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Post by alb12345 on Mar 10, 2009 10:02:37 GMT -5
So many claim the fustanella as they own.The fustanella is typically used from those who spoke albanian language, and not only the fustanella but the whole look was typically albanian.
Lord Byron: The Arnauts, or Albanese, struck me forcibly by their resemblance to the Highlanders of Scotland, in dress, figure and manner of living. The kilt, though white; the spare, active form; their dialect, Celtic in sound, and their habits, all carried me back to Motven. No nation are so detested and dreaded by their neigbours as the Albanese; the Greeks hardly regard them as Chrystians, or the Turkd as moslems; and in fact they are a mixture of both, and sometimes neither. Their habits are predatory; all are armed; and the red-shawled Arnauts, the Montenegrins, Chimariots and Gedges are treacherous; the others differ somewhat in garb, and essentially in character.
Memoir of a Campaign with the Ottoman Army in Egypt, from February to July 1800:
The troops which are raised in the Morea, Epirus, Albania, and Macedonia are known under the general apellation of Arnauts. They are warlike people.They retain much of the ferocity of the Spartans, of whom they are said to be the descendants: their dress would favour that supposition, from its resemblance to the the tunic. They wear a breastplate of silver and a species of armour covers their legs; many of them walk in sandals; the fore part of the head, as far as the middle of the crown is shaved, and only a tuft of hair hangs loose on the back part of the head; a red sjull-cap of cloth comes far over their eyebrows, and gives them a fierce look. Their fire-arms are in general beautifully ornamented in silver and gold. The Arnauts have the reputation of being very courageous; they certainly carry with them a very exalted notion of their own prowess; and, as they are commanded by officers from their nation whom they respect.
(He call Albania only the territory of Alpes mountain which I think the name Albanian come from and later got used for all of us. Arbani (Arberesh was the way we called ourself) Arvanites and Arnauts are just the derivates of that name.
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Post by libofshe on Mar 11, 2009 7:22:45 GMT -5
alrite, here's the albanian fustan, in all its glory and at some point in time, greek saw he albanians wearing their traditional kilts and one of them turned to the rest and said....'Guys, check this out, WE can go shorter!!!!!' here are the results....
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 11, 2009 7:25:24 GMT -5
From a warrior kilt to a slvtty dress, lol.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 9:07:59 GMT -5
One question...is he an Arnaoud wearing fustanela? It is a depiction of Digenis Akritas in about 1100 A.D. And one other...have you seen in any byzantine icon guys wearing trousers...like the gheg and romanian ones?
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 9:33:35 GMT -5
thats not a fustanelle. Just because its a gown like doesnt mean it is. Most societies until recently had men wearing something like that. It was usually a paded cover placed under the armor.
Patrinos Aithiopos, whats up with this:
the modern Palace Guard (Evzonoi) are essentially Albanian costume (Mpiris 1997, 288 n. 2).
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 9:43:11 GMT -5
Am I blind?
Its easy to recognise the Roman origin of this dress, surived under Byzantium mostly as a military costume.Just see the icons of orthodox military saints. Thats why the byzantine influenced Tosks wear this dress and not the ""pure"" albo northerners...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 9:44:53 GMT -5
Patrinos Aithiopos, whats up with this: the modern Palace Guard (Evzonoi) are essentially Albanian costume (Mpiris 1997, 288 n. 2).Ore tourkalvane...he is an Arvanitis...a serious one though...they also have their own little myths...thats fine...the historic truth its another thing. PS.And because I know your love about classic studies ;D, "Aithiopos" is the genitive form...the vocative is "Aithiops"
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 10:42:02 GMT -5
Son of an Aithiops.
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 10:45:19 GMT -5
Btw, Tosks are not the only ones who wear it. Until the 18th century or so Ghegs wore it predominantly as well, it was eventually marginalized by the pants thought in the 19th. Look at the topic "Old Pics of Albanians" to see images of Ghegs wearing it. This was a universal Alb attire.
And you cant recognize the clothing from images. Find me sources, descriptions of dress, in Byzantine/Classical sources which point to such an attire and give an identity to it. Unless you can do that, Ill rely not just on Biris, but on the word of Gerolymatos among the various other sources which openly state that it was something that came into Greece via Albanian migrations.
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 10:46:34 GMT -5
Libofsha, please dont ruin the thread with the gay looking Greek one. Look at those fukin stockings for god's sake... and the fluffyness... The real fustanelle was like the one below. It was dirty, it drupped down... it was the dress of a warrior not a pufter...
That image you posted looks more like the dress a catholic school girl would wear... and I appreciate it more on them.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 11, 2009 10:52:34 GMT -5
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Post by libofshe on Mar 11, 2009 11:01:22 GMT -5
Libofsha, please dont ruin the thread with the gay looking Greek one
yeah, what's up with that tuft of fluff in the back of their knees, that's just making a mockery of the warrior attire.
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Mar 11, 2009 11:14:40 GMT -5
Fustanella is pure albanian word which means dress that covering all body.
Fus+tan+ella Fus=Cover (wear) tan=all body (everything) Ella=She's good friend of mine
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 11:14:54 GMT -5
Stop posting paintings or what ever from 18-19-20th centuries with fustanellades Albos because I can do the same and with more succes... Melty,someone to check the "origin" and history of this dress must go back to medieval ages. I wonder if there is any primary sourse talking about this style among Albanians. You should now better...even if I bet that there isn't any. I only know one reference by the western Simon Fitzsimons: Itinerary from Ireland to the Holy Land in 1322. "For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner." www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1322.htmlIn these year Arvanites hadn't even passed the today borders... As for the Greek case, it is well recorded that Akrites and Apelates wore this type of dress and there are written sources. For example. In Ptochoprodomic poems(written by Theodoros Prodromos in 12th century) there is a passage that match with Digenis deciption in the byzantine ceramics found so far. It says: " kai tas podheas ochiros pexas eis to zonari"that means " fastened his kilts up firmly in his belt" Poemes Prodromiques en grec vulgaire, edites par D.C. Hesseling et Pernot, Amsterdam,1910,III,400. Call it "podhea", call it ala veneziana "fustanela" its the same thing, spread under Byzantium in the whole empire and survived among most of mainlanders Greeks and Tosks. PS.And by the way...what happened to Ghegs and changed their dress and choosed these weird trousers? Read this. www.scribd.com/doc/9647495/NOTOPOULOS-Akritas-Ikonography-on-Byzantine-Pottery-Hesperia-331964
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 12:17:41 GMT -5
'dress' just means manner of clothing... not actually a 'dress' in the womans fashion sense. And in the time of the Irish travellers there was no Tosk/Gheg dichotomy... just various clans...
And Ill check out the podheas statement. Ill look at my library for any books on diogenes and translations... Btw, the Ptochoprodromic are renown for the difficulty of translation and interpretational nature of many of them. Its hard for people to translate ALOT of the terms used for clothes and jewelry for instance. Read Margaret Alexiou's Greek After Antiquity.
If the case was as you say, why is is that Gerolymatos actually cites primary sources of the Greek Revolutionary period which show the fustanella as coming down from the northern areas in southern Albania or Epirus in general. In fact, in some parts merchants who made them in that area were especially called in, and it was the Arvanite marchants (I posted all this a long while back in another topic, the name of which I forgot) were specifically sought after for skill in this...
Hell even travelers of the period mentioned this as having come from the north, that it was not all too native.
Like I said, Albanians in general used the fustan until differentiation in clothing started around the
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 12:37:55 GMT -5
Ptochoprodromic poems are very interesting for a 21st century Greek to read them, because even if its about 800 years old it seems really "fresh".
Its not bad for the "albanian pride" to accept the byzantine origin of this style of dress. Don't you accept that you ,like it or not ,were for the most time,espesially in the south, under Konstantinoupolis?
And when Tosks and Ghegs diversified?
PS.What did this westerner guy I've quoted above mean when he said that Albos are like Greeks in dress?
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Mar 11, 2009 12:50:06 GMT -5
albanians wear fustanela just for traditional activities such folkclor dress not for everyday
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 13:18:02 GMT -5
Ptochoprodromic poems are very interesting for a 21st century Greek to read them, because even if its about 800 years old it seems really "fresh". Its not bad for the "albanian pride" to accept the byzantine origin of this style of dress. Don't you accept that you ,like it or not ,were for the most time,espesially in the south, under Konstantinoupolis? And when Tosks and Ghegs diversified? PS.What did this westerner guy I've quoted above mean when he said that Albos are like Greeks in dress? 1. Im not arguing semantics. Im simply discussing the Fustanelle association as far as the 18th century. If you want to commit mental masturbation go ahead and look for it as far as the 11-13th. Most societies didnt wear pants until recently, and the Byzantine army itself was heavily influenced by the clothing worn by its ethnic military members. In the Roman period, there is absolutely no mention of any kilt resembling the fustanella... ever... none.... nor is there any mention in classical Greek sources. If it originated in Byzantium.. maybe, however one reference to a kilt to an anatolian figure (and considering Anatolian Greeks didnt even wear the fustanella shows what?Not to mention that Akritas was himself mixed Arab...) That still goes beyond the scope of the 18th century association. To the mind of those picking it up and to those who came upon it this was associated with Albs, as Gerolymatos has pointed out: there was a replication of the Arnaut clothing, particularly those of the Kacaks, hajduts etc. etc. 2. I would argue Gheg/Tosk dichotomies do not even remotely begin until atleasty the 16th century... if not later. There have been strong arguments that Arvanitika has strong elements of Gheg in it. 3. By dress he means 'regular clothing'. The 'type of dress' just means 'what they wore'. It has no bearing on an actual 'dress'. In Latin the words used are 'eisdem habitu et gestu in omnibus conformes'. Habitu means something like ' in clothing, wear', while gestu means something like 'in habits, mannerisms,'.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 11, 2009 13:55:04 GMT -5
1. Im not arguing semantics. Im simply discussing the Fustanelle association as far as the 18th century. If you want to commit mental masturbation go ahead and look for it as far as the 11-13th. Most societies didnt wear pants until recently, and the Byzantine army itself was heavily influenced by the clothing worn by its ethnic military members. In the Roman period, there is absolutely no mention of any kilt resembling the fustanella... ever... none.... nor is there any mention in classical Greek sources. If it originated in Byzantium.. maybe, however one reference to a kilt to an anatolian figure (and considering Anatolian Greeks didnt even wear the fustanella shows what?Not to mention that Akritas was himself mixed Arab...) That still goes beyond the scope of the 18th century association. To the mind of those picking it up and to those who came upon it this was associated with Albs, as Gerolymatos has pointed out: there was a replication of the Arnaut clothing, particularly those of the Kacaks, hajduts etc. etc. I really don't understand what you expect to find in primary latin or byzantine greek sourses??...a reference of an " arnaoud fustanella" ?? What makes you think that Albanians of 15-16-17 centuries had the cultural "power" to spread this style to other local ethnicities like Vlachs, Slavs, and almost the whole Greek population of the mainland, even in south Macedonia where the albo element never reached? 2. I would argue Gheg/Tosk dichotomies do not even remotely begin until atleasty the 16th century... if not later. There have been strong arguments that Arvanitika has strong elements of Gheg in it. How do you explain the diversification of these two groups' clothing...and we see a big difference...black and white... 3. By dress he means 'regular clothing'. The 'type of dress' just means 'what they wore'. It has no bearing on an actual 'dress'. In Latin the words used are 'eisdem habitu et gestu in omnibus conformes'. Habitu means something like 'clothing, wear', while gestu means something like 'habits, mannerisms,'. "Habitu" means "clothing,wear" yes or not? I really don't understand you? Maybe my average english?
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 11, 2009 14:09:14 GMT -5
Gheg and Tosk differentiations dont start for a long while, even in terms of clothing. What occurred in the 18th century was more of a shift amoing the general population one way and the other. Both have the same clothes, so you can find Gheg dress among Tosks and you find the fustanella among the Ghegs as well... all that occurred was a shift. Both are interchangable. So youll find pants being worn by Tosks as well. (if you watch the movie Time of the Comet, which has pretty realistic depictions of clothing styles then, youll notice that until the wedding scene, only one member of the group wears a fustanelle, the rest wear different kinds of wear). Nothing was universal.
Habitu means clothing, yes. I thought you interpreted the translation dress as to mean a literal 'dress' (as in what a fustanella looks like).
Funny... trying to make me look dumb or what? I said something recognizable to such a kilt, that was recognized as a specific kind of wear. Roman soldiers didnt wear anything like it. They wore a padding under the armor that was something like a gown, same with the hoplites. The armor itself had these straight hard leather hangings around the leg which were meant to protect the thigh while allowing the soldier to move. This is what you guys have often portrayed as a fustanella in showing the Byzantine military depictions. There is no such description of clothing. Greeks and Romans both gave heavy description of clothing styles since for them it was a marker of the given population. Especially when contrasting themselves to others (such as the pants wearing Barbarian).
I wasnt talking about the 16-17. I was talking about the era around the 19th century, when the adoption of the fustanella by Peloponessian Greeks is actually attested by British travel sources, who attributed this style of clothing to Albanians.
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