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Post by fazlinho on Dec 7, 2008 16:58:17 GMT -5
yeah, Yugoslavia was falling apart, so asking them they they for some reason be part of BiH where they would be outnumbered by us and Croats, is as asking us to be in Milosevices Yugoslavia where we would be dominated by Serbs.. To me a 43 - 33 - 17 % ratio is well different than a 85 - 15% one. Not at all. Just look at ex-urss. Just look at Czechoslovakia. Nothing like that happened in those years in those countries. I think good of him a lot, I never said anything about competence. Oh please. Than your parents (as mine) are extremely stupid. It's the referendum that gave independence, don't you remember? If it was that obvious, why would people go to vote to die?? No, it was not obvious. No one thought that would happen. Killing others in europe in the 90s shouldn't be the norm
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Post by manijak on Dec 7, 2008 17:07:12 GMT -5
In January 1992, Portuguese diplomat José Cutileiro drafted a plan, later known as the Lisbon Agreement, that would turn Bosnia into a triethnic cantonal state. Initially, all three sides signed up to the agreement; Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats. Some two weeks later, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, supposedly encouraged by the then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is the SAME system we have TODAY.
3 years of fighting for absolutely nothing.
All because Alija made a really really dumb decision, because he ASSUMED things,(support from USA) or maybe the religious side made him do it.
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Post by bob1389 on Dec 7, 2008 17:22:42 GMT -5
How is it a lie? His organization recruited to the Waffen SS He was NOT in Handzar, he was not in "Mladi Bosnjaci" he was in the organization "Mladi Muslimani" that was an anti-fascist and anti--communist organization. Firstly, the article doesn't say he was in the Handzar BUT that he helped recruit for them by way of joining an organisation which acted as a feeder to the Handzar ("Mladi Bosnjaci") Secondly, I am using the term Mladi Bosnjaci as to not offend Bosniaks with the M-word, nor do I want my posts editted by yourself, Mr big Bosniak Patriot. (I will also be using 'Bosniak Patriot' from now on instead of the B-word that rythmes with Alija) Lastly, as long as you keep avoiding, ignoring and denying the Islamic fundamentalist aspects of Izetbegovic rise to power then you can simply forget any sort of reconciliation. Youtube videos are littered with Alija prancing around with the mujahideen fighters. Even during the war instead of going to Western Leaders Alija spent most of his time in the Arab world - appealing for help and spreading the word of jihad. The fact that so many of you are blatantly brainwashed is replusive.
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Post by fazlinho on Dec 7, 2008 17:27:02 GMT -5
In January 1992, Portuguese diplomat José Cutileiro drafted a plan, later known as the Lisbon Agreement, that would turn Bosnia into a triethnic cantonal state. Initially, all three sides signed up to the agreement; Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats. Some two weeks later, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, supposedly encouraged by the then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is the SAME system we have TODAY. 3 years of fighting for absolutely nothing. All because Alija made a really really dumb decision, because he ASSUMED things,(support from USA) or maybe the religious side made him do it. You judge the past knowing the outcome, you have to understand it was the people that wanted independence. It was a national referendum, not Alija's decision, that made BiH come true. We have the system we have today because the USA treated bombings, if not, today Serbia would have 1.4 million citizens more. Bob, dream as much as you want.
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Post by manijak on Dec 7, 2008 17:32:11 GMT -5
First, the president and him only calls a referendum.
Second, he did it after there was a peaceful solution where the country would be split up as it is currently today. He did it knowing we had a weak army, he gave weapons back as you said, and he ASSUMED we would get US support. It just seems crazy dumb.
But this is why bob's reasoning adds up. He simply can't be that dumb, Zimmerman never told him there would be definite help,s o he must have done it due to the religious angle. The crazy fundamentalists offered help and he was closer to his dream of what BIH would be.
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Post by tito on Dec 7, 2008 17:37:11 GMT -5
The guy brought in Islamists-militants. So yes, he him self was probably fundamentalist.
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Post by fazlinho on Dec 7, 2008 17:38:19 GMT -5
First, the president and him only calls a referendum. Wrong again, it was organized not on state level but by various non-governmental organizations. You have more than 2 millions crazy dumb people in Bosnia. The Serbs being the only rational ones because they rationally killed people who disagreed with them. roflmao...I assume Croats are also islamic fundamentalists as they did the very same thing
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Post by manijak on Dec 7, 2008 17:48:13 GMT -5
The Croats had very little position to negotiate, there just isn't that many of them. They had no choice but to join us.
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Post by fazlinho on Dec 7, 2008 17:56:29 GMT -5
They had a LOT of position to negotiate. If they sided with Serbs, we'd stay in Yugo as not even 50% of the population would have voted for independence. As more than 60% did, we got it.
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Post by manijak on Dec 7, 2008 18:01:57 GMT -5
That's not true. Croats hate Serbs, that was not an option. Bosniaks on the whole though were much more pro-yugoslav. So if they decided, no way Croats would want to say.
Point being though, Alija declined an option where there would be a peaceful resolution, and then had to call a referendum.
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Post by fazlinho on Dec 7, 2008 18:13:28 GMT -5
That still means for a reason or another, they wanted to split.
And you blame him for not agreeing to part Bosnia up? I really don't, that's what I would expect from him.
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Post by kapetan on Dec 7, 2008 18:42:22 GMT -5
Alija was too soft if anything.
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Post by theblackswans on Dec 7, 2008 22:19:17 GMT -5
Was Alija really in Handzar or? Why do you even ask? Fuck I know these people are stupid but serious?
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Post by theblackswans on Dec 7, 2008 22:22:20 GMT -5
I did not know about this. If he gave the weapons of the TO, over to the "JNA" then he was truly incapable of governance, seen as he then held a referendum without even TO weapons to defend. Both points are true Izetbegovic did everything he could to avoid war with the Serbs, it just made the cetniks lick there chops even more to know they would be fighting a defenseless enemy. They could get a real hard on killing and raping without any opposition. Fucking bloodthirsty criminals.
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Post by theblackswans on Dec 7, 2008 22:29:04 GMT -5
Alija was too soft if anything. Agree to the point of him thinking he could appease the Serbs and get an independant state without bloodshed. He should have seen what was happening in Croatia and have known what he and Bosnia was in for. The Croats didn't turn over the TO weapons and besieged Serbian bases as well as were arming as fast as they could. They also had a nominal airforce and Bosnia should have done so similarly under threat of death to the JNA soldiers (and there Serbian masters). Izetbegovic fucked up bigtime.
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Post by SKORIC on Dec 8, 2008 1:18:03 GMT -5
I was getting interested in this discussion untill blackswans came in and wrecked it with his swearing and talking shit.
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