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Post by meltdown711 on Apr 2, 2009 11:57:01 GMT -5
Pretty interesting: I cant translate it now as Im heading off to class. Patrinos or somebody from the Greek forum could probably have an easier time doing so. Interesting is also the mention of the sword dance done by northern Albs.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Apr 2, 2009 12:23:47 GMT -5
Do so when you have the time, and if you have the patience. Very interesting.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 2, 2009 13:02:40 GMT -5
Thats the translation of the greek text. It is very archaic, almost pury attic.
"Συνελείχθησαν οι του νεκρού αγχισταί και τουτονί περιστάντες της θρηνωδίας απήρχοντο, των μεν ανδρών ισταμένων, καθήμενων δε των γυναίων, και των μεν αρχομένων, των δε διαδεχομένων, οίω τω τρόπω Κρήτες εχρώντο περι τε γάμους ηρώων και πανήγυρεις θεών, όθεν και ες ημάς τουτι το πράγμα διαμεμενηκε, τοιουτότροπα ες χορούς αδόντων των Κρητών τε και των Κρησσών"
"Τhe close relatives gathered around the dead and turned in order to face the other and began the lamentation, the men standing up, and the women sitting down, and the first(the men) starting , and the other following(the lamentation), just like Cretans used to do in the weddings of heroes and panygureis(gatherings in english?) for the gods, from where this same(habit) of us originate from, in the same way Kretes and Kresses* singing in horous."
*"Kresses" is the female form of Kretes(Cretans)
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Post by danceswithpoodles on Apr 2, 2009 13:08:55 GMT -5
panigiri=feast (of a saint, celebration)
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 2, 2009 13:13:17 GMT -5
Yes I know, i left it like this because I think its today a loanword from greek in all balkanian languages, and i suppose they know the meaning.
Btw Melty this google book is very interesting. The figures of Charos, Hades etc are very alive in Greek folklore till today(with the same names),paganism despite Church's reaction has left many marks on Greeks' folk tradition.
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Post by meltdown711 on Apr 2, 2009 14:28:19 GMT -5
The sword contest Alexiou described was a yearly event in my grandma's village of (N)arta, people from around the area gathered there and the men wore satyr like costumes and had sword contests. They werent real swords though and it would all occur in a playfull manner with people circling around them and laughing. The communists allowed this to go on and made it a yearly festivity for those around Vlore. My aunt would go every once in a while for fun. I think in recent days, since the collapse of communism, it declined heavily. In northern Albania the contests would be held with real swords and they had a very rhythmic movement to it. An image of it: In the Albanian folk tale Scanderbeg and Ballaban, Mehmed II asks the messenger what he saw when he went to Scanderbeg's camp: They were singing and dancing a sword dance and waiting impatiently for the order to attack." "What is this sword dance, messenger?" asked the Sultan. "It is an Albanian dance, oh ruler over land and sea. It would send a shiver down your spine to see how those men, as huge as oak trees, were leaping and dancing with their naked swords and crossing their blades as if in battle."
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 2, 2009 18:32:10 GMT -5
Τhe close relatives gathered around the dead and turned in order to face the other and began the lamentation, the men standing up, and the women sitting down, and the first(the men) starting , and the other following(the lamentation), just like Cretans used to do in the weddings of heroes and panygureis(gatherings in english?) for the gods so this similarity goes with the cretans from the pagan days. hmm
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Post by meltdown711 on Apr 2, 2009 18:37:56 GMT -5
What's it to a Slavs business? Your not Albanian?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 2, 2009 18:43:11 GMT -5
What's it to a Slavs business? Your not Albanian?
Neither were these people as Albanians as identity are no more then 100 years old. (Linguistically them might exist 500 or more years)
What their language today is or my peoples language is of no consequence as language is but means of communicating and it can be changed ( -- hell we are both speaking in a Germanic language now with strong Latinate base called English) especially if everything else points to another direction.
Direction pointed here is again DORIAN.
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Post by meltdown711 on Apr 2, 2009 19:08:09 GMT -5
Your an idiot Admin. These people were Albanians of the Middle Ages, simple as that. People dont exist by identical names all the time. Thats like saying modern French people have nothing to do with the Gallo-Romans of earlier times, or the English have nothing to do with Old English speaking people. Its part of a larger linguistic/ethnic development. Or that Germans have no relation to any people called Alemanii et. al. So hush!!! Dont ruin my topic with your wacky theories.... We speak a language which has no other IE derivatives. Nothing for it to form out of 500 years ago, you speak a variant of Slavic formed at a precisely defined date. Slav! You belong in Hitler's camps... What points to another direction? Your ass' s**t? Lol!!! Did you ever come to think that maybe those people making those Doric links you saw a whole lot back are actually looking at these texts and then create their connection? These arent old letters you know... Byzantine docs are open to all... ;D So again, please aadmin, even if it is your forum, speaking nothing when you know nothing is better than speaking s**t.... And, as for language changing... when a language does change, it retains strong elements of the language once spoken, especially if the change is over a long period of time. Thus while Gallic changed to Latin, in Gaul, it remains distinct today. Northern Albanian has nothing to say that these people spoke another language... especially when the given language (Albanian) has no known derivatives (there exist linguistic links, such as with Greek and Romanian, but these are vague and point to a connection which spanned thousands of years back, thus Albanian is also linked with Armenian and Hittite): The results seemed to be convincing, in particular for the North-Western group, and also for the relation of Greek and the Indo-Iranian group. The late separations of Albanian, Armenian, and Hittite could well have been founded in their central position and therefore did not appear suspicious.www.hjholm.de/SLRD.pdf
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 2, 2009 20:00:44 GMT -5
our an idiot Admin. I am an idiot for expressing my opinion. Idiot is one who easily resorts to insults cause options differ. Idiot is one who unprovoked still insults an authority figure. (in an environment where their presence is easily erased) Idiot is one who starts the path while disliking where it takes them. (if intentional then still idiot for resorting to childish behavior since one simple request would have done the trick). These people were Albanians of the Middle Ages, simple as that. People dont exist by identical names all the time. Thats like saying modern French people have nothing to do with the Gallo-Romans of earlier times, or the English have nothing to do with Old English speaking people. Its part of a larger linguistic/ethnic development. Or that Germans have no relation to any people called Alemanii et. al. So hush!!! Ok booksmart genius (wow lol your reasoning here is really below my standards of engagement) I was again referring to the language. Albanians were a conglomeration of often warring tribes with primarily tribal designation as primary and only mode of self identity (outside of religion). French got name from Germanic Franks yet as you said are Gallo-Romans or Celto-Romans. Angles and Saxons colonized primarily and by far eastern coastal England so many of today's English do indeed little relationshiop with them. Alemani is just one Germanic nation near Alps so certainly majority of Germans have no direct relationship with them. So you hush you little monkey. Dont ruin my topic with your wacky theories.... We speak a language which has no other IE derivatives. Nothing for it to form out of 500 years ago, you speak a variant of Slavic formed at a precisely defined date. Your language as far as vocabulary goes is a fusion of slavic, Turkish, Latin and bears some relationship with Romanians which suggests to me Dacian Carpian connection who might have arrived in our region around 1000 years ago. You are in an area that saw ample of Crusader, Ottoman, Venetian and god knows what other influences and in a country that last became independent and not on their own but because primarily because Ottomans departed. Slavic is primarily a linguistic classification. Slav! You belong in Hitler's camps... you are really inching for a ban aren't you except you are going about it in a undignified manner and want to exit it in what some sort of blaze of glory of being banned. How childish. What points to another direction? Your ass' s**t? Lol!!! Did you ever come to think that maybe those people making those Doric links you saw a whole lot back are actually looking at these texts and then create their connection? These arent old letters you know... Byzantine docs are open to all... ;D This is a clear Dorian connection. Racially there is a Dorian connection between again SW Crete and NW Albania and Montenegro. They were specific about similarity with Cretans from pagan days which pushes dates considerably and eliminates anything to do with last millennium or people know today as Albanians from a seperate entity's point of view. So again, please aadmin, even if it is your forum, speaking nothing when you know nothing is better than speaking s**t.... well again I am growing more and more sick of your crappy behavior and honestly you are an inch from being permanently banned at this point. And, as for language changing... when a language does change, it retains strong elements of the language once spoken, especially if the change is over a long period of time. Thus while Gallic changed to Latin, in Gaul, it remains distinct today. Northern Albanian has nothing to say that these people spoke another language... especially when the given language (Albanian) has no known derivatives (there exist linguistic links, such as with Greek and Romanian, but these are vague and point to a connection which spanned thousands of years back, thus Albanian is also linked with Armenian and Hittite): And this means what ... that the language originated where it is situated now in an area which was hard pressed between ancient Greek and Latin cultural and linguistic influence and where locals were either fully Hellenized or Romanized yet mighty illiterate locals managed to stay away by hiding in mountains lol As if they would not eventually (linguistically and culturally) succumb to prevailing valley culture which whom they would have to trade to survive. Or that another people arrived south (Dacian Carpi) and imposed their language gradually on locals.
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Post by meltdown711 on Apr 2, 2009 20:27:20 GMT -5
As i said before Aadmin, you can ban me whenever you want....
Oh great, so my topic was now moved. I opened this for the Albanian forum, as it pertains to Albania and Albanian people, even the author of the book states that...
Lol, try arguing that at any place of any scholarship whatsoever and see how you will be laughed out. There is no 'Dorian connection' so far up in the Balkans. Dorians reach northern Greece and southern Albania at their farthest, they dont extend anywhere else. And even that high it begins to stretch. To go as far as Montenegro and northern Albania, places in classical antiquity which are never mentioned as part of the hellenistic world, is a joke.
Your arguing semantics, I was stating that these people belong to the ethnic history of the given people. Thus yes, The Alemanii are part of the ethnic history of the Germans, The Celto-Roman also to the modern French, just like the franks... its simply a development cycle. You can argue that Albanians then did not have an ethnic awareness which exists today, but they were still part of the thenic group called 'Albanians'. Italians called them Albanians, et al.
Again, language would have survived through loanwords. let along the fact that there is no actual evidence for such a movement. And Romanization/Hellenization was not a universal thing. It was limited to urban areas for the most part (especially Hellenization, Romanization less so since there were population movements into the rural regions). Its impossible to speak of a universal one since there are plenty of evidence of various mountaeus societies escaping it. into the 5-6th century we have mentions of more mountaneous regions around Gaul escaping Romanization, along withe parts of Anatolia which escaped hellenization (Kurds and a people called Isaurians). These went on until in the middle ages they were taken over once and for all by the majority population. In Albania you had the opposite. In the 11th century you had mountaneous tribes taking control of lowland regions.
Hellenization was in fact very limited since Greeks rarely colonized rural zones, if ever. Thats why it was broken so fast in the middle east (where all traces of it were erased within a single generation.
Again, remove this nonsense from your head. Cultural values and practices are not indicative of conspiracy like theories. Again, you and youtube people are the only kind promoting this bs.
You know what, fuk it, Ill email Alexiou myself.
1. You dont know Albanian, therefore dont speak about what our language is made up of, since much of it is not any of those. Secondly, by 1000 Dacians seem to have been sufficiently Romanized (atleast lowland regions). Albanian links to that language are considered, and this is by Romanian linguisists themselves, to be pre-Romanization. They are a native Balkan connection. Not anything else.
And did you even look at the links I gave you? They pretty much throw out your bs...
now move my topic backl And an idiot is an idiot and an idiot is you.
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