rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 10:25:12 GMT -5
I agree Rex about the radicalism stuff. It's pure propaganda made by the Slavs. Of course Albanians might be more religious then from Ethnic Albania, but thats only due to the fact that we did not go through that brutal communist regime that destroyed religious beliefs (one of the best things Enver did btw.) The only thing Albanian muslims from Macedonia follow is not eating pork and maybe fasting. Other then that, we're fake muslims. not to get into religous anything but its confusing when an old timer meets Arif Mustafa and he has a cross on his chain ;D ;D ;D
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Post by L0gjICK on Jan 30, 2009 10:48:07 GMT -5
and Greece benefits doesn't have to worry about their history be stolen. their history ? a people with stolen history worried about it be being stolen .... ;D ;D haven't you noticed that people with stolen history are more vehemently crazed of it being stolen HEheheh I knew one of you Albos would bring that up. lol did you see the new Kosovars who are claiming they are "coming out of hiding" and become Christians again. Albanians crack me up sometimes.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 10:57:14 GMT -5
lol did you see the new Kosovars who are claiming they are "coming out of hiding" and become Christians again. Albanians crack me up sometimes.
thats their own personal choice ...
I know a few kosovars that converted here in USA ....known em for years ...nothing changed between us ,them and their own....
all my life I have met Albs from all over ...all I needed to know is that they are Alb and from where...never ask them how they pray or what color underwear they have on ....
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Post by L0gjICK on Jan 30, 2009 11:11:14 GMT -5
No I know it's a personal choice and I embrace anyone that looks religion as a personal matter. This article www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE48S07Y20080929?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0 makes it seem like there was something to be feared if they came out as Christians. And if you ask me, I think some of these conversions are due to some Kosovars thinking the Western World will sympathize more if they are Christians as opposed to Muslims. Its just funny to me that after our history that people still convert to improve their image/status.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 11:29:46 GMT -5
maybe you can call it religion for convenience ....I dont know .. I cant fathom changing religion ,only bcs I'm not really a practitioner of it 100% most are not...maybe I'm a 25%'er and thats on holidays at that besides how I am in this forum ;D...I can proudly say I'm a better person than most that go to mosque every friday or Christian to church on sundays or jews on their saturdays ...I cant seem to have any advantage or disadvantage to change religion I can understand some people losing respect over others that change only bcs they are insulting their ancestors of their past regardless of why and how ......or maybe are failures and blame their present religion and change ...I dont know..maybe its like a style change ....if the western world becomes Budist ....they follow the flow... ;D NOW ...BACK TO MACEDONIA ......soon enough we will be on the abortion topic ...
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 30, 2009 11:38:48 GMT -5
This isnt the first time such a thing has been proposed. Ismail Kadare has been proposing mass conversion to Catholic Christianity since the fall of Communism and many Kosovar intellectuals in Kosova considered mass conversion to Christianity as a way to get western Catholic support... but realized nobody would buy it.
Its something that Albanians weigh heavily today and has become a big topic among intelligentsia. Ardian Vehbiu brought it home when he said something along these lines: What kind of Muslim religious leader could expect the kind of welcoming Albanians gave Pope John Paul...
Im personally opposed to this...
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 30, 2009 11:51:21 GMT -5
I think Muslim Albanians should convert to Christianity, its so obvious they want to, especially the Bektashi, they revere Orthodox saints and still call themselves Muslims. What pompous assholes!
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Post by L0gjICK on Jan 30, 2009 11:55:05 GMT -5
I remember reading that many intellectuals from the Early 90's in Kosova were contemplating that very idea of conversion for Western Support. But in the end lets face it, Europe is much more secular then we like to believe and many countries in Europe have an increasing Muslim population. Not to mention Europe and America ended up bombing a Christian nation in Serbia and they have showed sympathy for the Muslim Bosnians as well. Today's Europe is not the same as yesterdays.
And I agree, conversion will not solve our problems. We are one of the poorest countries in Europe and we think that Christ magically fix our problems if we convert? Come on, instead of wasting time on this dubious matter we need to find ways to fix our real problems. Fix our school systems, our roads, infastructure, political corruption and so forth. Converting will not fix these problems pik!
However I do worry about the religious extremist to some degree. The Greeks that are brainwashing the Albanians in the south, the Italians that are donating money for churches in the north and the Arabs that are paying our people to wear head scarfs and prey in Mosques. And maybe one religion such as christianity would fix this problem, but I don't think so........
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 12:06:43 GMT -5
well said
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 30, 2009 12:08:48 GMT -5
Greeks are not brainwashing Albanians in the south, where the hell did u hear taht from? A lot of southern Albanians have been Orthodox for generations, like Korca, I can count the Muslims in Korca in one hand most of us are Orthodox Albanians like our ancestors and we're very proud of it even if some of us ar not religious.
btw a lot of Muslim Albs themselves want to convert no one's forcing them, i could care less, but the Bektashi Muslims are a diffrent story, they should be forced to be Ortho Albs. lol
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 12:16:19 GMT -5
mos i trazo Kolonjaret
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 30, 2009 12:34:41 GMT -5
This is the problem with governments deciding the fate of individuals. There will always be at least one group that doesn't get what it wants, therefore, sowing the seeds for perpetual conflict and providing justification for the governments to acquire more power and take more action.
That being said, the realpolitik of the situation will not allow Macedonia to separate into smaller states. The name Macedonia is already de facto recognized by most of the world. Neither Macedonia's neighbors have any real ground as far as changing its borders as they are beholden to other obligations. The Albanians acquired Kosovo, its highly unlikely that any further creation of Albanian states is in the cards. The West and other foreign powers are only interested in containing the flames of the regional conflicts. They believe a balance of power is the best way to achieve this and Macedonia, being multi-ethnic in make up, is that insurance policy.
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Post by epiroti on Jan 30, 2009 13:25:42 GMT -5
Exactly Arthur, The west wants peace. They don't want to risk having refugees heading for the west, with distroyed homes and property; don't want unnecessary split-ups of multiethnic states when coexistence is still possible; they don't want to feel compelled to interfere militarily if things get out of hand; and they don't want to spent millions in aid to create and strengthen new institutions.
It didn't split in 2001 when the conflict happenned, when the albanians were a little hyped up about a unification, and when even the macedonian academia proposed a split (if I remember correctly).
As for the current name conflict, we are gaining from it economically via tourism. Might gain from it further in the near future if they become interested in using our ports too ('corridor 8' highway has to be built first though). We are gaining politically because they realise they are in desperate need of friends, and they might as well improve relations with the albs. I do not like opportunism like this, gaining from others' conflicts, but I'm glad that the albs - NLA - asked for what we wanted before waiting for such opportunities.
I think the albanians' point of view on this should depend on the needs of the albs in macedonia. So if those albs lose by the this isolation, fvck the other gains mentioned above.
Oh, and EU better be more involved in this conflict, before the macs have enough of it and become satelites of Russia or some other power.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 13:33:03 GMT -5
it didn't split in 2001 when the conflict happenned, when the albanians were a little hyped up about a unification, and when even the macedonian academia proposed a split (if I remember correctly).
correct....this just proves that it was for equal rights and not a split ... bcs as you stated if we wanted a split that was the time for it ....
if theres a next time ....that would be the split and a split is very very negative for slav macedonians and they know that ...more now then ever and they also see into the future and see a larger demographics for Albs
and they know we can make em or break em ...(trust me on this one ) and just knowing this is empowering enough ...thats why us albs just sit in the shade and watch the show why they make fools of themselves with their identity crisis.
one item :
when Macedonia separated from yugo ...majority of Albs assumed things will be better bcs their serbian masters gone but we started seeing the writing on the walls right aways with the slavic ways of their propaganda and history making attempts ...so thus the rebellion which basically screamed "Hey Hey hold on ya got Albanians here also" aka as Cekaj Picku Materina ;D
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 30, 2009 13:42:35 GMT -5
I say we should fuk them all up the ass: lets all go Protestant... haha!!!
Imagine the looks on their faces... ;D
Im with you logic, conversions wont do shit. In fact, they would only serve to radicalize those on the edge who will feel themselves marginalized and pressured to follow the rest.
And as for you korcar, we Bektashis are happy the way we are and if any christian wants to force us into anything, they will see very quickly why we were some of the most feared troops in the Ottoman army.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 30, 2009 14:01:37 GMT -5
protestant ....aahahahah
if it was for convenience sake we would go with Judaism... imagine if we gave em homeland #2 ahahahhahahahah
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Post by L0gjICK on Jan 30, 2009 14:06:04 GMT -5
lol at the Protestant idea. It's brilliant!
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 30, 2009 14:33:35 GMT -5
Exactly Arthur, The west wants peace. They don't want to risk having refugees heading for the west, with distroyed homes and property; don't want unnecessary split-ups of multiethnic states when coexistence is still possible; they don't want to feel compelled to interfere militarily if things get out of hand; and they don't want to spent millions in aid to create and strengthen new institutions. It didn't split in 2001 when the conflict happenned, when the albanians were a little hyped up about a unification, and when even the macedonian academia proposed a split (if I remember correctly). As for the current name conflict, we are gaining from it economically via tourism. Might gain from it further in the near future if they become interested in using our ports too ('corridor 8' highway has to be built first though). We are gaining politically because they realise they are in desperate need of friends, and they might as well improve relations with the albs. I do not like opportunism like this, gaining from others' conflicts, but I'm glad that the albs - NLA - asked for what we wanted before waiting for such opportunities. I think the albanians' point of view on this should depend on the needs of the albs in macedonia. So if those albs lose by the this isolation, fvck the other gains mentioned above. Oh, and EU better be more involved in this conflict, before the macs have enough of it and become satelites of Russia or some other power. The West wants 'peace through power.' But the nature of the power is preferably economic rather than boots on the ground military ( the latter costs too much for a relatively unpopular region like Macedonia). That being said, it is logical to assume that the Western governments and multinational corporations have an incentive to loan huge amounts of money to the region's local government as they will collect later on interest , therefore, putting the region's people in perpetual debt. Just about all super powers or large powers in the world prefer this method ( feed them rope to hang themselves with and make the costs of defaulting far to great). I still don't see much economic prosperity in the region. If money is flowing in like you say (from tourism , etc.) the money is then being pocketed somewhere and not being allowed to contribute to the prosperity of the general populace. The Macedonian government will try not to upset the Albanian population. Albanians are numerous there and have political sway and , therefore, are instrumental in keeping stability in Macedonia. Likewise, I don't see any reason , at least at this point, for the Albanian populace to go against the grind and agitate for separation. Macedonia's territorial integrity is a priority for the foreign powers in the region and Albania is already on board with the Western agenda.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 30, 2009 15:26:16 GMT -5
haha Rex do i trazoj qe cke me te Kolonjaret derisa te behen njerez pe tamami!! www.beyond-the-pale.co.uk/albanian4.htmThe 'heretical' Sufi Bektashi sect offers the conscientious the nearest to the way of life that Jesus of Galilee led (and hoped his followers would lead) that is institutionally possible for 'Christianity' or Islam in the 21st century. those are teh "Muslim" Bektashi! lmao
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Post by epiroti on Feb 2, 2009 11:41:51 GMT -5
The West wants 'peace through power.' But the nature of the power is preferably economic rather than boots on the ground military ( the latter costs too much for a relatively unpopular region like Macedonia). That being said, it is logical to assume that the Western governments and multinational corporations have an incentive to loan huge amounts of money to the region's local government as they will collect later on interest , therefore, putting the region's people in perpetual debt. Just about all super powers or large powers in the world prefer this method ( feed them rope to hang themselves with and make the costs of defaulting far to great).
I still don't see much economic prosperity in the region. If money is flowing in like you say (from tourism , etc.) the money is then being pocketed somewhere and not being allowed to contribute to the prosperity of the general populace. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with 'peace through power'. In my opinion, the west is driven more by the desire to avoid serious conflicts (especially since this is europe we're talking about), for the reasons that I already mentioned, rather than by the desire to make money from countries like macedonia (via loans, etc). The demand for loans is incredibly high in the west, by other western cooperations. In comparison, the loans that macedonia would take from those countries, is almost insignificant. Let alone the fact that macedonia doesn't have crucial natural resources to lure the west. With respect to the touristic gain, I never said that it is in the level where it would make a drastic change in our economy. Still, a few thousand tourists can make a difference in ecouraging further development in that industry - so it is not to be disregarded totally.
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