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Post by BibleRiot on Jan 24, 2008 4:51:03 GMT -5
Teuta, I'm very interested in your argument that
Arvanitica is a conventional term too due to Arber (Arberesh-Arvanitas) people speaking it, which strangely enough, corrisponds in linguistic forms with Shkodrani people of North!
You may remember that BBB presented some material in which Hammond suggested Gheg origins for the Arvanites. Yet nearly all modern linguists seem to consider Arvantika (as spoken in the Peloponnese and Attica) much closer to Tosk or Cham Albanian. Do you have more material to support this idea of a Gheg link?
MeltD, that Skendi stuff was very interesting. I think he oversimplifies about tribes and blood-lineage though. Modern anthropological studies have shown that tribes tend to be more fluid groups, claiming common descent from a mythical ancestor rather than being necessarily genetically related. This idea that the people didn't care too much about religion is also a bit dodgy I think. Isn't it the case that even the Catholic Albs in Italy remained attached to the Uniate rite? Essentially, they were Orthodox who accepted the Pope's authority, but who insisted on retaining their form of worship.
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 24, 2008 13:44:35 GMT -5
One could also say that the Albanians who fled to Italy constituted a more conservative aspect who identified fully with their faith. We have seen it before, it happened in Bosnia when the Austrians took over. Even 1912 Albania went through something similar. Those who didnt like the new order that was being established went to Turkey(then still the Ottoman Empire).
I dont doubt that Christianity definitely played a role in the revolt; especially the other enemy is so clearly of another faith.
But the way I see it, what did the Albanian know about his faith really? Even Byzantine sources portray the Albanian as someone who is so ignorant of his faith, that he breaks the dogma's of it(those pertaining to the Sabbath, in Sphtraztes' account). Albanians still retained non-Abrahamic values up until the modern era. On top of it all, if he went to church, he didnt hear anything in his language.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 24, 2008 14:06:33 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D
Thanks for providing that piece of Hammond's work Melt. One can really see our ancestors in one's imagination.
I wonder about the Vlachs though. They were also pastoral, but did they also develop a warlike lifestyle? I know the Morlachs of Dalmatia and the Vlachs of Bosnia and Croatia overall were warlike .... but what about the Vlachs of Greece?
Aristidh Kola suggests they were far less warlike ... to the point where he implies that carrying arms by them was unusual.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 24, 2008 15:29:31 GMT -5
Donnie.... so being warlike is a positive thing....? IF Albanians were warlike...where has that brought them to?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 24, 2008 21:26:43 GMT -5
Bibleriot wrote:
I was just focusing in the language itself. If you knew Albanian, you'd see that the structure of Gheg and Tosk is not very different. If you spoke Greek and Serbio-Croatian plus Albanian, you'll notice all the influences of Serbo-Croatian language in the North part -Gheg - (which is not limited to Shkodra) but goes beyond it, to Albanians of Montenegro, Kosovo etc, and you'll also see the influences of Greek language in South Albania (and in Albanians of FYrom where one notices an intermixture of both dialects). But yet, beside some influences, the origin remians Albanian as some words which are the same in Arvanitica, North, Gheg and these are base words such: Gur (stone), Buke (bread), Ate (father), eshte (asht) - is etc. When Hammond suggested Gheg origins for the Arvanites, I am assuming he was referring to the findings because of the common structure of substratum of the language. So, he may have seen it in its Morphology and Lexicology, (not Phonetic) whithout Hellenistic and Serbo-Croatian or Latin influences (even though I doubt it because only a few Professors in Tirana University can possess that knowledge). So, he may not be mistaken, but a wider study must be brought here re the similarities and differences of both dialects.
I can give you some differences that show differences in Lexicology but similarities in composition:
Gheg: T'amel (milk) as derivat of embel Tosk: Qumesht (milk) Standartized Alb. including Gheg and Tosk - e/e embel (sweet - (i) masc and (e) femin. For the milk is qumesht.
In gheg - (Kosovo area) Majica (blouse) and is brought by Serbian language I think Tosk: FanELLE (blouse) Tosk: fustanELLE (dress, skirt) Standartized: Fanellate (material of what the dress and the blouse are made of) Also: Fustan - dress
Gheg: Mjalt (honey) Tosk: Mjalte Standartized: same
Gheg: T'lyn (butter) Tosk: Gjalp Standartized: Gjalpe, but the "root" of T'lyn is "Ly'ej" (to butter, to color something) (not sure for English translation here ;D)
Gheg: axha (cousin) Tosk: xhaxha (cousin) Standart: xhaxha-i
Gheg: hajde (come) Tosk: Hajde, Eja, ec Standartized: all of the above (all of Hellenic influence, including Serbian which borrowed it from Greeks, except ec)
some more basic words:
Gheg: Bore (snow) Tosk: Bore Standartized: same
Gheg: uj' (water) Tosk: Uje Standartized: Uje
Gheg: çike, cuce, (devojke from Serbian) (girl) Tosk: vajze, çupe, goce, Standartized: all of the above except Devojk/a
Now, if we refer to some Greek words brought in Arvanitica such as: Arvanitica: dhromo (road) Tosk: udhe, rruge (some scholars have been trying to associate it with the Albanian word DHE - soil) Gheg: dhe, udhe, rruge, xhade (Ii think here is another one which I can't recall right now)
In other terms, if analysing the language itself, one can notice the similarities of Arvanitica with Gheg and Tosk (as I call it Albanian language as per its substrattum and the Arvanitica, Gheg and Tosk its dialects) So, we cannot assume that Arvanitica was spoken in North Albanian or South Albanian, but: Gheg is a Dialect (not people as many here willingly or unwillingly mistake), Tosk is a Dialect of Albanian. Avanitica is another old dialect which has similarity with both Gheg and Tosk but MORE borrowings from Greek. This is as of Lexic and Morphology. Re: phonetic: the lonely differences are: the rotative (in English which in Alb. is rotacizem) element and Tosk has the R and Nasal phenomen of E which Ghegh has it less then tosk
This is what I can recall now so do not take it apriori. As I told you, very few people are able to make a real study on it. I am not the one qualified. This is just to give you an idea. More studies should be make and are made already but I don't have time to go through them.
Regards, T
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 24, 2008 23:32:49 GMT -5
Hajde is Arabic.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 25, 2008 0:24:33 GMT -5
Maybe so. But we didn't borrow it from Arabs for sure...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 25, 2008 5:23:19 GMT -5
Donnie.... so being warlike is a positive thing....? IF Albanians were warlike...where has that brought them to? It depends on how you view it. Our ancestors were fine warriors and men who stood by their word. I think that is a source of pride. Can you deny that you felt some sense of pride when watching movies such as "300" (disregarding it being unrealistic from many viewpoints)? Where it took us is a different matter. One can conclude that those countries who have been primarily focused in trade and commerce are also the ones who've succeeded the best in terms of development. But that does not take away one's pride, however.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 25, 2008 5:31:09 GMT -5
Teuta
You're speaking of the Serbo-Croat influence in the north as if they were overwhelming. One thing must be clarified. Terms such as majica etc are recent introductions, loan words incorporated into the daily speech as a result of nearly a century of Serbian occupation. This does not mean that we have lost our own equivalents for these loan words .... thus we still say rryma even though many tend to say struja (which is Serbian). We still have the word lum-i (river) despite some people saying reka instead. We still say tërfurk (fork) even though some few say vilushka. Etc.
Also, devojke is NEVER used by Ghegs. I have not once heard it, and I am from Kosova. We usually say çikë or vajzë.
Old Slavonic borrowings are present in BOTH dialects, Gheg and Tosk, such as zakon, rrafsh etc. The same account for old Greek borrowings, such as lakën in Gheg and lakër in Tosk.
Eja is Hellenic?
In Kosova, we also say paja, as in "paja k'ktu". I use this word more often than hajde. Anyone heard of it? Anyone know if it is indigenous?
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Post by BibleRiot on Jan 25, 2008 16:05:05 GMT -5
There's also the possibiity that what might confuse the issue, both for Teuta and for Hammond, is the survival of archaic forms in Arvantika and Gheg dialect, forms which might have faded from the more exposed Tosk – and that perceived similarities between Gheg and Arvantika are in fact simply the shared survival of these archaisms from the middle ages, when Gheg and Tosk were probably much closer than in the early 20th century or perhaps even now.
Is it not the case that many Gheg speakers, like many of the speakers of Arvantika, tended to live much more isolated tribal lives, often in uplands, than the detribalised Tosks ?
I'm afraid I can't remember and don't have my books here; do we know for sure that John Shpata and Peter Llosha came from the north? Was it in any case their followers who settled in Attica, or Tosks displaced by them? Perhaps there were successive (11th- 13th century) waves of Alb settlers, some from the north some from the south?
It would be surprising if all the pro linguists who have studied the issue had got it so wrong – but stranger things have happened.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 26, 2008 3:54:57 GMT -5
I don't know Donnie...I don't really know...all I know is my Grandmother is from Kosovo (Gjakova) and she always used to call me "devojka". That's why I thought so. But I may have been wrong.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 26, 2008 10:10:14 GMT -5
This is very correct. Arvanitika (Arbërishte in our tongue) has preserved certain archaisms which were lost among Tosk speakers who remained in Albania and Epirus. Archaisms which, on the other hand, were preserved by the Ghegs. One such example is the preservation of 'k' in Gheg and Arvanitika, whereas in Tosk it transformed into 'q' (a peculiar sound which does not exist in English, hence I cannot describe its sound).
An example is the word for crying. In Gheg it is kjaj; in Arvanitika it is kliaj; in Tosk it is qaj. But there is no doubt that Arvanitika is nothing but a branch of Tosk. Its preservation of archaic forms is merely the result of them breaking off from other Tosk speakers before the latter undertook some phonetical changes which to Hammond might have appeared as if the Arvanites were infact speakers of the Gheg dialect.
Well teuta, your grandmother is a unique case then. God knows why she called you "devojka". It hasn't been used by any other Albanian grandmother from Kosova that I know (I have two and I've known some other older ladies).
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 26, 2008 11:11:18 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence for this?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 27, 2008 2:20:39 GMT -5
Donnie, is "paja" and it appeares as a contraction of "Pa eja [/i]k'tu", which in Tosk is "pa eja [/i]k etu" and in Gheg goes for: "pa'ja k'tu" (this is the phonetic difference where e is omitted) and is in a vocative manner in both dialects. Is basically the word EJA, but PA is in vocative form and K'TU is here, as you well know. (Some people tend to argue for this PA and connect it the conditional, which in Alb. is NESE) And yes, I've heard of it. My unforgetful grandma used to use it too... As per Rryma (alb) I didn't considered it because is a modern phenomenon connected to electricity, which " Rryma" is referred to the water first. Then its association for the electricity. But in Tosk, the word Electricity was introduced with the phenomen from Italian and rryma is used only for the water. As per majica... I don't recall this word in gheg dialect...sorry...this is the lonely word I've heard and I know has recently entered in the alb. vocabulary; And also lumi, kroi, , tërfurk, which in Tosk is sfurk etc. are all the same forms of the same language. Thank you. T/
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 27, 2008 2:25:41 GMT -5
In Greek it's klei...
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Mimi
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Post by Mimi on Jan 27, 2008 6:31:24 GMT -5
hey we dont say devojka, that sounds very Serbian but maybe when some people want to joke around they use it. i dont hear anyone using it though.
T´omel lol we know that we should not use it as its wrong but we still use it sometimes
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jan 27, 2008 12:04:23 GMT -5
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jan 27, 2008 12:09:24 GMT -5
....................
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