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Post by Dragos Voda on Oct 9, 2008 23:21:17 GMT -5
Do you think the Marxist beliefs about history are true? Will the proletariat ever overthrow the bourgeoisie and establish real socialism? The reason that the communist bloc wasn't real socialism is because it didn't develop in the western industrialized nations but instead in the eastern Europe which was based on rural agriculture.
Because people were reading Marx's writings a whole phase in the natural development of socialism was passed over. It didn't develop in the west because of improvement in living standards brought about by new technology. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 9, 2008 23:23:42 GMT -5
^ If it ever does (Which is on its way of happening), it will happen in the former WEU. Just look at the Social Programs these nations have. It is the closest to Socialism. The USSR and Eastern Bloc, as well as other Communist States, failed because of greedy people who were in power, and carried away.
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 10, 2008 2:53:53 GMT -5
Lets hope not. I believe that a person should be able to profit from their own labour and that public/government ownership should exist on a very limited scale (only on essentials like roads, parks, schools, etc.)
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Post by MiG on Oct 10, 2008 2:57:44 GMT -5
^ Such as in former WEU.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 10, 2008 3:12:12 GMT -5
Greed and exploitation are inherent in the modern capitalist systems as we live in them every day. So the seed of jealousy and arrogance is well planted in those societies. I believe in advanced national/natural socialist states with domestic productions, extended endorsement/use of mechanical/electronical/electrical/biotechnical/computer technology , where machines will be doing the basic physical labor and people will do whatever they choose as long as they contribute positively to their society.
Before we do as mankind any step further, we must hit greed and hit it hard. Bad management of human and natural resources have f**ked our planet. Semi-Chaotic neoliberal approaches can add nothing but more pain and sorrow.
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 10, 2008 3:59:42 GMT -5
What does a military alliance have to do with economics? Greed and exploitation are inherent in the modern capitalist systems as we live in them every day. So the seed of jealousy and arrogance is well planted in those societies. I believe in advanced national/natural socialist states with domestic productions, extended endorsement/use of mechanical/electronical/electrical/biotechnical/computer technology , where machines will be doing the basic physical labor and people will do whatever they choose as long as they contribute positively to their society. Before we do as mankind any step further, we must hit greed and hit it hard. Bad management of human and natural resources have f**ked our planet. Semi-Chaotic neoliberal approaches can add nothing but more pain and sorrow. I think you're confusing Capitalism with Imperialism or Colonization.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 10, 2008 5:06:20 GMT -5
Look Deucaon, do you know of *one* instance in history where Capitalism DIDNT mean Imperialism, or vice versa? The nature of the bargain and forced progress and increased profit can only result in expectations for more favorable bargains and more hasty progress and more profit (=Imperialism). You are trying to separate those two in vain.
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 10, 2008 6:15:36 GMT -5
Look Deucaon, do you know of *one* instance in history where Capitalism DIDNT mean Imperialism, or vice versa? The nature of the bargain and forced progress and increased profit can only result in expectations for more favorable bargains and more hasty progress and more profit (=Imperialism). Capitalism gives an individual the ability to earn the profits of their labour and (according to recent definitions) is the free distribution of capital. Imperialism/Colonization is a state/country/nation (trying to) politically, economically and militarily subjugate and/or socially influence another state/country/nation. You are trying to separate those two in vain. You are trying to connect those two in vain. Tell me what you would rather prefer. Socialism? The economic system which is no better (and in some instances worse than) Feudalism?
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 10, 2008 6:17:40 GMT -5
^ If it ever does (Which is on its way of happening), it will happen in the former WEU. Just look at the Social Programs these nations have. It is the closest to Socialism. The USSR and Eastern Bloc, as well as other Communist States, failed because of greedy people who were in power, and carried away. You are right about that the reason for socialism failing in eastern europe, is that those in power in the last years were greedy, thats one of the reasons the SFRJ fell, most of the born again nationalistc party members had been KPJ members, who just wanted more privliges... As for western european union, you are both right and wrong, it is close to socialism seen as you have emancipation, seen as most medical services and education is free, one is given the oppertunity to work ones way up, but, this, and high living standards are only meintained by using thrid world countries as slaves.... buying cheap resurces from corrupted leaders in the developing world, and child labur... on the other hand, there are few, well, there are non socialist states today, China likes to call it self socialist, but they use child labour do not have free education, and the political elite live like kings, they have more privliges then the western elite... whilst the eastern european elites, while still having more privliges then the common worker, like in the SFRJ, still had far far far less prviliges then the western elites... most of the world is hyper capitalist. the WEU can keep these standards of living since it gets cheap things from africa and asia... as for real socialism... will it ever come? perhaps it would be good, seen as one would have a just society, but I do not see it happening for the next 500 years... lol hell, I do not even see a time where over 10% of the worlds population will have an all free health care, and al free education... would the opening poster mind telling us from where he is, does he speak the language of the serbian forum..
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Post by Dragos Voda on Oct 10, 2008 11:18:47 GMT -5
Lets hope not. I believe that a person should be able to profit from their own labour and that public/government ownership should exist on a very limited scale (only on essentials like roads, parks, schools, etc.) Yeah, sure, but capitalism encourages people to pursue their individual well-being instead of the well-being of society as a whole. Anyways, its obvious that how hard somebody works in capitalist societies doesn't always correspond to how much they get paid, so why should a lazy bum be able to make more money than somebody who works hard?
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Post by MiG on Oct 10, 2008 12:58:45 GMT -5
What does a military alliance have to do with economics? Absolutely nothing. I was only using the nations that belonged to that, as an example of nations that have strong social programs.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2008 14:18:35 GMT -5
^ If it ever does (Which is on its way of happening), it will happen in the former WEU. Just look at the Social Programs these nations have. It is the closest to Socialism. The USSR and Eastern Bloc, as well as other Communist States, failed because of greedy people who were in power, and carried away. Wrong. The Eastern Bloc collapsed due to the USSR's increasing weakness and the consumerist desires of the population. The USSR was unable to control it's puppets. The USSR collapsed because of it's increasing weakness and the ocnsumerists desires of the population. The USSR was weakened because of the amount of aid it gave to foreign states such as Cuba, North Korea, Ethiopia and others evey year -- it exceeds the amount the EU-15 and USA and Canada give annually in aid. The USSR was also weakened by it's huge military expenditures. Probably the biggest factor was the fact that the hard currency for these foreign aid expenditures and military expenditures came from oil sales and at the time the west refused to build oil pipelines, the west and Japan was reluctant to greatly increase the amount of oil they bought from the USSR and lastly the price was too low, especially after 1985.
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2008 14:19:50 GMT -5
^ If it ever does (Which is on its way of happening), it will happen in the former WEU. Just look at the Social Programs these nations have. It is the closest to Socialism. The USSR and Eastern Bloc, as well as other Communist States, failed because of greedy people who were in power, and carried away. The WEU is leading more towards "economic Fascism"/corporatism. Profits are private, losses are socialized.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 10, 2008 14:32:57 GMT -5
The WEU is leading more towards "economic Fascism"/corporatism. Profits are private, losses are socialized. well said man. also i think that not all nations/cultures fit to any system or any system to any population/culture. free markets for the greedy westies socialism for the more chilled and cool and spiritual easties!
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Post by radovic on Oct 10, 2008 14:48:13 GMT -5
The WEU is leading more towards "economic Fascism"/corporatism. Profits are private, losses are socialized. well said man. also i think that not all nations/cultures fit to any system or any system to any population/culture. free markets for the greedy westies socialism for the more chilled and cool and spiritual easties! A distorted imperialist free market for the wessies. A non-distorted free market like system for the rest. I'm more on the free market side, I tend to gravitate towards libretarianism.
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 10, 2008 15:40:58 GMT -5
I think Marxists beliefes of the ideal proleteriat society came close with Lenin and Enver Hoxha but of course they had their flaws. Lenin was a better example of what a good communist or socialist leader should be. Remember Lenin introduced the NEP and the Soviet Union was taking a better direction but when Stalin came to power and replaced the NEP with the 5 yr plan everything went to hell. If Lenin hadn't been poisoned by either Stalin or Trostky Communism might have had a better chance...
Besides Marx never imagined that Communism would take off in Russia or Eastern Europe he thought the Communist revolution would happen in industrialized countreis like Germany, England and France so never say never....I think that would requrie a good, charismatic leader tho...like me for example, Vive le Proleteriat!!!
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 10, 2008 17:35:04 GMT -5
Yeah, sure, but capitalism encourages people to pursue their individual well-being instead of the well-being of society as a whole. Anyways, its obvious that how hard somebody works in capitalist societies doesn't always correspond to how much they get paid, so why should a lazy bum be able to make more money than somebody who works hard? If a person's contribution is valuable to a firm/company/corporation/enterprise then they will get payed more than someone whose contribution is less valuable. Regardless, (true) Capitalism ensures that even the poorest of the poor can buy land and start a business if they work hard enough. Thus it encourages individual initiative more than any other economic plan. Anyway, my ideals concerning Capitalism include: No income tax, sales tax, corporate tax or taxes of any kind. A free market within the country and the legalization of all illicit goods that are not physically damaging. No free trade agreements and no immigrations/emigrations should be allowed. The government should act as a middleman in economic transactions between people inside and outside the country thus ensuring a non tax source of revenue.
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Post by Dragos Voda on Oct 10, 2008 19:02:02 GMT -5
Mega, sure capitalism encourages individual initiative, but only individual initiative. This is sad world if the only thing that motivates people is getting money for themselves. From what I know of from people who lived lived under communist governments laziness was not tolerated- you'd be considered a parasite. Stalin sent people to Gulag for being lazy (but don't get me wrong, I don't like Stalin). And with no taxes of any kind how do you propose that poor people get government grants to start their own businesses?
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 10, 2008 19:17:03 GMT -5
Mega, sure capitalism encourages individual initiative, but only individual initiative. This is sad world if the only thing that motivates people is getting money for themselves. From what I know of from people who lived lived under communist governments laziness was not tolerated- you'd be considered a parasite. Stalin sent people to Gulag for being lazy (but don't get me wrong, I don't like Stalin). And with no taxes of any kind how do you propose that poor people get government grants to start their own businesses? To be fair, the majority of people who work (in Capitalist countries) do so to feed their families and not for individual gain.
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Post by yeni on Oct 10, 2008 19:21:43 GMT -5
ticalosul
i was little kid when communism fall so don't really have personal memories but i hear the opposite from older ppl. They often mention "kapun belüli munkanélküliség" "unemployment inside the gates". Due to the commie policy of full employment the commies created jobs for everybody (and not working was a crime!) but in practice this meant they employed 2 or 3 men for the job where 1 would be enough and it was very difficult, almost imossible to be fired. Of course this was cool, who wouldn't like it, but not too profitable. This encouraged lazyness, no doubt. And comrade Stalin sent ppl to the Gulag without reason too, including many faithfull communists and their families...
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