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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 28, 2009 22:37:05 GMT -5
Alright, I see where he is going. Kaplan Resuli-Burrovich is a Macedonian Slav "scholar" from Albania. Lol, this is a joke
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 28, 2009 22:37:58 GMT -5
Toponyms are indeed the witnesses of the centuries-long presence of a people, preserving the names of settlements, individual geographical features, historical events etc., but toponyms of themselves cannot decide the affiliation of territories to contemporary political-administrative, state entities. The decision as to whom particular territories belong can and should be made by the personal choice, that is, by the self-determination solely of the nations who live on them. The purpose of the data which we shall present, therefore, is not documentation pro or contra but a scientifically based confirmation of proven facts.
The majority of the toponyms in the Balkans are of Greek and Roman origin with the exception of some settlements with very ancient names, for example, Singidunum, the Scordian name for Belgrade, but this is completely understandable given the long duration of established Greek and Roman themes or provinces in the Balkans. Since it is the relationship between Albanian and Slavonic toponymy which interests us, however, we shall devote the following pages to this.
Let us repeat, citing yet one more source, the fact about Illyrian illiteracy: "Since the IIlyrians and Dardan did not develop literacy in their language the only written memorials of theirs which remain to us are Greek and Roman inscriptions on stone..." 21
This will make it easier for us to understand the above-cited detail that the predominant toponomy was Graeco-Roman. With the penetration of the Slav tribes, however, in the main starting from the fifth century AD, Slav toponyms spread more and more, reaching also to the south of the Balkans. By the ninth century, a great part of present day Albania was already covered with Slav, mostly Serbian, toponyms. We will show the extent and duration of this phenomenon according to the results of our investigations which demanded much patience but which enabled us to gather an imposing number of several hundred Slav toponyms in Albania from maps (scale 1:100,000 & 1:200,000) of the 1920s and 1930s. We rejected all those toponyms which underwent linguistic change, that is, Albanization, whereby the Slav form was altered in its outward expression. In order to avoid any confusion we have retained only those names whose form still shows today their origin and there are over three hundred of these "pure" toponyms which we shall now list.
Baba Babin Babinja Babja Balaban Banja Bastare Bastrice Bezani + Belgrad Belice Belje Belove Belovode Berzeste Bistric Biserka Bistrica Bistrice Blace Bobostice Bodin Bodriste Bordani Borici Borje Borova + Borovjani Bradosnica Bratomira Breska Bresnik Brezdan Brostani Budisa Bukmira Buzgara Valjana Valjusa Varvara Veles Veljcan Gora Vernica + Vila Vodica Vojnika Vrakule Vranista Vranista Vrepska Vulcani Gabrica Gajtani Glava Gline Golem Golemi + Golik Goloberdo Goljovisti Gorica Goroselj Gostiviste + Grabom Grabova Grabove Grabovice Grabovo + Gradac Gradec Gradiste Gradiskije Grazdani Grazdenik Graliste Gracen Gracani Grace Grozdani Gruda Darda Debrova Desmira Dobra Dobric Dobruna + Dragan Dragavoja Draginje Dragobija Dragostun Dragove Dragus Draci Dracove Drasovice Drenove Drovjani Drugana Dusmani + Dvoran Oeriste Zepa Zupiste Zagora Zagorican Zagradec Zagradi Zagradcani Zapat Zaradiste Zavaljan Zvezda Izviri Izgara Izgoralec Jablanit Janjan Jezerces Jerka Jubica Kamare Kamenica + Kamicani Kamnik + Kapica Karista Kasarna Kilaziste Klena Klenja Klisari Kovaci Kovaciste + Kovacica Korite Kosan Kosina Kosmaci Kosovec Kosovo Kosteni Kostenja Kostican Kotor Kosarista + Kosovica Krajni Krasta Krstac Kula Lepusa Leskova Leskoviku Leskovinu Lesnica Lestice Livadasi Livadi Likova Lisan Lovina Lozani Logavista Lopusa Lubinja Ljesani Ljivadi Ljubonje + Mali Mucalj Maliseva Malibarde Malina Manastirec Memlista Mecka Milica Miljusi Mirovna Mocani Moglice Mogra Monastir Negovani Nepravista + Niksi + Nikolara Nikolica Nikoijica Nivice Novasela Novoselo Oblika Osojna Padina Pastani Pepeli Pestani Plana + Plovista Podgora Podgorani Podgori Podgoria Podgradec Pogradec Pojata + Polidani Poposina Porobani Potkozani Prekal Prekali Prenista Prodani Radan Radicina Radimiste Radimniste Rajce + Rahovice Rastan Rec Redi Recit Rodokalj Rovica Sama Sanista Sebista Selca Selec Seleka Selence Selenica + Sepetova Slabinje Slatina + Slova Sopot Sovjani St. Javore Stani Staravec Stare Starov Starova + Stebilova Stranik Strelca Suha Suhodoli Sv. Dimitrije Ternova Topljana Torovica Trasani Trebinje Treske Tresova Trosan Tuceni Ulova Uljmiste Ustinje Cerkovica Cernjeva Catiste Cesme Coban + Siroka Sistevac Skola Stit Sticeni Sumica
(the + sign alongside the name of a place indicates that the same name appears on the maps two or more times for different places).
We have already pointed out to our readers the fact that a not inconsiderable part of the fabric of the Albanian people is woven from the Slav people so that such a large number of Slav toponyms should come as no surprise. However, this is not a complete list of Slav, that is, Serbian toponyms. I have already said that only those forms which today point to a Serbian origin are given so that I draw the reader's attention to a precise map marked with Serbian toponyms on Albanian soil composed by the Bulgarian academic, A. Selisgev, for his book Slavyanskoe naselenie v Albanii, Sofia, 1931 and which was republished in the anthology Iliri i Albanci by the Serbian Academy of Arts & Sciences (SANU), Belgrade. 1988, p. 230. The knowledge that for decades the Albanian authorities have claimed there is no Serbian national minority in Albania, however, will probably remain an open wound for Serbs and probably the chasm born of these marked contradictions will continue to stimulate hurtful and painful memories of an altered and lost part of the Serbian people.
With regard to Kosovo and Metohia, on the other hand, for which we have given detailed demographic and statistical data, the situation is different to an unbelievable degree.
Namely, in that area there is not one single toponym whose origin could be found in the Albanian language. All of the toponyms in that area which in historical literature was designated as Old Serbia are either Serbian or Slavicised Roman names and the Shiptars who live there today call some villages either by names translated into Albanian or use some Turkish names arising from the time when these regions were under Turkish rule.
This unique and indisputable fact that there are no Albanian toponyms in Kosovo and Metohia evidently does not fit in with the numerous demands, statements and wishes of the secessionist parties and chauvinistic Shiptars and Albanians because they have always constantly avoided this theme.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 28, 2009 22:42:23 GMT -5
"thanks to Byzantine sources, the name Albanians is first mentioned from Ptolemy in the eleventh century (1079) and a significant part of the area they inhabited progressively but in a fairly compressed period of time came under the authority of Serbian rulers and administrators. However, even before those conquests, areas were gifted to Slav nobles and Serbs were even chosen to lead Albanian insurgents. This happened for the first time in the ninth century when, during his imprisonment in Prespa, the Serbian Zupan, Vladimir, married Kosara, the daughter of Emperor Samuil who bestowed him with the princedom in northern Albania. Fifty years later, the people "called out for emperor' Tihomir to lead an uprising against the Greeks in central Albania. Just before his death, Petar Dejan, an insurgent from Nis, united his warriors with insurgents from central Albania who also "cried out" for him to be "emperor". However, since something has already been said about other cases, we shall end with the last personality, the Despot Stefan Lazarevic, who, even during the time of the great Ottoman penetrations into the Balkans in the second quarter of the fifteenth century, succeeded in spreading the territory of the Serbian lands into that of present day Albania." www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter4.htmlSorry, guys l don't have a lot of time at the moment, all l did was cut and past from some sources to answer Donnie. Tihomir and Petar Dejan are serbs, wikipedia has them noted as Bulgars, wrong!.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 29, 2009 12:22:44 GMT -5
Now here is an interesting proposal for Novi. In Albania, its not just the Alb settlements that have Slavic toponyms, but the Greek as well. In fact, the center for the Greek minority is littered with Slavic names: Kossovitsa, Dervicani, Dropolli (poli not from city, but from old Slavonic: horse).
Now, your telling us, Novi, that the Greeks settled in Slavic areas and replaced the Slavs there? Are you saying that the Greeks in southern Albania are not native? That they actually stole Slavic land?
Well, thats fine, but you better take it up with Arxilleas...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 30, 2009 8:24:13 GMT -5
Novi is 100% right. regarding toponyms, it is funny how albs when having nothing else to say, they drop down the bulgarian card, in full despair... ha ha ha
Ladies & Gentlemen,
A LOT of toponyms Albania down to Mani peloponese are of Slav origin. Whether bulgarian or serbian or fyromakian nobody can tell.
For Epirus, i can tell you that we have Doliani and Suvoseli. Suvo is "suh" in bulgarian. Also Doljanj's in ex-YU outnumber the ones in Bulg by 50:1
I also believe that around 1000 AD for the byzantine writers and westies Serb and Bulgarian didnt mean much difference. I know as of 1850 in Greece there were generally Greek-Slav dictionaries without specifying any particular slav language.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 1, 2009 7:07:39 GMT -5
LOL, of couse, copy and paste the work of dissatisfied dissidents of the comunist era whose expertise in the field of linguistics and such is at best laughable, has been your only way to "argue" for your case ... you couldn't even answer one simple question, just one. Pathetic.
I realize there's no point in arguing with you here, since you will continue to "debate" in the moronic way that you do, choosing quantity over quality and "bombing" us with useless articles written by biased non-experts with ulterior motives ... so I will say this; Slav toponymy isn't exclusive to Albania in the non-Slav countries of the Balkans. Prior to Greece's name-changing reform of non-Greek toponyms, it too was peppered with Slav place-names; even today, plenty of names of Greek towns are Slav, like Metsovo, Kozani, Konitsa etc. This doesn't mean Slavs came there "before" the Greeks ... the same goes with the Romanians etc.
You, and your stupid articles, have failed to argue for what you initially claimed, namely that all Albanian hydronyms and oronyms may be explained through Slavic. That is why I asked you about the river Mati, since only that example suffices to discredit your stupid claim. This river is mentioned in ancient sources as "Mathis" and is related to an old Albanian word, "mat", meaning "river-bank". This was long before the Slavs came. Other rivers include Ishmi, Shkumbini, Vjosa, Drini -- what is their meaning in Slav? Or mountains like Mali i Thate, Maja e Shnikut, Maja Briaset etc ...
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 1, 2009 20:31:58 GMT -5
^
"When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today¹s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others."
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 2, 2009 5:49:46 GMT -5
Does this also count for what happened in Greece, where you also have Slav toponyms, like the above mentioned towns of Kozani, Metsovo, Konitsa? Did the Slavs come to Greece before the Greeks, who themselves had to adopt the Slav place-names because, according to your logic, they must've been there prior for these toponyms to have arisen ... Greece was peppered with Slav toponyms prior to the name reform of 1935, when toponyms of Albanian, Vlach & Slav origins were given new, Greek names. Look at the Grevena prefecture for instance; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_toponyms_of_places_in_Grevena_PrefectureAnd all listed names of towns in Albania are of newer state ... and you failed to prove even one name of a river that is supposedly Slavic ... lol. Towns are usually of a newer age.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 2, 2009 17:47:55 GMT -5
Forget it, he wont answer you... as you see I already posted the issue in the greek forum and he completely ignored it. He cant answer you since he cant rationalize. Hence why he relies onf copy and paste. Novi is just not a bright guy.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on May 2, 2009 18:49:25 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 2, 2009 20:32:32 GMT -5
"The majority of the toponyms in the Balkans are of Greek and Roman origin"
Guys, did l ever say the Serbs arrived before the Greeks. Enuf with the shifty talk.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 0:32:51 GMT -5
"Novi is 100% right. regarding toponyms, it is funny how albs when having nothing else to say, they drop down the bulgarian card, in full despair... ha ha ha"
Pyrro, when its striking that its Montenegrin/serb they cry out Bulgarian from samuils time lmao.....the slavs of albania carried out rebellions against the Bulgar empire of 10th century, these men Tihomir, Deljan, Ivac and Vojteh from vardar or albania carried out their uprisings in a pro-serbian manner.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 3, 2009 16:15:56 GMT -5
Forget it, he wont answer you... as you see I already posted the issue in the greek forum and he completely ignored it. He cant answer you since he cant rationalize. Hence why he relies onf copy and paste. Novi is just not a bright guy. You're right. Which is why I favour the changing of all foreign toponymy in Albania into Albanian, like in Greece. This for two reasons; one is because Slav toponyms sound ugly, and the second is because of the feeble-minded like Novi Pazar ... their brains work very superficially, and perhaps what isn't there was never there, in their eyes, and they can stop recycling these stupid "arguments" over and over again without the capacity of going further in the debate. Corovoda can become Ujet e Zi, Kucova can become Shtepiza, etc, Pogradec can become Teqyteza and so on. PS I suspect the Slav origins of some of the listed place-names, like Belsh. Novi will argue it comes from "belo". meaning white, but the ending "sh" in this case is untypical for Slav place-names with the word white in them, e.g. Beograd, Bijelo Polje, Bjelovar, Belica, Belovoda etc. And what about Kelcyre, what does this mean in Slav?
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 19:54:11 GMT -5
^ change whatever you want, because these are recorded in history and you can never run away ;D
Donne, does Albanian sound particulary beautiful?, l agree with some here that its like you need to smash the keyboard to spit out your language.
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Post by ErmirI on May 4, 2009 2:35:37 GMT -5
yeah srpska is an example of your beautiful language
buy some vowels you half-evolved
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 4, 2009 5:01:27 GMT -5
^ did l say serbian or slavic inparticular is beautiful?. Is Albanian a beautiful language, l'll let people here decide.
Why don't you open up a thread and find out?
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