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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 13, 2008 7:49:28 GMT -5
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 13, 2008 7:59:59 GMT -5
There are also a number of Illyrian gods and godesses, that today survive in the Albanian culture, folkore, and language. To name a few:
1. EN - An old Illyrian God whose name lives on in the Albanian word for Thursday. With the comming of Christianity, EN was denoted to demonic status (Lurker 2004:57) -------------- E ENJTE
2. PRENDE (North Albanian: PRENNE) - Old Illyrian Godess of Love, the female partner of the Thunder-God ; Perendi. Today, she is nothing more than a Catholic Saint, But in Albanian folk-beliefs she still rates as 'Zoja e Bukurise' (Queen of the Beauty). Friday is the day sacred to the 'Godess of Love' (Lurker 2004:155) ---- E PREMTE
3. PERENDI - Old Illyrian name for God, related to the Lithuanian - 'Perkunas', the God of Thunder, and the Greek word, 'keraunos = lightning. That is to say Perendi was a storm-god (Lurker 2004)
4. SHURDI - A god of thunderstorms, whose antecedents go back to the ancient Illyrians. The name is interpreted as meaning 'the deaf one', and may be connected with the name of the Thracian thunder-god 'Zibelthiurdos' (Lurker2004:172).
5. TOMOR - A divinity whose antecedents go far back into Illyrian times; 'father of the Gods and of men, and also known as BABA TOMOR. He is flanked by two female eagles with long beaks. The winds are his servitors. Even today, Albanian peasants swear by him. His spouse was supposed to be 'Bukura e Dheut' (Lurker 2004:186)
6. BUKURA E DHEUT, 'Beauty of the earth'- Old fairy-like creature in Albanian folklore and folk-tale. She is always ready to help, and so powerful that she can undertake tasks that would normally be the province of God or of an Angel. Her castle is guarded by all sorts of weird and wonderful creatures. She often develops a demonic dimension and is then in touch with the underwold (Lurker 2004:38).
Ref:
1. A. Stipcevic 1989 'Iliri: povijest, zivot, kultura'. 2. Mark Tirta 2004 'Mitologjia nder Shqiptare' 3. Manfred Lurker 2004 'The Routledge dictionary of Gods and Godesses, Devils and Demons'
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Post by kapetan on Jul 13, 2008 14:39:54 GMT -5
Once again the only thing you're proving is Illyrians tribes lived in modern day Albania. Which we all know and agree on. All of us could post Illyrian and other ancient artifacts from our countries.
And most of agree Albanian heretige is part Illyrian or Thraco-Illyrian. Dardani as well are generaly considered a Thraco-Illyrian tribe.
And I looked up the bnames of your Gods, all of them say "Albanian folklore". You became Christianized in the Middle Ages. So all you've just told me is what folklore the people had before the Middle Ages.
Prende was a goddess of love in Albanian folklore. She was the wife of Perendi and referred to in Albanian legends as zoja e bukuris ("the queen of beauty"). When Albania became Christianized in the early Middle Ages, Prende became venerated as a minor saint.
Perendi is probably cognate to Perkunas of Lithuanian mythology, see Perkwunos.
Shurdhi, "the deaf one", is the Albanian god of hail storms.
Tomor was the king of gods in the Albanian folklore. He was the father of both gods and humans. His consort was a mysterious goddess referred to as Bukura e dheut. He was attended to by wind-spirits.
In medieval Albanian he was referred to as En, and his name survives in enjtë, the Albanian word for Thursday.
The cult of Tomor has been linked to romantic nationalism from many Albanian writers and is most likely brimming with fictious additions.
From Elsie, Robert. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture. New York, 2001.
As for Illyrians.
The mythology of the Illyrians is only known through mention of Illyrian deities on Roman Empire period monuments, some with interpretatio Romana. There appears to be no single most prominent Illyrian god and there would have been much variation between individual Illyrian tribes. According to John Wilkes, the Illyrians did not develop a uniform cosmology on which to center their religious practices.
And even if there was and some of these Gods were passed down, that wouldn't prove a "Albanians are pure living Illyrians" at all. Matter of fact how does a pure Illryian even forget he's an Illyrian for so long? Just magicly? Albanians didn't even know what one was untill recently.
Not to mention it's so hard to know what to belive as authentic and what not to, because your communist government f**ked it up with their pushing of Illyrian identity on the people.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 13, 2008 16:33:15 GMT -5
BTW
I'd like for you to explain this to me. Read it carefully and nn your opinion explain what's the reason for this.
The modern Slavic peoples come from a wide variety of genetic backgrounds. The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39 by the Sorbs (Lusatia in Poland), 56.4% in Poland and 54% in Ukraine, to 15.2% in Macedonia, 14.7% in Bulgaria and 12.1% in Herzegovina.
A new study studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. The significant findings of this study are that:
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and two Southern - Slavic populations (Croats, Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs.
Some southern Slavic populations such as Serbians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs..." (from the oxford journal, and can be found on wiki on the "slavic peoples" page.
So this clearly states those Southern Slavs have very little in common with all the other Slavs. Basicly saying we're mostly called Slavs cuz of language and in the Serbian case cuz of culture and religion, not blood. And clearly points it it's because of the contribution of genes from people's who were there before the Slavic invasion.
Me as a Herzegovinian have 12% of R1a, that's only about 2% more then the avarege Albanian who has 9.8%.
How do you explain this? (keeping in mind I am not denying Illyrian heretige to Albanians)
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 14, 2008 9:42:53 GMT -5
Once again the only thing you're proving is Illyrians tribes lived in modern day Albania. Which we all know and agree on. All of us could post Illyrian and other ancient artifacts from our countries.. Because say you? serbian propagandist! what were above pics on you nothing? And most of agree Albanian heretige is part Illyrian or Thraco-Illyrian. Dardani as well are generaly considered a Thraco-Illyrian tribe... Majority of Ancient historians linked to Illyrian tribes and the oldest record reference was illyrian, the theory have about Ancient macedonans being mix of Illyrian-Thracian. And I looked up the bnames of your Gods, all of them say "Albanian folklore". You became Christianized in the Middle Ages. So all you've just told me is what folklore the people had before the Middle Ages.... Yes? and those are words who survived from Illyrians Not to mention it's so hard to know what to belive as authentic and what not to, because your communist government f**ked it up with their pushing of Illyrian identity on the people. look tipycal acting like serbs shovenist, do you know when startet comunist era? listen dude Western Science Funds about Albanians is very significant (at least from XVII Century) go read and learn about history and dont read much serb shovenist or hajduke of this forum because you will became joke. Illiria (Albanian: The Stars), first illyrian King Hylli (Alb: Star), Second Illyrian king Bardhylli (Alb: White Star), First Dardanian king Longari (Alb: Fluid Gold) find any language of this world who say same as us about Star and White.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 14, 2008 14:49:54 GMT -5
Why would a Bosniak be a Serb propagandist. I argue with them in every thread and dissagree on damn near everything. Now you're just making up s**t you want to be true. Whatever be delusional.I don't even have a problem with Albanians being Illyrians. I would love it if you were and Serbs weren't and we knew it 100%. It would be another thing to rub in. But that's just wishful thinking at this point.
Anyway, answer my second post please.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 15, 2008 2:54:13 GMT -5
listen dude, the thesis you are presenting here is straight off the serb propaganda doctrine, you think we haven't read these loose theories before? its shamefull how you come here with some dubious facts and unfounded claims and try to downplay the link when its perfectly obvious that we are the sole heirs to the most ancient dwellers of the balcans, and if you cling on to these less than mainstream claims about bosniacs being illyrian then you are deluded, and its embarrassing,
go learn about the ancient dwelling place of finiqi which is situated in the suthern city of korca, there were artifacts found, pottery and various works, spears, ornamets which come extremely close with later albanian tribes,
not to mention the blatant evidence of the language, it has been proven incontrovertably that ours is one of the oldest, you can see evidence of latin and homeric greek, and like prijesdardan said above illyrian names can only be made meaningfull through our language, linguistics is probably the most powerfull tool to give you an insight into the past and heritage, go educate your f**cking selve, read unbiased authors, read both sides and don't come in here posting propaganda and what you want to believe in from f***cking google and try to act like you know shit, and yeah .... you are a slav, do not delude yourself, you are just a converted-to-islam slav, no different to a serb, no different to a ukranian, stop trying to pass yourself off as an illyrian, what's next? you going to claim illyrians built pyramids in bosnia?
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Post by kapetan on Jul 15, 2008 2:56:24 GMT -5
Why do you keep avoiding the question and saying I claimed something. I haven't claimed anything and certinly not that "bosniaks are pure illyrians". I'm not denying anythng anymore you belive and be what you want. All I'm asking is what is your explanation for this. It's on wiki and it's credible with the sources cited under. Journal of Human Genetics. Volume 52, Number 5 / May, 2007. Publisher Springer Japan.It's childish to even question it, and I'm not a liar. So please, again, what is your explanation for this. Just give me your opinion and quit acting childish. BTW
I'd like for you to explain this to me. Read it carefully and nn your opinion explain what's the reason for this.The modern Slavic peoples come from a wide variety of genetic backgrounds. The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39 by the Sorbs (Lusatia in Poland), 56.4% in Poland and 54% in Ukraine, to 15.2% in Macedonia, 14.7% in Bulgaria and 12.1% in Herzegovina.
A new study studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. The significant findings of this study are that:
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and two Southern - Slavic populations (Croats, Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs.
Some southern Slavic populations such as Serbians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs..." (from the oxford journal, and can be found on wiki on the "slavic peoples" page. So this clearly states those Southern Slavs have very little in common with all the other Slavs. Basicly saying we're mostly called Slavs cuz of language and in the Serbian case cuz of culture and religion, not blood. And clearly points it it's because of the contribution of genes from people's who were there before the Slavic invasion. Me as a Herzegovinian have 12% of R1a, that's only about 2% more then the avarege Albanian who has 9.8%. How do you explain this? (keeping in mind I am not denying Illyrian heretige to Albanians)
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 15, 2008 3:50:37 GMT -5
what the hell has genetics ever proved in terms of historical legacy? it only helps to add fuel to the fire and divert from the issue at hand, it does not PROVE anything!
linguistics, archaeology, tranditions, historical findinds, legacy continuation, mythology,
they prove pertinence, not some obscure, freelance hit and miss genetics study, in my opinion,
you're not here to debate this in depth, you cling on to a few articles that claim bosnians are the descendants and that's all you care about, and i don't have any time to waste with this crap
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Post by kapetan on Jul 15, 2008 3:59:09 GMT -5
LMAO so in other words you have no explanation and you choose to dismiss it because it doesn't suit your view. Freelance? Obscure? If you look at the sources it's not. It's the most comprehensive study done on the subject and went on in a collective of countries.
As for Archeology you surely must know plenty of Illyrian s**t has been found all over the Balkan including Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some of the most important tribes lived there ( Daesitiates, Breuci etc.) so that's common sense. Ruins of Daorson, helmets, weapons, tombs etc. But you the Illyrian expert should know that right?
Traditions? Some have survived in Bosnia. For example tattooing of hands. And plus back to archeology, tatoo needles were found in illyrian tombs in Bosnia. Only place this custom has survived is Bosnia and north Albania. That's also continuation.
Happy?
My friend, I didn't claim anything. I'm just stating general facts. And I only asked you to tell me your opinion on why science has shown and all experts agree that south slavs are so distinct from all other slavs.
WHY CAN'T YOU EXPLAIN THAT? Jesus, it's a simple question.
But you for no reason other then that it doesn't suit you, choose to ignore it.
So tell me how di I have a discusson with someone who dissmises all things they dont like as propaganda?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 15, 2008 4:12:35 GMT -5
it may be the case that some present day bosnians may be different because they are of balcanic stock as apposed to slavic however what we are debating about here is that nucleous of illyrian stock is found in albania, whether you like it or not, and you are a slav not a native balcan dweller, is that so difficult for you to admit? illyrian footprints have been found as far as the baltic sea, doesn't mean anything.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 15, 2008 4:29:12 GMT -5
it may be the case that some present day bosnians may be different because they are of balcanic stock as apposed to slavic however what we are debating about here is that nucleous of illyrian stock is found in albania, whether you like it or not, and you are a slav not a native balcan dweller, is that so difficult for you to admit? illyrian footprints have been found as far as the baltic sea, doesn't mean anything. Wait wait...Illyrians didn't "wander" to Bosnia, they lived there, the same as they did in North Albania or anywhere else in the Balkan. Please tell me you knew this LOL. ANY history book on the region will tell you this and which tribes lived there. Bato I was from Bosnia. Daesitiates? The ones who resisted the Romans? Sound familiar? The town of Brcko today is named after the Breuci tribe also. You keep denying it as if Illyrians only lived in Albania. Sorry, that's just not the case. I don't even deny your language has connections to their ancient one. I belive you, and I agree. You seem to have a problem with admitting the Illyrian roots of all these other places. These tribes probly had not much to do with your tribes anyway since it hasn't been proven all these tribes thought of themselves as one "Illyrian" group. But you realize herzegovina and montenegro and north Albania are all connected through mountains right? And that the genetic fidnings litteraly put only 2% more of that Slav haplogroup into Herzegovians then they do in Albanians. You have around 9 we have around 12%. You have only 2% less then me. Do you not understand that? While the East and West Slav peoples like Poles or Ukranians have around 60 and 50%. That's not a clear difference to you? Not to mention 500 years of Turk rule for you and us both, where you can't tell me some people didn't mix. That's just common sense. The study clearly states "two geneticly distinct groups. south slavs have this difference due to the contributions of genes from the original balkan inhabitants". This is scientific fact now proven. What else can be said here? I don't know how else to explain this to you for you to get it. It's always been known, and said by so many sources, that Bosnians and Serbs and etc. are more Slavic in LANGUAGE and historical factors and traditions (less so the Bosnians cuz we have islamic traditions and culture mixed with slav and ancient pagan ones), then they are in BLOOD AND ETHNICITY. I'm sorry if you can't accept this. And I'm not claiming this means we're Illyrians or anything. I'm just simpl stating that fact. Most South Slavs are proud to be Slavs they are proud of their history so it has nothing to do with denying anything.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 15, 2008 5:21:20 GMT -5
quit patronising people dude, never seen anyone take genetics so seriously, its not even a reliable science, many respected scholars have snubbed as being a basis for any solid conclusions, it simply makes things more complicated than it actually solves anything,
i know there has been illyrian tribes everywhere, but the main nucleous(or rather where they retreated to) is present day alb territories, dalmat coast, in ulpiana and the epirus, as time went on the tribes that settled more inland, assimilated and many moved towards the coast, you can see traces of this by the footprints they have left over time which shows a moviment towards coastal areas
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