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Post by chalkedon on Apr 9, 2009 7:01:12 GMT -5
Not just colonies...Much more than that...The whole peninsula is Greek for God's sake. At least it used to be, and then the foreigners blew in from the east... There are varieties of Anatolian Greeks:Constantinopolean Greeks,Aegean Greeks,Cappadocian Greeks and Pontic Greeks. So for Anatolia,the Greek aspect came from outside just like the Turkish part. Yes, there are many varieties of Greeks. No, its not the same w/ the turks. Turks used force....and i cant find any records of hellenes forcing ppl in anatolia to be hellenized. But again, its a different subject and quite a long one as well.
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Post by hellboy87 on Apr 9, 2009 11:03:51 GMT -5
Well,the Greek presence in Anatolia is for thousands of years unlike Turks.
Whether or not there was force involved,well,I will say that it was most likely a variety of reasons or ways of which Hellenization occured.
For example,with the Turks,in some part of Anatolia,when they established themselves politically the Turks declared "the official language is Turkish".And since Islam,the Perso-Arabic culture in Anatolia came with the Turks,thats why Anatolians,most of them,who converted to Islam adopted those,but blended it to their existing culture.Hence,the cultural similarities with Greeks,Armenians,Arabs,Persians.
I dont know whether the Greeks did that with their language or any other part of their culture,but by doing one of those,by declaring by law that something from their culture is the law,that,is already some form of like force,or it is plain force,you know? Or it could be the result of voluntary adoption because the locals liked Greek culture,or because it was a status symbol as in it was considered superior,you know?
Like for example,Britian ruled the Indian subcontinent,and you see,cricket,a British sport is super popular there.They didnt force it on the locals,but it was adopted and you see? Its now part of the India Pakistan culture.Not only that,British legal system,the English language,came too.
Also,dont forget that Greek political and military rule of Anatolia,was,for a very very long time.The Greek presence in Anatolia is waaaay longer than Spanish,British presence in the Americas.
Dont forget another thing,that in ancient times,the Greek considered people who did not practise Greek culture or speak Greek language,barbarians.So who knows? The Greeks,being superior then,may have incited self-hatred among Anatolians that they adopted Greek culture. But again,I think its a variety of reasons on how Anatolians,many of them became Greek.
Bottom line is,ethnic Greeks of Anatolia are largely Hellenized of Anatolian descent.
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Post by thracian08 on Apr 9, 2009 12:29:39 GMT -5
You are WRONG hellboy. The pics you put up are Kirgiz, Uzbeks, and they are NOT the Oguz Turks that migrated to present day Turkey ! The Oguz Turks are not very Asiatic in their appearance !! In fact, there are many Yoruks in Turkey who are descendants of them, and some even have blond hair & blue eyes, & have nothing to do with Greeks, or people's in the Balkans. I actually see Arabs all the time in the US, & you have no clue what they look like !!Turks are not a Semitic race. And also there were no Arabs in Turkey!! You try to misportray Turks !! And Turks didn't force anyone to become Turks !! People back then had no sense of ethnicity. The Ottomans & Selcuks were extremely tolerant rulers !! They did not force anyone to convert to Islam., and in fact Muslims, Christians & Jews lived side by side. The people who converted did out of their free will. This type of thinking is used so that Christians can hate Muslims in Europe & also b/c they cannot accept that they were ruled by them In the ninth century the Oghuz Turks from the Aral steppes drove the Pecheneg Turks of the Emba region and the River Ural toward the west. In the tenth century they inhabited the steppe of the rivers Sari-su, Turgai, and Emba to the north of Lake Balkhash of modern day Kazakhstan. A clan of this nation, the Seljuks, embraced Islam and in the eleventh century invaded Persia, where it founded the Great Seljuk Empire. Similarly, in the eleventh century a pagan Oghuz clan—referred to as Uzes or Torks in the Russian chronicles—overthrew Pecheneg supremacy in the Russian steppe. Harried by another Turkic horde, the Kipchaks—a branch of the Kimaks of the middle Irtysh or of the Ob—these Oghuz penetrated as far as the lower Danube, crossed it and invaded the Balkans, where they were either crushed or struck down by an outbreak of plague, causing the survivors either to flee or to join the Byzantine imperial forces as mercenaries. The Oghuz seem to have been related to the Pechenegs, some of whom were clean-shaven and others of whom had small 'goatee' beards. According to the book Attila and the Nomad Hordes, "Like the Kimaks they set up many carved wooden funerary statues surrounded by simple stone balbal monoliths." The authors of the book go on to note that "Those Uzes or Torks who settled along the Russian frontier were gradually Slavicized though they also played a leading role as cavalry in twelfth and early thirteenth century Russian armies where they were known as Black Hats.... Oghuz warriors served in almost all Islamic armies of the Middle East from the eleventh century onwards, in Byzantium from the ninth century, and even in Spain and Morocco." In later centuries, they adapted and applied their own traditions and institutions to the ends of the Islamic world and emerged as empire-builders with a constructive sense of statecraft. Linguistically, the Oghuz are listed together with the old Kimaks of the middle Yenisei of the Ob, the old Kipchaks who later emigrated to southern Russia, and the modern Kirghiz in one particular Turkic group, distinguished from the rest by the mutation of the initial y sound to j. "The term 'Oghuz' was gradually supplanted among the Turks themselves by Türkmen, 'Turcoman', from the mid tenth century on, a process which was completed by the beginning of the thirteenth. The Ottoman dynasty, who gradually took over Anatolia after the fall of the Seljuks, toward the end of the thirteenth century, led an army that was also predominantly Oghuz. The name Oghuz is derived from the word ok, which means "arrow" or "tribe". The depiction of an archer shooting an arrow was the flag of the Seljuk Empire, founded by the Oghuz Turks in the 10th century. The designation of "Oghuz" was given to a series of Turkic tribes in Central Asia who had united into a new confederation. This socio-political union led to the emergence of a new larger inter-tribal Turkic entity, the Oghuz. The Oghuz gradually grew larger as various other Turkic tribes united during the Göktürk Empire in the 6th and 7th centuries. They are referred to as "Western Turks" because they moved west from other Turkic peoples after the Göktürk empire collapsed, and because the majority of the areas in which they inhabit today (except Turkmenistan and the Turkmen Sahra) are west of the Caspian Sea, while those referred to as "Eastern Turks" live east of the Caspian Sea. Oghuz Turk dynasties Seljuks White Sheep Turcomans Black Sheep Turcomans Ottomans Afsharids Qajars Artuqids Safavids According to the Encyclopædia Britannica the name Turkmen is a synonym of Oghuz, which includes all the Turkish (Turkic) population who live to the southwest of Central Asia: Turkey Azerbaijan Iran Turkmenistan in other countries: Afghanistan Iraq, Syria and other Arab countries Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moldova and the Republic of Macedonia The Turkish historian Yýlmaz Öztuna presents almost the same definition of the name "Turkmen." He labels the Turkmen Oghuz or western Turkish populations as: Ottomans Azerbaijan Turkmen (Turkmenistan) So as you can see, the Oguz Group is descendend from Turkmenistan, and consists of this group that went westwards.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 9, 2009 14:05:18 GMT -5
Well,the Greek presence in Anatolia is for thousands of years unlike Turks. Whether or not there was force involved,well,I will say that it was most likely a variety of reasons or ways of which Hellenization occured. For example,with the Turks,in some part of Anatolia,when they established themselves politically the Turks declared "the official language is Turkish".And since Islam,the Perso-Arabic culture in Anatolia came with the Turks,thats why Anatolians,most of them,who converted to Islam adopted those,but blended it to their existing culture.Hence,the cultural similarities with Greeks,Armenians,Arabs,Persians. I dont know whether the Greeks did that with their language or any other part of their culture,but by doing one of those,by declaring by law that something from their culture is the law,that,is already some form of like force,or it is plain force,you know? Or it could be the result of voluntary adoption because the locals liked Greek culture,or because it was a status symbol as in it was considered superior,you know? Like for example,Britian ruled the Indian subcontinent,and you see,cricket,a British sport is super popular there.They didnt force it on the locals,but it was adopted and you see? Its now part of the India Pakistan culture.Not only that,British legal system,the English language,came too. Also,dont forget that Greek political and military rule of Anatolia,was,for a very very long time.The Greek presence in Anatolia is waaaay longer than Spanish,British presence in the Americas. Dont forget another thing,that in ancient times,the Greek considered people who did not practise Greek culture or speak Greek language,barbarians.So who knows? The Greeks,being superior then,may have incited self-hatred among Anatolians that they adopted Greek culture. But again,I think its a variety of reasons on how Anatolians,many of them became Greek. Bottom line is,ethnic Greeks of Anatolia are largely Hellenized of Anatolian descent. When i mean force...i mean the conquering of land against local population. This is true for countries that you mentioned, Britain, Turkey, USA, ect. I dont believe i have ever seen that term used in relation to hellenes in anatolia this pretty much sums it up nicely en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_MinorThe name Anatolia comes from the Greek AíáôïëÞ (Ánatolí), "rise (i.e. sunrise)", or Áíáôïëßá (Anatolía), "(land) of the sunrise" or simply the "East".[1] It likely dates back at least 3,000 years, from the Ionian settlement period in the 1st millennium BC. (See also Ionian League). The Byzantine Greek term Anatolicon ("Eastern") signified the lands to the east of Europe and of the Roman Empire's late-era capital city of Constantinople, also New Rome (now "Istanbul").[2] The etymology of the word supports the idea that Anatolia was a peninsula bordered by the Black Sea, the Mediterranean Sea, and the Eastern Taurus Range.
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Post by hellboy87 on Apr 9, 2009 17:51:35 GMT -5
Like ive,said we dont know.But we do know that the Greeks were an outside thing and they came there and established themselves politically at least
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Simarik Turkish Pwincess
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 1, 2009 20:49:38 GMT -5
another bullsh.t thread.
Turks in Turkey can look like everything. from Scottish to Chinese... but they are mainly med looking. There are of course people who look like arabs, since in the summer time everyone goes south and gets sunburnt. Difference is Turks eyes are more oriental and generally lighter coloured. Turkish Cypriots are definitely lighter skinned and have lighter eyes than Greek Cypriots.
Btw this is all first hand knowledge since I have been to both Cyprus and Turkey and have lived among both people for years in London. Whereas hellboy only googles a load of poo from the net
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Post by thracian08 on May 7, 2009 14:06:22 GMT -5
Skin color doesn't determine ethnicity. Just b/c some Turks are darker in some areas does not mean they look Arab. This is due to staying out in the sun!
Just look at Persians and Armenians; they have black hair, are dark skinned, hairy, have thick eyebrows, have large noses, and are considered white.
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Post by hellboy87 on May 9, 2009 6:55:32 GMT -5
what rubbish!
Most Turks are ARAB/Middle Eastern looking! These Turks sure have airs!
And since when were Persians considered white? NEVER!
Anatolian Turks,are a snobbish bunch.They must always align themselves with the"best" in the world.And since the white ARE considered the best,they lie and exxagerate about themselves!
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Post by monsterofsouli on May 10, 2009 23:03:14 GMT -5
^^^^ Hellboy... the word "Iranian" apparently is derived from the word Aryan or perhaps the other way around. I am not exactly sure which way. But I do know that Persians or Iranians are considered to be one of the original Aryan tribes.
I have said it before though that I do not think there is such a thing as "white." If you go to a so called "white" country you will see many different types of hair color, eye color, skin color, physical statures. The people in my opinion look pretty unhomogenous to me. Where as if you go to China in my opinion I would have great difficulty in telling the people apart. They all seem to look so similar.
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Post by monsterofsouli on May 10, 2009 23:04:08 GMT -5
In my personal opinion though... if there is such a thing as "white" Turks definitely don't fit in that category.
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Post by thracian08 on May 11, 2009 13:49:32 GMT -5
Turks are definently White.
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Post by hellboy87 on May 15, 2009 13:15:14 GMT -5
No,Turks of Turkey are generally not considered white and Turkics,original at least are not white
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Post by thracian08 on May 15, 2009 18:09:55 GMT -5
YES they are.
Arabs are even considered white !
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Post by monsterofsouli on May 16, 2009 11:32:09 GMT -5
^^^^ Define white!!! If you cannot then stfu... okay.
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Post by monsterofsouli on May 16, 2009 11:32:47 GMT -5
Does being white mean you live in a trailer park, unemployed and watch Jerry Springer all day long?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on May 19, 2009 8:22:59 GMT -5
I dont think so.History says,Greeks established colonies in Anatolia.It doesnt say there was mass migration of Greeks into Anatolia. I think the Hellenization of Anatolians was also the result of the adoption of Greek Orthodox Christianity. Kind of the same thing with Turkification. I'm not implying that there was force,I think it was a variety reasons. But Greek rule in Anatolia was,very very long.So its no suprise it happened. Not just colonies...Much more than that...The whole peninsula is Greek for God's sake. At least it used to be, and then the foreigners blew in from the east... Most of western Asia Minor WAS populated by different thracian tribes and their states were nothing else but thracian: Troy, Bythinia, Mysia, Frigia, Lydia, etc. Even the sea had the name - Thracian Sea. Between Thrace and these thrax states of Asia Minor. Greek were only as colonist, that is to say max 10% of total population. And as we know, thracians weren't any greek.
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Post by raven on May 19, 2009 15:43:29 GMT -5
"And since the white ARE considered the best,they lie and exxagerate about themselves! "
who considers "whites" (which is a BS term anyway) the best? You?
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Post by hellboy87 on May 20, 2009 20:29:50 GMT -5
The world^^^
Hmmmm....maybe you should look at race relations in Latin America and read about internalized racism among coloured peoples.
You know,I read that 48% of women in my country use skin lightenning
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Post by hellboy87 on May 20, 2009 20:30:33 GMT -5
^^^^ Define white!!! If you cannot then stfu... okay. Indigenous people from Europe,people you see with "those" features you know???
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Post by hellboy87 on May 20, 2009 20:32:33 GMT -5
Not just colonies...Much more than that...The whole peninsula is Greek for God's sake. At least it used to be, and then the foreigners blew in from the east... Most of western Asia Minor WAS populated by different thracian tribes and their states were nothing else but thracian: Troy, Bythinia, Mysia, Frigia, Lydia, etc. Even the sea had the name - Thracian Sea. Between Thrace and these thrax states of Asia Minor. Greek were only as colonist, that is to say max 10% of total population. And as we know, thracians weren't any greek. Rhezus,I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether the Thracians came to populate those areas or just colonize like the Greeks and Turkics did later. So you see the Anatolians there may have been "Thracianized".
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