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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 8, 2008 20:11:46 GMT -5
"Are you saying all states that came into existence before 1995 are valid and those after 1995 are invalid?" What r u talking about? How is the existence of RS or its potential independence fundamentally different from the existence of a united Bosnian state?
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Demonel
Amicus
I am Jack's regained insanity.
Posts: 833
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Post by Demonel on Sept 8, 2008 20:17:53 GMT -5
Damn you are illogical. You can't compare a country with it's part, be it identependent or not.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 8, 2008 20:29:59 GMT -5
Damn you are illogical. You can't compare a country with it's part, be it identependent or not. Illogical? Can you explain? Do you understand that a 'country' is merely a concept and that borders are merely conceptual and don't exist in reality? If the Bosnian government can break away a chunk of physical land called 'Bosnia' from a greater conceptual entity of physical land called 'Yugoslavia' then I don't know why 'RS' doing it from 'Bosnia' would be illogical and not consistent.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 8, 2008 20:30:54 GMT -5
All you're doing is changing concepts in the heads of people that are inherently subjective and not effecting any feature of the land in reality.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 8, 2008 20:50:20 GMT -5
So was the Federation, Bosnia as a whole , Croatia , Serbia , and states in general. Its pretty funny to single out a little tribal mafia called the RS government for scrutiny alone. Tribal mafia?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 8, 2008 22:22:45 GMT -5
So was the Federation, Bosnia as a whole , Croatia , Serbia , and states in general. Its pretty funny to single out a little tribal mafia called the RS government for scrutiny alone. Tribal mafia? The RS government. A group of individual thugs that prey off their own populace by enforcing propaganda about inherent virtue in Serb tribalism. Of course this tribalism isn't exclusive to only Serbs.
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Post by zgembo on Sept 8, 2008 23:13:55 GMT -5
There is no inherent virtue, we are not that far removed from reality. There is only the fear of domination and rule by Muslims, and that fear is present among the population (not promoted by the government) at least since the war ended.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 8, 2008 23:42:02 GMT -5
Any leftist, liberal, neoliberal, or simply employee of CIA who is critisizing the Bosnian Serbs as thugs, can freely move to saudi arabia and spare us the lecture.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 9, 2008 0:47:40 GMT -5
There is no inherent virtue, we are not that far removed from reality. There is only the fear of domination and rule by Muslims, and that fear is present among the population (not promoted by the government) at least since the war ended. Sure, I understand the practicality of the position. I found it interesting that you implicitly acknowledged the irrationality of the nationalism the government thugs in RS promote. The honesty shows integrity on your part, at least in my opinion. But that fear gives the RS governement officials more support and excuse to extort wealth from Serbs in Bosnia in the hopes of protecting them from integration with Muslims. Ex post facto its hard to churn back the clocks and the position of fearing one and other is predictable and understandable to a degree. However, the roots and beginnings of all of it are based on irrationalities.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 9, 2008 0:50:23 GMT -5
Any leftist, liberal, neoliberal, or simply employee of CIA who is critisizing the Bosnian Serbs as thugs, can freely move to saudi arabia and spare us the lecture. I don't know if this was meant for me, probably was. I'm not a lefist , liberal , and definately not an employee of some government organization. I didn't call the general population of Serbs in Bosnia thugs, just the individuals in power exploiting them.
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Post by kapetan on Sept 9, 2008 1:10:19 GMT -5
There is no inherent virtue, we are not that far removed from reality. There is only the fear of domination and rule by Muslims, and that fear is present among the population (not promoted by the government) at least since the war ended. If you guys only calmed the hell down in 1991 and 1992 you would've seen THERE WAS NO PLANNED domination of you by us. You just got turned off by the very idea of being in a country that we are a majority in, that the president of might be a Muslim. It's like you just couldn't stomach the very idea of anything non-serb all of a sudden. Not all of you of course but a large number. Never even gave it a chance. Assumed we're all blood thirsty animals and then all you did was force someone who wasn't even remotely ready for war as a nation, to fight back. Even if there was small numbers of so called radicals, they existed on all sides and we all knew those are idiots. You jumped the f**kin' gun. You convinced yourself of it, and ironicly NOW is when we really HATE you. NOW. You MADE your own worst enemy that you didnt have before in Yugoslavia. Bosnia was always multiethnic in Yugoslavia and people got along FINE, without even thinking what who was. In the war everyone was on SERB s**t and CROAT s**t, we were the only ones on some BOSNIA s**t. A multi ethnic country where we could all be Bosnians of whatever kind. This was our goal, weather you belive it or not. But then the fear tactics started. I mean honestly what the f**k was a nation of people with no weapons going to do to you? For no reason we just woke up and decided to slaughter you all? Use you as slaves? Cmon, man don't be ridiculous. it was fear tactics and you know it. propaganda about fundementalist and ustasa states. plz dont post pics of dipshits doing "radical muslim things" or anything like that since we could all find such things about the other side. those small examples dont define the other millions of people.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 9, 2008 1:34:28 GMT -5
The RS government. A group of individual thugs that prey off their own populace by enforcing propaganda about inherent virtue in Serb tribalism. Of course this tribalism isn't exclusive to only Serbs. What the hell are you on about? Have you ever been to Republika Srpska (or the Balkans for that matter)? If you guys only calmed the hell down in 1991 and 1992 you would've seen THERE WAS NO PLANNED domination of you by us. You just got turned off by the very idea of being in a country that we are a majority in, that the president of might be a Muslim. It's like you just couldn't stomach the very idea of anything non-serb all of a sudden. Not all of you of course but a large number. Never even gave it a chance. Assumed we're all blood thirsty animals and then all you did was force someone who wasn't even remotely ready for war as a nation, to fight back. Even if there was small numbers of so called radicals, they existed on all sides and we all knew those are idiots. You jumped the f**kin' gun. You convinced yourself of it, and ironicly NOW is when we really HATE you. NOW. You MADE your own worst enemy that you didnt have before in Yugoslavia. Bosnia was always multiethnic in Yugoslavia and people got along FINE, without even thinking what who was. In the war everyone was on SERB s**t and CROAT s**t, we were the only ones on some BOSNIA s**t. A multi ethnic country where we could all be Bosnians of whatever kind. This was our goal, weather you belive it or not. But then the fear tactics started. I mean honestly what the f**k was a nation of people with no weapons going to do to you? For no reason we just woke up and decided to slaughter you all? Use you as slaves? Cmon, man don't be ridiculous. it was fear tactics and you know it. propaganda about fundementalist and ustasa states. plz dont post pics of dips**ts doing "radical muslim things" or anything like that since we could all find such things about the other side. those small examples dont define the other millions of people. I doubt the Muslim populace has the insight or foresight to understand Izebegovic and his plans so I agree that Muslims in general had no plans of domination at that time. Izebegovic on the other hand outlined his plans for domination in his "Islamic Declaration."
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Post by kapetan on Sept 9, 2008 2:08:13 GMT -5
The RS government. A group of individual thugs that prey off their own populace by enforcing propaganda about inherent virtue in Serb tribalism. Of course this tribalism isn't exclusive to only Serbs. What the hell are you on about? Have you ever been to Republika Srpska (or the Balkans for that matter)? If you guys only calmed the hell down in 1991 and 1992 you would've seen THERE WAS NO PLANNED domination of you by us. You just got turned off by the very idea of being in a country that we are a majority in, that the president of might be a Muslim. It's like you just couldn't stomach the very idea of anything non-serb all of a sudden. Not all of you of course but a large number. Never even gave it a chance. Assumed we're all blood thirsty animals and then all you did was force someone who wasn't even remotely ready for war as a nation, to fight back. Even if there was small numbers of so called radicals, they existed on all sides and we all knew those are idiots. You jumped the f**kin' gun. You convinced yourself of it, and ironicly NOW is when we really HATE you. NOW. You MADE your own worst enemy that you didnt have before in Yugoslavia. Bosnia was always multiethnic in Yugoslavia and people got along FINE, without even thinking what who was. In the war everyone was on SERB s**t and CROAT s**t, we were the only ones on some BOSNIA s**t. A multi ethnic country where we could all be Bosnians of whatever kind. This was our goal, weather you belive it or not. But then the fear tactics started. I mean honestly what the f**k was a nation of people with no weapons going to do to you? For no reason we just woke up and decided to slaughter you all? Use you as slaves? Cmon, man don't be ridiculous. it was fear tactics and you know it. propaganda about fundementalist and ustasa states. plz dont post pics of dips**ts doing "radical muslim things" or anything like that since we could all find such things about the other side. those small examples dont define the other millions of people. I doubt the Muslim populace has the insight or foresight to understand Izebegovic and his plans so I agree that Muslims in general had no plans of domination at that time. Izebegovic on the other hand outlined his plans for domination in his "Islamic Declaration." Really now? Because most of us consider him too soft most of the time . He constantly stopped offensives when he heard anything about any civilians being harmed or whatever. Probly cuz he wanted to keep that "clean boy" image with the International community which sided with us. Eiher way judging by actions, both karadzic and sertain Croat leaders in Bosnia were way more radical. But lets even say he WAS diobolical and evil, it's not he who got punished for it is it now? It was taken out on the PEOPLE. As for the Islamic Decleration, a book written in 1970, my blood boils when people bring it up cuz its been debunked SO MANY TIMES. The book had NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING IN THE LEAST to do with Bosnia. People who have neer actualy READ THE BOOK bring it up cuz they heard about it. I know perfectly well which part you're speaking of. The part about "Islamic crap cant coexist with others etc". That kind of thing. I'm sorry to tell you that was such a easy tool of propaganda and COMPLETLY out of context. Just bare with me here if you honestly have any interest in hearing me out. The “Islamic Declaration” is a general treaty upon Islam and politics, trying to conciliate progress and Islamic tradition, and in which Bosnia is not even mentioned. The main idea is that the Qur'an allows modernization, but that there would be no modernization without roots in the Qur'an. To this end Izetbegovic cites kemalist Turkey as a negative example of root loss, ending in economic stagnation and analphabetism, and Japan as a positive example, in which keeping its own culture allowed modernization and economic growth.The issue of an Islamic government Izetbegovic affirms that an Islamic government is not possible but in the context of an Islamic society, which can exist only when the absolute majority of the population is constituted by sincere and practising Muslims. On these basis, it resulted impossible to theorize an Islamic government in Bosnia, where Muslims, even only by name, were a minority. «The Islamic order can be realized only in the nations in which Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this social premise, the Islamic order fall to be mere power (for the lack of the second element, the Islamic society) and can revert to tyranny. Non-Muslim minorities in an Islamic state should be granted of religious freedom and every protection. Muslim minorities in non-Islamic majority countries should be loyal to every social duty and every norm imposed by the community, on condition that they don’t offend Islam and Muslims, and of being able to dispose of religious freedom and of a normali life». Evidently, only this last sentence is directly applicable to the Bosnian situation. Thus, where Izetbegovic affirms (being usually cited apart from the context by the Serbian propaganda) that «there’s no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions» he refers to those countries in which good Muslims constituting the majority of the population can not accept the imposition of non-Islamic institutions.
Other thesis of Izetbegovic sentenced as “fundamentalist” are simple affirmations of orthodox faith, in Noel Malcolm’s opinion: the fact that an Islamic state should ban alcoholism, pornography and prostitution; the vision of Islam not only as private believing but as a whole lifestyle, with a social and political dimension; the transcendence of national borders by the brotherhood of the whole Islamic believer’s world, the umma.All you have to do to confirm this is look it up in the actual book which im sure can be found online. More about it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Islamic_Declaration
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 9, 2008 2:18:56 GMT -5
Any leftist, liberal, neoliberal, or simply employee of CIA who is critisizing the Bosnian Serbs as thugs, can freely move to saudi arabia and spare us the lecture. I don't know if this was meant for me, probably was. I'm not a lefist , liberal , and definately not an employee of some government organization. I didn't call the general population of Serbs in Bosnia thugs, just the individuals in power exploiting them. Alright. How do you explain the fact that from very similar national stock (bosnians, croats, serbs), about 99.99% of the negative international press has been towards Serbs? And if we assume (which ofcourse is false), that indeed the worst leaders were the Serbs, HOW CAN THAT BE EXPLAINED, USING FUNDAMENTAL FACTS? The difference is clearly the religion, all political decisions prior, due to, and after this. (for the retards here, "this" = decision to become orthodox) So, would you imply that, this part of SerboCroat branch of Slavs of the balkans (orthodox serbs), whose past leaders didnt kiss turkish or austrian or catholics butss, TODAY have the tendency to produce THUG leaders, or at least MORE thug leaders than the rest (croats, muslims)? think about it. (then go to saudi arabia).
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 9, 2008 3:33:43 GMT -5
Really now? Because most of us consider him too soft most of the time . He constantly stopped offensives when he heard anything about any civilians being harmed or whatever. Probly cuz he wanted to keep that "clean boy" image with the International community which sided with us. Eiher way judging by actions, both karadzic and sertain Croat leaders in Bosnia were way more radical. But lets even say he WAS diobolical and evil, it's not he who got punished for it is it now? It was taken out on the PEOPLE. As for the Islamic Decleration, a book written in 1970, my blood boils when people bring it up cuz its been debunked SO MANY TIMES. The book had NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING IN THE LEAST to do with Bosnia. People who have neer actualy READ THE BOOK bring it up cuz they heard about it. I know perfectly well which part you're speaking of. The part about "Islamic crap cant coexist with others etc". That kind of thing. I'm sorry to tell you that was such a easy tool of propaganda and COMPLETLY out of context. Just bare with me here if you honestly have any interest in hearing me out. The “Islamic Declaration” is a general treaty upon Islam and politics, trying to conciliate progress and Islamic tradition, and in which Bosnia is not even mentioned. The main idea is that the Qur'an allows modernization, but that there would be no modernization without roots in the Qur'an. To this end Izetbegovic cites kemalist Turkey as a negative example of root loss, ending in economic stagnation and analphabetism, and Japan as a positive example, in which keeping its own culture allowed modernization and economic growth.The issue of an Islamic government Izetbegovic affirms that an Islamic government is not possible but in the context of an Islamic society, which can exist only when the absolute majority of the population is constituted by sincere and practising Muslims. On these basis, it resulted impossible to theorize an Islamic government in Bosnia, where Muslims, even only by name, were a minority. «The Islamic order can be realized only in the nations in which Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this social premise, the Islamic order fall to be mere power (for the lack of the second element, the Islamic society) and can revert to tyranny. Non-Muslim minorities in an Islamic state should be granted of religious freedom and every protection. Muslim minorities in non-Islamic majority countries should be loyal to every social duty and every norm imposed by the community, on condition that they don’t offend Islam and Muslims, and of being able to dispose of religious freedom and of a normali life». Evidently, only this last sentence is directly applicable to the Bosnian situation. Thus, where Izetbegovic affirms (being usually cited apart from the context by the Serbian propaganda) that «there’s no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions» he refers to those countries in which good Muslims constituting the majority of the population can not accept the imposition of non-Islamic institutions.
Other thesis of Izetbegovic sentenced as “fundamentalist” are simple affirmations of orthodox faith, in Noel Malcolm’s opinion: the fact that an Islamic state should ban alcoholism, pornography and prostitution; the vision of Islam not only as private believing but as a whole lifestyle, with a social and political dimension; the transcendence of national borders by the brotherhood of the whole Islamic believer’s world, the umma.All you have to do to confirm this is look it up in the actual book which im sure can be found online. More about it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Islamic_Declaration Stop trying to bullshit me.
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Post by kapetan on Sept 9, 2008 3:40:29 GMT -5
Really now? Because most of us consider him too soft most of the time . He constantly stopped offensives when he heard anything about any civilians being harmed or whatever. Probly cuz he wanted to keep that "clean boy" image with the International community which sided with us. Eiher way judging by actions, both karadzic and sertain Croat leaders in Bosnia were way more radical. But lets even say he WAS diobolical and evil, it's not he who got punished for it is it now? It was taken out on the PEOPLE. As for the Islamic Decleration, a book written in 1970, my blood boils when people bring it up cuz its been debunked SO MANY TIMES. The book had NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING IN THE LEAST to do with Bosnia. People who have neer actualy READ THE BOOK bring it up cuz they heard about it. I know perfectly well which part you're speaking of. The part about "Islamic crap cant coexist with others etc". That kind of thing. I'm sorry to tell you that was such a easy tool of propaganda and COMPLETLY out of context. Just bare with me here if you honestly have any interest in hearing me out. The “Islamic Declaration” is a general treaty upon Islam and politics, trying to conciliate progress and Islamic tradition, and in which Bosnia is not even mentioned. The main idea is that the Qur'an allows modernization, but that there would be no modernization without roots in the Qur'an. To this end Izetbegovic cites kemalist Turkey as a negative example of root loss, ending in economic stagnation and analphabetism, and Japan as a positive example, in which keeping its own culture allowed modernization and economic growth.The issue of an Islamic government Izetbegovic affirms that an Islamic government is not possible but in the context of an Islamic society, which can exist only when the absolute majority of the population is constituted by sincere and practising Muslims. On these basis, it resulted impossible to theorize an Islamic government in Bosnia, where Muslims, even only by name, were a minority. «The Islamic order can be realized only in the nations in which Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this social premise, the Islamic order fall to be mere power (for the lack of the second element, the Islamic society) and can revert to tyranny. Non-Muslim minorities in an Islamic state should be granted of religious freedom and every protection. Muslim minorities in non-Islamic majority countries should be loyal to every social duty and every norm imposed by the community, on condition that they don’t offend Islam and Muslims, and of being able to dispose of religious freedom and of a normali life». Evidently, only this last sentence is directly applicable to the Bosnian situation. Thus, where Izetbegovic affirms (being usually cited apart from the context by the Serbian propaganda) that «there’s no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions» he refers to those countries in which good Muslims constituting the majority of the population can not accept the imposition of non-Islamic institutions.
Other thesis of Izetbegovic sentenced as “fundamentalist” are simple affirmations of orthodox faith, in Noel Malcolm’s opinion: the fact that an Islamic state should ban alcoholism, pornography and prostitution; the vision of Islam not only as private believing but as a whole lifestyle, with a social and political dimension; the transcendence of national borders by the brotherhood of the whole Islamic believer’s world, the umma.All you have to do to confirm this is look it up in the actual book which im sure can be found online. More about it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Islamic_Declaration Stop trying to bullshit me.What are you talking about? The article I posted is only confirmed by the text in the book. And that Alija was a pan-Islamist of sorts. At least at that time. Mentions Bosnia nowhere and nothing about anything to do with domination of Serbs or anyone else. In fact right there he's talking about Muslim backwardness and talking about it's time to be modern. And again he speaks of purely Muslim countries, and as for countries in which Muslims are a monority he says they should respect those cultures and laws. Lol So what exactly did I bulls**t about? Would I tell you to read the book knowing it would prove my post wrong? Where is the logic? EDIT: btw I'm not defending his views, since the book is full of religious crap, like all religous people come up with, but on no way is it a plan to destroy serbs, or anything with bosnia. In fact he contradicted half the stuff he wrote himself when he became president of BiH. Probly shows that his views changed somewhat from 1970 to 1992. As would anyones. People evolve. And lastly Alija is ONE person. Just like Karadzic. You're not a war criminal cuz Karadzic is.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 9, 2008 4:09:48 GMT -5
He clearly writes that Muslims and non Muslim institutions cannot peacefully coexist.
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Post by kapetan on Sept 9, 2008 4:12:34 GMT -5
He clearly writes that Muslims and non Muslim institutions cannot peacefully coexist. No. Izetbegovic affirms that an Islamic government is not possible but in the context of an Islamic society, which can exist only when the absolute majority of the population is constituted by sincere and practising Muslims. On these basis, it resulted impossible to theorize an Islamic government in Bosnia, where Muslims, even only by name, were a minority. «The Islamic order can be realized only in the nations in which Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this social premise, the Islamic order fall to be mere power (for the lack of the second element, the Islamic society) and can revert to tyranny. Non-Muslim minorities in an Islamic state should be granted of religious freedom and every protection. Muslim minorities in non-Islamic majority countries should be loyal to every social duty and every norm imposed by the community, on condition that they don’t offend Islam and Muslims, and of being able to dispose of religious freedom and of a normali life». Evidently, only this last sentence is directly applicable to the Bosnian situation. Thus, where Izetbegovic affirms (being usually cited apart from the context by the Serbian propaganda) that «there’s no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions» he refers to those countries in which good Muslims constituting the majority of the population can not accept the imposition of non-Islamic institutions. (Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.)[/u] It's a critisim and analyses of the world wide muslim world. Those things you are saying he was applying in countries where litteraly every person is a practising Muslim and they CANT ACCEPT other kind of systems whicch are foreign to them. Do you see what I am saying? What others of much more merit then me and you have said a 100 times? It was propaganda and taking s**t out of context. But also, I could take Karadzic quotes which are much worse btw and say "see! see! he was planning genocide he did it!!". And he actualy IS on trial for it. Alija never came close to doing anything close to that. In fact he tried to prevent it, probly for selfish reasons though not out of the goodness of his heart.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 9, 2008 5:41:30 GMT -5
It was propaganda and taking s**t out of context. Obviously not since Muslims in Bosnia are a minority and he became leader of Bosnian Muslims (3 quarters of them, anyway.) But also, I could take Karadzic quotes which are much worse btw and say "see! see! he was planning genocide he did it!!". No you cant. Alija never came close to doing anything close to that. Yes he was. Still, what goes on in the Hague tribunal cant be deemed as proof of guilt or evidence of crimes since the tribunal is a political tool created to weaken Serb (and pro Yugoslav) governments and armies.
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Post by zgembo on Sept 9, 2008 8:18:54 GMT -5
If you guys only calmed the hell down in 1991 and 1992 you would've seen THERE WAS NO PLANNED domination of you by us. You just got turned off by the very idea of being in a country that we are a majority in, that the president of might be a Muslim. It's like you just couldn't stomach the very idea of anything non-serb all of a sudden. Not all of you of course but a large number. Never even gave it a chance. Assumed we're all blood thirsty animals and then all you did was force someone who wasn't even remotely ready for war as a nation, to fight back. Heed your own advice. Bosnia didn't have to seperate from Yugoslavia either. Did Milosevic dominate Montenegro? I don't think so. The Muslims in Sandzak weren't exactly discriminated against either. You couldn't handle being in a country where we were dominant, so you are just a hypocrite. Oh, and check out some of the SDA political rallies before the war. If Serbs should not have been scared, you are not thinking hard enough. Pure Muslim nationalism was in full-force. If you had more weapons we all would have been annihilated.
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