric people who ate raw meat and buried their prisoners alive. In the eyes of the more cultivated Byzantines, besides being barbaric, these "Bulgars" seemed "uneducated", "primitive" and "dirty". With time the word "Bulgar" too became associated with "uneducated", "primitive" and "dirty". Even today in modern Greek the word "bulgar" means "primitive". The French too define "Bulgar poetry" as the poetry of "common people". In some Macedonian dialects the verb "se izbugari" means "to have become rotten". Therefore it would appear that some Byzantine authors called Samoil’s soldiers "Bulgars" not because they were ethnic Bulgarians but because they looked poor, dirty and seemed uneducated and primitive like the real Bulgars. Assuming that during Tsar Samoil’s reign Macedonians were actually "Bulgars" as the modern Bulgarians would have us believe, then "Who were the historical Bulgars from whom they descended?" Mainstream history tells us that the first Bulgars arrived in the Balkans around the 7th century AD and established their first State in the northeastern part of present day Bulgaria in 681 AD. If we are to believe that, and we have no reason not to, then who lived in Macedonia before the arrival of the Bulgars? Those who subscribe to the "Slav migration theory" would say it was the Slavs who lived in Macedonia and had lived there for at least one and a half centuries before the arrival of the Bulgars. Those who believe that the Macedonians descended from the ancient Macedonians, would say Macedonians lived in Macedonia at least a thousand years before the arrival of the Bulgars. History also tells us that the "Bulgars" never settled in Macedonia. They may have looted and pillaged Macedonia but they never settled there. In fact when the Bulgars conducted campaigns in Macedonia they conducted them against the Macedonians. Byzantine author Leonnis Diakonis in his book "History" wrote: "In September, Simeon the Bulgarian, advanced with his army against Constantinople . He robbed Thrace and Macedonia where he devastated and ruined everything." This testimony is taken from a Bulgarian history book (GIBI). Nicholaos Mystikos also offers testimony about Bulgarian Middle Age terror in Macedonia : "ruined homes, burned churches and monasteries, raped virgins and tortured priests..." There are many such testimonies of Bulgarian atrocities committed in Macedonia . Why would the Bulgars do that to themselves if Macedonians were truly Bulgarian? If we are to assume, as some Bulgarians have done, that the Macedonians have descended from the Bulgars, then we need to have some basis for "when" the Macedonians became "Bulgars"; what century, what year and what month on which to make our assumptions? Obviously such information does not exist because the Macedonians are not and never where Bulgars! Again then why are such claims still made? From what we know from history the Bulgars did invade Macedonia a couple of times for short periods of time during the Middle Ages. Unfortunately this act alone does not qualify as a valid reason for Macedonians to have become Bulgars. This is like saying because of Hitler’s occupation of France for four years, the French people are now ethnic Germans. The most obvious reason of course for Macedonians and others to be claiming to be Bulgars then is the same reason as Macedonians claimed to be Turks, Greeks, Serbians, etc., later and that is because by doing so they had something to gain. Even today, after Yugoslavia’s disintegration we have some 200 self declared Yugoslavs living in Macedonia . Why? Especially since Yugoslavia no longer exists? These people declared themselves Yugoslavs because they obviously had some personal connection to Yugoslavia and not necessarily because they were "ethnic Yugoslavs". Similarly some Macedonians during the Middle Ages declared themselves Bulgars because they had something to gain. Another point to make is that there were no declared Yugoslavians in Macedonia before Yugoslavia came to exist just as there were no declared Bulgarians in Macedonia before the Bulgars invaded and briefly occupied parts of Macedonia in the 9th century. Unlike Bulgaria or Yugoslavia however, the names Macedonia and Macedonian have never disappeared since ancient times. In conclusion, claims made by Bulgarians that Bulgars exist in Macedonia (like those of Yugoslavs existing in Macedonia ) are a result of some social or economic factor and not necessarily because they are "ethnic Bulgars". Even today Macedonians declare themselves as Bulgarians so that they can get Bulgarian passports and be able to work in the European Union. Obviously, this is a reflection of economic factors rather than of ethnic ones. It is often said: "Macedonians, Bulgarians, they are the same people, after all they speak the same language; right?" Statements such as the above are more a reflection of modern day Bulgarian propaganda than they are a reflection of historical reality. We have shown above that the Bulgars arrived in the Balkans during the 7th century AD and that they were an Oriental group that spoke an Asiatic language. Today’s Bulgarians however, are a predominantly Caucasian group of people who speak a Slavic language. We have also shown above that when the Bulgars arrived in the Balkans they found people living there, speaking a Slavic language. So, given the above statements we can conclude that the Macedonians are not Bulgarians and they do not speak the Bulgar language. However, given that the historic Bulgars were Orientals and spoke an Asiatic language and the modern Bulgarians are predominantly Caucasian and speak a Slavic language, we can also see that there is an inconsistency in the Bulgarian model which postulates that the modern Bulgarians are the descendants of the historic Bulgars. If we were to ask any modern Bulgarian today about who his or her ancestors were, he or she would say they were Khan Kubrat and Khan Asparuh (whose name in Bulgarian means "swift horse"). But, as we can see Kubrat and Asparuh were Orientals! Also the title "khan" is a well-known Mongolian title. So then, how is it possible that Caucasians have descended from Orientals? We also know from history that the Bulgars were a very small group in comparison to those they found in the Balkans. It is conceivable then to assume that the small oriental group of people who spoke an Asiatic language was assimilated by the larger group of Caucasian people who lived on those lands and spoke a Slavic language. So, the next question that begs to be asked is: "Who were these Caucasians from whom the modern Bulgarians descended?" The truth is that today’s modern Bulgarians, to a large extent are the descendants of a small mix of "historic Bulgars" with a heaping large mix of historic Thracians, Slavs, Antes, Ancient Macedonians, Vlachs and other people who lived in the regions of modern day Bulgaria. According to the renowned Bulgarian historian Dimitar Angelov, more that 100,000 Caucasian Thracians lived in Bulgaria in the beginning of the Middle Ages. There is no historic event to show that these people moved or vanished so it is conceivable that the small Oriental Turko-Mongo Bulgar tribe melted among the great ancient Thracian tribes producing the modern Bulgarian nation. Professor Angelov also mentioned that many Thracian cultural elements such as customs and people’s names still do exist in Bulgaria to this day. Why then do modern Bulgarians, the vast majority of whom are Caucasians, still claim to be the descendants of the Khans who in fact were Orientals? The answer to this question lies in the 19th century when the Bulgarian people began their struggle to liberate themselves from the Turks. At that time most Bulgarian revolutionaries were educated in Russia which instilled in them that they were the descendants of the fierce fighting Khans. As true as that may be, Russia failed to instill in them that the modern Bulgarians are also the descendants of the mighty ancient Thracians, a descent which they partly share with the Macedonians. So there is some truth to the rumors that Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same people, or should we say similar people, since both partly descended from the ancient Thracians and they both speak dialects of languages that have Thracian words. Should our readers require more information or clarification on any of the above subjects, please feel free to write to us at email@example.com (Aleksandar Donski, author of the book Ethno-genetic differences between Bulgarians and Macedonians), or firstname.lastname@example.org (Risto Stefov, author of the book History of the Macedonian People from Ancient Times to the Present). Proof the Ancient Macedonian language spoken by Ancient Macedonians, King Phillip II Of Macedonia and Alexander "The Great Macedonian Of Macedonia" in Ancient Macedonia times is on the Rosetta Stone and is the same language spoken as the Modern Macedonian language in today's Republic Of Macedonia not the Gayreek Gypsy language of Gayreece (Hell Ass) and not the Bulgayrian Tartar language of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria. The Ancient Macedonian language of Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Macedonia and the Modern Macedonian language of todays Macedonians in Republic Of Macedonia is pretty much the same as the Ancient Macedonian language which is written on the Rosetta Stone and any Macedonian from Republic Of Macedonia can read the Macedonian writing that was written on the Rosetta Stone by the Ancient Macedonians centuries ago. The Ancient Macedonian language of the Ancient Macedonians in Ancient Macedonia and the Modern Macedonian language of today's Macedonians in today's Republic Of Macedonia is a similar dialect to the Ancient Gayreek Gypsy and the Modern Gayreek Gypsy language but not the same language and was and is a separate language and is why we have some Gayreek Gypsy words like "Koukla" in our Modern Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia cause of some Greek influence in Ancient Macedonia times but was and is always separate to the Ancient Gayreek Gypsy language and the Modern Gayreek Gypsy language just like Ancient Macedonians, Phillip II Of Macedonia, and Alexander "The Great Macedonian Of Macedonia" were not Gayreek Gypsies because they were all known as "Barbarians" who were known separate to the Gayreek Gypsies and were not counted as Gayreek Gypsies but as "Barbarians" who conquered the Gayreek Gypsies and Ancient Gayreece (Hell Ass).The Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a separate language to the Bulgayrian Tartar language of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria, the Macedonians from Republic Of Macedonia gave the Bulgayrian Tartars from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria their alphabet to make their language. The Bulgayrian Tartars from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria speak a Russian/Ukrainian dialect mixed with the Macedonian, Serbian/Croatian (Yugoslav) and Russian/Ukrainian language while the Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a similar dialect to the Gayreek Gypsy language of Gayreece (Hell Ass) and a similar language to the Serbian/Croatian (Yugoslav) languages but not the same language but a similar language and dialect.And the Macedonian language of Republic Of Macedonia is a Indo-European language always spoken by the Macedonians from Macedonia. In the tenth century (worn out by wars with Croatia, by frequent Serbian rebellions sponsored by Byzantine gold,and by disastrous Magyar and Pecheneginvasions), Bulgaria collapsed in the face of an assault of the Rus' in 969-971. The Byzantines then began campaigns to conquerBulgaria. In 971, they seized the capital Preslavand captured Emperor Boris II. Resistancecontinued under Tsar Samuil in the westernBulgarian lands for nearly half a century. Thecountry managed to recover and defeated the Byzantines in several major battles taking thecontrol of the most of the Balkans and in 991invaded the Serbian state. However, theByzantines led by Basil II (Basil the Bulgar-Slayer)destroyed the Bulgarian state in 1018 after theirvictory at Kleidion. Basil II Emperor of the Byzantine Empire Reign nominally from 960 (as co-emperor),effectively 10 January 976 - 15 December 1025 Born 958Died 15 December 1025 Predecessor John I Tzimiskes Successor Constantine VIII Dynasty Macedonian dynasty Father Romanos II Mother Theophanohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria As you can see the Bulgarian adopted the Macedonian alphabet because it suited their existing language.
Why the Macedonians are not "Macedonian Slavs" nor “Slavs”? "THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON - The arguments and evidence that today's Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians", puts an end to the "Slav" claim. historyofmacedonia.org ·
Other sources that Proves that Bulgayrian Tartar's from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria are Tartar's from Tartarstan. The Bulgayrian Tartar's from the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria are Tartar's (Turkic/Mongol people) from Tartarstan who came to the Balkans in the 5th or 6th century and occupied Macedonia and adopted the Christian Orthodox religion and who speak a Russian/Ukrainian dialect mixed with the Macedonian and the Serbian/Croatian language with some Turkic words in the Bulgayrian Tartar language of the Former Tartarstan Republic Of Bulgayria also.And are you Aware that your vulgar name is Mongolo-Turkic? Hence NON-EUROPEAN:Were the Proto-Bulgars Türks? Were the people, led by Asparukh to the Lower Danube, Turkic-speaking?All modern scholars answer positively.This view is also supported in the latest academic edition of History of the Bulgarian lands, cf. "Istorija pa Bylgarija". T. II. S., 1981, s.60.Beshevliev, V. "Pyrvobylgarite. Bit i kultura". S., 1981; Rashev, R. "Dunavska Bylgarija i Centralna Azija".- Vtori mezhdunaroden kongres po bylgaristika. Dokladi. T.6. S., 1987, s. 205-210.The Turkic anthropological type and the Turkicness of the Proto-Bulgars have not been questioned. The linguistic data in the Namelist of the Bulgar rulers, in the Byzantine written sources as well as the Proto-Bulgar stone inscriptions are given as an irrefutable evidence to that. The Turkic names, phrases and words they contain, leave little room for discussion.A number of Middle Asian elements in the material culture of the First Bulgar kingdom, such as the 12-year cyclic animal calendar, the cult of Tangra, etc., all with undeniable analogies in the culture of the Turkic khaganate, are also brought forward.("On the origin of the Proto-Bulgars" , Rasho Rashev, Shumen. p. 23-33 in: Studia protobulgarica et Mediaevalia Europensia. In honour of Prof. V. Beshevliev, Veliko Tarnovo, 1992)http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/rashev.html "The Mongolic languages" by Juha Janhunen. MONGOLIC AND BULGAR TURKIC The language of the Asparukh and Kuber Bulgars, page 407. books.google.com.au/books?id=GMmjLzJhA2EC&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=Bulghar+Turkic&source=bl&ots=Y7xeb9i64t&sig=cv16uh-05oDGl6JJq8zahacdb9c&hl=mk&ei=L6xNS4C9KJzYmwPztODEDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Bulgar%20Turkic&f=false MONGOLIC AND BULGAR TURKIC The language of the Asparukh and Kuber Bulgars, page 407. books.google.com.au/books?id=GMmjLzJhA2EC&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=Bulghar+Turkic&source=bl&ots=Y7xeb9i64t&sig=cv16uh-05oDGl6JJq8zahacdb9c&hl=mk&ei=L6xNS4C9KJzYmwPztODEDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Bulgar%20Turkic&f=false
And It is thought that the territory of Volga Bulgaria was originally settled by Finno-Ugric peoples, including Mari people. The Bulgars of Kubrat's son and appointed heir Batbayan Bezmer moved from the Azov region in about AD 660, commanded by the Kazarig Khagan Kotrag to whom he had surrendered. They reached Idel-Ural in the eighth century, where they became the dominant population at the end of the 9th century, uniting other tribes of different origin which lived in the area. Some Bulgar tribes, however, continued westward and eventually settled along the Danube River, in what is now known as Bulgaria proper, where they created a confederation with the Slavs, adopting a South Slavic language and the Eastern Orthodox faith.
Proof Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) are TurkoShiptari (TurkoAlbanian's). Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) are Shiptari (Albanian), that is why the first president of Gayreece (Hell Ass) was a proud Shiptare (Albanian) called "George Konduriottes" who was forced to get Hell Assnized (Hellanized) and become a Gayreek Gypsy because the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) don't recognize the minorities living in their country Gayreece (Hell Ass) and say and claim "That there are only Gayreek Gypsies living in Gayreece (Hell Ass) who are 100% pure Ancient Gayreek Gypsies in Gayreece (Hell Ass) and that there no minorities in Gayreece (Hell Ass)" because the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) Hell Assnize (Hellanize) the minorities living in Gayreece (Hell Ass) and make the minorities in Gayreece (Hell Ass) Gayreek Gypsies too to make it look like that there are no minorities living in Gayreece (Hell Ass) and make it look like that there are only Gayreek Gypsies living in Gayreece (Hell Ass) to make their country Gayreece (Hell Ass) and their Gayreek Gypsy people/race look like they are 100% pure Ancient Gayreek Gypsies cause they are ashamed and in denial about the real and true mixed identity, DNA, roots, ancestors, origins, history, culture and etc... Of their country Gayreece (Hell Ass) and their mixed so called Gayreek Gypsy people from Gayreece (Hell Ass) who are actually TurkoShiptari (TurkoAlbanians). And Gayreece (Hell Ass) was also run by a German king called "King Otto" and when he went to Gayreece (Hell Ass) he said "Where are all the Gayreek Gypsies in Gayreece (Hell Ass)?, There are only Shiptari (Albanians) here". And also why is the flag of Gayreece (Hell Ass) the Indian and English Colony flag, no wonder why the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) don't even know what the stripes and the blue and white colors on their Banana In Pajamas flag means or what it stands for. And also the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) have Shiptare (Albanian) National dresses, clothes, Turkish and Shiptare (Albanian) music, dances, foods and etc... For eg: Souvlaki is a copied version of the Turkish Kebab and Gayreek Gypsy coffee is Turkish coffee and i guess that also explains why the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) have skin like Middle Eastern people and explains why they are so hairy just like them too and why the Parthenon was used as a Mosque, because they are TurkoShiptari (TurkoAlbanians). A Greek from Greece who is a author who wrote books that tells the truth about the true and real identity of the Greek nation/people and the true history of his country Greece. www.ndimou.gr/en/ Proof the first president of Gayreece (Hell Ass) was a Shiptare (Albanian) called "George Konduriottes" who got Hell Assnized by the Gayreek Gypsies of Gayreece (Hell Ass). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Kountouriotis www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1111 www.macedoniantruth.org/2009/03/31/the-first-president-of-greece-was-an-albanian-1824/ www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/85877 Proof the national dress of the Gayreek Gypsies from Gayreece (Hell Ass) is Shiptare (Albanian). wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Fustanella The national Skull Hat of Gayreece (Hell Ass) is Shiptare (Albanian).
The national Folklore of Gayreece (Hell Ass) is Shiptare (Albanian).
Rigas the Vlach defines who is a “Greek”, 1797Source: “The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents” by Richard Clogg, 1976.I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.When they do not even have a 200 year old history.They are a modern fabrication of the thinkers and philhellenes of the day, which was materialized in absurdum when the “pure” Greek king from Bavaria, King Othon the Hellene started to rule his kingdom.Which prior to his rule had never existed in history.Greece is a modern myth. i61.tinypic.com/wanipw.jpg i58.tinypic.com/2qlbk04.jpg i61.tinypic.com/29dbvpt.jpg Modern Greece 1st constitution, a “Greek” is a Christian, 1827 The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827. —> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty. 1) —> 6. Greeks are: 2) —> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ. 3) —> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it. 4) —> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens. NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian! This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are. Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks. The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks? You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from? Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity. i62.tinypic.com/b8okup.jpg “It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity. “We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.” From the book of Nikos Dimou, the misery of being Greek". tinypic.com/view.php?pic=dcj9d&s=8 tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ueh0td&s=8 www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/nikos-dimou-the-agony-and-the-ecstasy-of-being-greek-6166154.html "Greek" government in 1824. The government which wanquished the faction of Kolokotrones was formed by a coalition of three parties: the ALBANIAN Shipowners of Hydra and Spetzas; the Greek Primates of Morea; and Romeliot captains of armatoli. The chief authority was conceded to the ALBANIAN shipowners; George Konduriottes was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president. It is necessary to record the sad truth, that two more ignorant and incapable persons were never intrusted with the direction of a nation's affairs. The Greeks are most prejudiced of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language, and whose intellectual deficienties prevented them from expressing their thoughts even in the courupt Tosk (ALBANIAN) dialect which they habitualy used. The descendants of Pericles and Demosthenes submitted tamely to this aliens in civilization and race, because they were orthodox and wealthy. ( George Finlay:"History of the Greek revolution", volume 2, 1861 p.30). According to historians, authors, statesmen, academics etc, modern Greeks spoke Albanian before the masses of population began to learn their new language called Greek. Although, there were many different languages at the turn of 1800-century and actually well into 1900- century. We know why the Greek state began a major build out of state schools in the second half of 1800-century. During this period the newly formed state realized that it had to educate and teach the large masses of how to speak Greek. This fact is also reflected by what it meant to be "Greek" at the time of independence. You would think that speaking a language called Greek would be a qualification, but this was NOT the case. Instead, all it took to be qualified as "Greek" was to be a Christian believer. This was written in the constitution itself. The state did not consider language as part of the identity as they knew that the big masses of people did not speak "Greek". Had the big masses of people spoken "Greek", then there would not be a massive build out of state schools to teach people "Greek". Here below we can see what historians and professors are saying.========= "The Usable Past" - 2003 By K.S Brown & Professor Yannis Hamilakis Page 140: "..As a result of a number of historical factors, much of the rural population in central Greece was Albanian-speaking by the time of the creation of modern Greek state in the 1830s" ========== "ALBANIA - The Rise of a Kingdom" By J.Swire - 1971 Page 11: "...In an article in the Greek monthly magazine, Parnassos - February 1916, it is stated that "the majority of our soldiers speak to one another in the Albanian language....a very deplorable habit.....It is expedient that this habit be destroyed by all necessary and vigorous means". Prince Lichonowsky wrote: "the so-called Greek national dess itself is of Albanian orgin".========= VENIZELOS (Famous Greek Statesman - Prime Minister: 1910-1920, 1932) By Herbert Adams Gibbons, Ph.D [At The Peace Conferance] Page 346: "...Venizelos advanced the famous theory of national consciousness as the test of nationality..."One may be temped", he said, "to raise the objection that a substantial portion of the Greek population uses Albanian as its mother tongue, and is, consequently, in all probability, of Albanian orgin" ========== The Empty Cradle of Democracy Alexandra Halkias Page 59: "...Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek- speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time.” ========== POLITICS IN MODERN GREECE By Professor Keith R. Legg Page 86: LANGUAGE "..At the time of independence, the range in local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian" ========== New York Times - June 2009 Nikos Dimou “.....We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover". William ST. Clair “That Greece Might Still Be Free” Oxford University Press – 1972 Page 232: “..It was probably at this time (independence) that the Albanian dress made its, decisive step towards being regarded as the national dress of Greece. The Government party, being largely Albanians themselves, favoured the dress and a version of it was common among the Greek “klephts” and “armatoli”. Now it seemed that anyone who donned an Albanian dress could claim to be a soldier and share in the Bonanza. ========= You all read that? The GOVERNMENT party, being largely Albanians themseleves....====== "Modern Greece A Short History" C.M. Woodhouse Page 163 "....It is a striking fact that the leading defenders of Greek liberty at this time were largely Non- Greek. Koundouriotis was decended from the Albanian invadors of Greece in the 14th century...One of the few leaders who maintained resistance far to the north of the Gulf of Corinth was the Souliote,Marko Botsaris,whos followers were largely Albanian" ========== You all read that? Defenders of Greek liberty were LARGELY NON- Greek. If we go back in time to a place called Athens before it was made into the new German made kingdom what would we find hanging around the ruins? According to Edmond About close to the mid-nineteenth century Athens, twenty five years ago, was only an Albanian village" and that "Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds of nations". He also goes on to say; "The Turkish village which formerly clustered round the base of the acropolis has not disappeared; it forms a whole quarter of the town....an immense majority of the population of this quarter is composed of Albanians. Eventually the new Bavarian monarchy would remedy this situation in not just Athens but all of German made modern Greece. The Albanians of Athens and whatever else the other rabble of races were did not fit the mold of what Wincklemann's fantasy manifested in Germany and Western Europe. In 1834, it was decided to make Athens the new capital of the Kingdom of Otto's Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to create wide streets, the squares the boulevards: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of 5000 inhabitants had become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand(8). In essence we see that Germans literally created Modern Greece from the ground up. But Athens was only one area. According to our source, Edmond About, "New Sparta is a creation of King Otto, who has formed the useless project of rescusitating all the great names of Greece. Of course Sparta was at one time not only an Albanian stronghold but a major settlement for the Slavic tribes that entered the balkans in the 6th century AD. Traveller Peter Edmund Laurent made his way through SlavoSparta before the war for independence broke out. He said; "From their manners, their features, and the names of many of the neighboring places, I should be tempted to regard them as proceeding from Sclavonian blood:many travellers pretend, however, to have discovered in these barbarous hordes traces of a Spartan origin We can see why King Otto wanted to create New Sparta. Because Slavo-Sparta did not fit the Aryan German Hellenic ideal with all its Slavic name places and uncouth manners. But re-creating a dead ancient civilization from the ground up was not the only task King Otto had in mind. The Bavarian masters had the church of Greece declared independent from the ecumenical church of Constantinople. The newly found church of Greece was from the beginning a prisoner of the autocratic, Bavarian ruled Greek state(11). According to historian William St.Claire German Made Greece was essentially a Bavarian colony. (That Greece Might Still Be Free). Writer Nikos Dimou states the following in a recent NY Times interview; “It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity. He also goes on to say; “We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover. YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER. "Greece is the most artificial of all artificial nations that resulted from the dissolution of the Ottoman empire. Yerasimos Kaklamanis (Analysis of Neohellenic Bourgeois Ideology,page 13) YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER. More proof Modern Greeks are not Ancient Greeks. Explain this: " A truly independent Greece is an absurdity. Greece can either be English or Russian, and since she must not be Russian, it is necessary that she be English. " (Sir Edmund Lyons, British Minister to Greece, 1841) Source: (Richard Clogg, "A Concise History of Greece", Second Edition, Cambridge University Press, 1992, pg. 53). assets.cambridge.org/97805210/04794/cover/9780521004794.jpg Once a slave always a slave. AND YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER. These Greek writers express their views on the Greek identity - all three made their statements in 2009. New York Times, June 23rd, 2009 Mr. Nikos Dimou - a Greek writer “...We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.” Article by Mr. Fotis Kapetopoulos, 15 Sep 2009 "...Modern Greeks being a messy Greco-Roman-Slavic-Turkic-Semitic lot emerging from the Ottoman Empire who with the leadership of people like Byron declared themselves Greek - The forced westernization process which began in Ottoman Greece between 1821 and 1921, was more about CREATING Greeks rather than liberating them - Images of Hellenes were invented in the minds of Enlightened British, French and German aristocrats and bourgeoisie". Interview with the Greek writer Mr. Lenos Hristidis (19/09/2009): "..Suddenly, we got all those pastors who inserted the idea that they actually are not shepherds but proud sons, grandchildren and relatives of Pericles, Demostenisa and Pythagoras, the names for which they have never heard of, but it looked like the Europeans to respect. So we have essentially the entire national identity built on lies: we are all sons of Socrates (but not gay)".
ulf: well, seems like you were lucky one as my cousin even though he has all the common symptoms: sore throat, constant temperature, and feeling weak - couldn't book himself a testing.
Jun 26, 2020 15:18:51 GMT -5
branislavnusic: sore throat is not one of the symptoms i think
Jun 26, 2020 15:27:22 GMT -5
Pyrros: Guys, come the funkety on, covid does not exist. I dont know if this will upset the demons but I had to let it out. Sorry demons.
Jul 1, 2020 13:09:23 GMT -5
Pyrros: Pssst demons, come on you funkers, lit this subaru on fire, I am gonna get a better one
Jul 1, 2020 13:14:27 GMT -5
ulf: "covid does not exist"
Jul 1, 2020 13:39:56 GMT -5
ulf: I got nothing more to add than this:
Jul 1, 2020 13:40:09 GMT -5
branislavnusic: The saxons are suffering the worst so it's a good thing
Jul 1, 2020 14:54:49 GMT -5
Pyrros: I dont know the state of whesto propaganda in Serbia or the amount of real Death the demons have injected into the society, but here in Grekolandia this is supreme royal joke.
Jul 2, 2020 4:08:17 GMT -5
Pyrros: I mean we are one on top of the other like a massive orgy kind of thing, yet, no covid to be found anywhere.
Jul 2, 2020 4:09:06 GMT -5
Pyrros: Also Admin is of the same philosophy : covid does not exist, it is only a spiritual virtual concept not real.
Jul 2, 2020 4:10:51 GMT -5
Pyrros: false-Greeks hate Serbs. Serbs should only go to Bulgaria. The only serious Slavic land in south balkans who respects other Slavs.
Jul 3, 2020 7:30:03 GMT -5
ulf: What should they do? Watch them spread the disease? Don't be ridiculous, they should be graceful they allowed them to go back home. This mans health got worse after few days, now he is in Serbian hospital
Jul 3, 2020 10:11:37 GMT -5
Pyrros: The disease? ok... Anyways this is not the point. The point is Slavs need to get serious. Stop dealing with haters.
Jul 4, 2020 0:12:24 GMT -5