Bozur
Amicus
Posts: 5,515
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Post by Bozur on Apr 14, 2009 7:40:49 GMT -5
Terror may become the idea to unite world Armenians again
Today.Az » Politics » Terror may become the idea to unite world Armenians again: head of center of political innovations and technologies Mubariz Ahmedoghlu 10 April 2009 [11:15] - Today.Az
World Armenians are not a monolythic structure, which is due to Armenians' inclination to assimilate with the title nation of the country where they leave, said head of the Center for political innovations and technologies Mubariz Ahmedoghlu.
According to him in the result the number of Armenians is reducing, while the difference between the views of Armenians, residing in Armenia and Armenians that live in different countries of the world is growing.
"For example, Armenians transform into Frenchmen, while residing in France, too rapidly, while Armenians in the United States assimilate the way of thinking and conduct of the Americans. In the established conditions, to preserve the nation, Armenians need any idea around which they could have unite regardless of the country of their residence and this idea is a mythical "Armenian genocide" of 1915 in the Osman Turkey.
Moreover, this very idea was a forming basis for creation of the ASALA terror organization -Armenian Secret Army of Liberation of Armenia. And hre it would be timely to remind that in period of the intensive activity of ASALA, that terminated a number of Turkish and European diplomats and peaceful civilians, the degree of solidarity among world Armenians was quite high.
Therefore, I quite accept this terror might become the idea around which the world armenians will unite again and if this happens we will hear about new murders and terror acts by Armenian terrorists.
/Day.Az/
URL: www.today.az/news/politics/51454.html
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Post by oszkarthehun on Apr 30, 2009 7:45:39 GMT -5
Terror may become the idea to unite world Armenians again
Today.Az » Politics » Terror may become the idea to unite world Armenians again: head of center of political innovations and technologies Mubariz Ahmedoghlu 10 April 2009 [11:15] - Today.Az
World Armenians are not a monolythic structure, which is due to Armenians' inclination to assimilate with the title nation of the country where they leave, said head of the Center for political innovations and technologies Mubariz Ahmedoghlu.
According to him in the result the number of Armenians is reducing, while the difference between the views of Armenians, residing in Armenia and Armenians that live in different countries of the world is growing.
"For example, Armenians transform into Frenchmen, while residing in France, too rapidly, while Armenians in the United States assimilate the way of thinking and conduct of the Americans. In the established conditions, to preserve the nation, Armenians need any idea around which they could have unite regardless of the country of their residence and this idea is a mythical "Armenian genocide" of 1915 in the Osman Turkey.
Moreover, this very idea was a forming basis for creation of the ASALA terror organization -Armenian Secret Army of Liberation of Armenia. And hre it would be timely to remind that in period of the intensive activity of ASALA, that terminated a number of Turkish and European diplomats and peaceful civilians, the degree of solidarity among world Armenians was quite high.
Therefore, I quite accept this terror might become the idea around which the world armenians will unite again and if this happens we will hear about new murders and terror acts by Armenian terrorists.
/Day.Az/
URL: www.today.az/news/politics/51454.html I think the propoal in this article is biased BS. I dont think Armenians in diaspora assimilate and lose their culture and identity so easily. For example Armenians have been in Iran for 500 years or more and still continue to live as Armenians culturally, by identity etc and they moved to Iran long time before the Arm genocide.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 30, 2009 7:57:59 GMT -5
what do you expect...its written by a turk.
turks keep telling armenians to forget about it...as if it was just a bad day or something. Meanwhile the armenians have lost their homeland. And the turks complain about the revenge attacks that were committed by the armenians but fail to understand that they occupy an area that was once armenian. So even if turks did die at that time...they gained land. So really no comparison can be made.
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Post by raven on Apr 30, 2009 10:00:03 GMT -5
The article was written by an Azeri, not a Turk and i disagree with much of the article.
Many Armenians in the diaspora are certainly not assimilated into the host population and still strongly identify as Armenians.
They are very similar to the Jewish diaspora in many respects.
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Post by thracian08 on May 12, 2009 18:22:35 GMT -5
Chalkedon - people lose their homelands all the time ! Hello !!!
There is also a country called ARmenia and a country called Israel !
Big deal, everyone occupies & conquers everyone else ! That is how the world is.
Armenians need to get over it !!
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Post by chalkedon on May 13, 2009 7:24:30 GMT -5
^^^ cmon thracian...you wouldnt be saying this if you were a palestinian or armenian. You are saying this because you are a "turk".
It doesnt work that way...sorry. Ppl wont forget, not the armenians and not the pontians.
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Post by thracian08 on May 14, 2009 16:20:17 GMT -5
Come on Chalkedon, tt's not the same thing. Please don't compare Palestine with Armenians. Millions of Turks were killed by Armenians. But Turks do not keep on behaving like Jews talking about their past and making everyone pity them and covering up their own past !!
Armenians have their own country. Greeks has their own country.
People in Turkey do not have any hatred towards anyone even though everyone attacked us!
If you can't get over your past, you're stuck in it.
Instead, we look to the future.
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Post by oszkarthehun on May 14, 2009 22:25:30 GMT -5
Come on Chalkedon, tt's not the same thing. Please don't compare Palestine with Armenians. Millions of Turks were killed by Armenians. But Turks do not keep on behaving like Jews talking about their past and making everyone pity them and covering up their own past !! Armenians have their own country. Greeks has their own country. People in Turkey do not have any hatred towards anyone even though everyone attacked us! If you can't get over your past, you're stuck in it. Instead, we look to the future. Thracian are you really serious when you say "millions" sure some Armenians did kill some Turks but I think you are highy exagerating dont you think.Can you really prove that anywhere near even 1 million Turks were killed by Armenians? compared to the number of Armenians that were killed. I have seen several articles by Turks themselves who have said even if it wasnt a premeditated Genocide against the Armenians in the end it was by effect a Genocide. Jews lost 6 million people in WW2 its no suprise they are complaining about that. Israel is a different issue I agree tghe authority in Israel often acts like Nazis themselves. They should know better. Lets be honest Turks at one time inhabited or controlled a lot of land but in reality they were basically colonists/collonisers similiar to the British, so much of the land they lost didnt originally belong to them. Armenia now has a small country but Armenians were the historical inhabitants of much of Eastern Turkey and many of those Armenians were either effectively killed off or displaced. Many Turks may not but their are the Ultranatonalists that probably do after all Hrant Dink was killed in Turkey by Ultranationalists only few years ago. So Turkey still has Ultrnationalists and still has her Wolves right ?
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Post by thracian08 on May 21, 2009 19:17:32 GMT -5
Of course I am serious. Sources indicate at least 2 million Turks died as well. And there weren't 2 Million Armenians even living in the Ottoman Empire at the time. Actually, the Armenians exxagerate their figures.
There is 2 sides to every story Os. You should know that many more Turks died in this conflict, but because the Armenians want a Genocide to be recognized so that they can obtain land and money just like the Jews, and because of their strong lobby in the US and Europe, they only present their point of view.
Actually to be considered a Genocide, it has to be premeditated. That' s the definition. And this was not a Genocide.
Turks deported some Armenians and fought against others. And Armenians killed Turks just as well.
Armenians shouldn't have started killing Turks - innocent civilians. Did you know there were no soldiers in the East during the time Armenian starting killing Turks? That means they were killing Turkish civilians. My great grandfather would tell us stories of many wounded soldier during the war. Additionally, one of my father's nanny's entire family was killed by Armenians.
When she was young in Erzurum, she heard that the Armenians were coming. So all the men who were at a war fighting age left the village, and everyone else who were kids and the elderly stayed in the village. When the Armenians came, she hid in a bush. She witnessed her entire village massacred. After the war, my grandfather sent out radio alerts for her to find out family numerous times. She was left without a family, and my great grandmother adopted her and took care of her her entire life.
The Ottomans documented everything extremely diligently. There is no mention in the archives of any plans to exterminate Armenians.
Also, the Armenians of Istanbul were not touched. It was only those Armenians who wanted to separate from the Ottomans who were fought against.
Of course Turks had to defend themselves - it's called a civil war.
The Turks in the East fought back and many were killed. At the same time, Turks were fighting in the Balkans. Total Turks killled in those wars is 4 MILLION. That is a lot of people.
No actually Jews keep on talking about the Holocaust today, even though the way they treat Palestinians is very Nazi like themselves. They want pity, and everyone to worship them. I disagree with their behavior.
It doesn't matter if the Ottomans land was previously inhabitated by other people, don't you understand that if someone conquers, they rule?? No one can claim any historical habitat. T
I am speaking in general, people in Turkey do not hate anyone. No one is taught to hate anyone in the schools or any other governmental institutions. There are still some ultranationalists, but they are never the majority.
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Post by oszkarthehun on May 26, 2009 6:12:37 GMT -5
In your previous post you said Armenians killed millions of Turks. You are now talking about how many Turks died in war this is different thing to what you said before which was that Armenians s killed millions of Turks. Again where does it show Armenians killed anywhere near even 1 million Turks or even half of that .
they the Armenians were ethnically cleansed from their historical places in Eastern Turkey . Many non Armenian and even some Turk people believe it was a genocide in the end I believe at very least it was an ethnic cleansing and by effect a Genocide.
maybe Armenians would have been less likely to side with Russians if Ottoman authority listened to there earlier requests to have some protection against the Kurds who had been terrorising them and the unfair laws of the land against Christian peoples at the time.
Yes terrible things happen in war times there is no real excuse and of course terrible things happened on both sides but that in itself does not determine if it was genocide or not. The majority of international oppinion believes it was a Genocide.
If Turkish authorities feel very confident about their case why dont they take it to the highest courts to prove they didnt commit genocide or that they are being wrongly accused so they can clear their name once and for all, after all if their records are so good and their case is so strong so why they never have done this. If a man was wrongly accused of something and he had such good proof of his innocence which such good supporting records etc then wouldnt he rather clear his name.
[/quote]
what about the several hundred Armenian intellectuals that were rounded up in Istanbul who were no where near Eastern Turkey.
so they had to defend themselves from the Armenian civillian women and children that were also slaughtered and or dragged to the desert and left to die.
it seems you are lumping all the christian people together and calling them Armenians, because you have said Armenians killed millions of Turks, you should know that remark simply is huge exaggeration.
The Israeli authority treats Palestinians badly and often act like Nazis on the other hand Palestinian authority historically has done very little to move towards any peaceful solution either, the Arab position and the same sentiment that basically started the ongoing conflict has generally always been "drive the Jews to the sea".
Did you know it was actually the Ottomans who first started selling land in Israel to the Jews when it was under Ottoman rule. And it was Ottomans who was conquerers of this land and ruled it before it was partitiond between Israel and Palestine right. And Arabs and British fought against Ottomans right.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 2, 2009 18:07:34 GMT -5
Look at the Ottoman archives and you will find that.
No it is not. There was a war, and fighting between both sides occurred. There are no documents to show that the Ottomans wanted to eradicate the Armenian race. The Ottomans kept records of everything.
The Kurds are a lawless nation. Their aghas control their lands, and their own people. How can the Ottomans control the Kurds when they were also fighting against the Ottomans??
This is a huge war, with Ottomans fighting in the Balkans and in Eastern Turkey. Initially, there were no troops in eastern Turkey. So the Armenian civilians that died mostly died by Kurdish bandits and from hunger - not from killing by the Turks. Additionally, back then it was not like the USA military is now. What I mean is the Ottoman military did not even have shoes, let alone supplies for Armenians!
You need to place everything in context.
The international opinion you speak about is Armenian lobbies in Europe and USA. Not anyone else. Whenever Turkey says to Armenians to look at the Ottoman archives, they say they don't.
Armenians have a different agenda, to get back land and reparations just like the Jews.
The death rate in Eastern Turkey was 75%. I am not lumping them alltogether, 2 Million Turks died in Balkan Wars, and 2 M Turks died in Eastern Turkey. It is not an exaggeration, it's true !
Yes, I do know the Ottoman Empire consisted of that area. That has nothing to do with the issue.
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 3, 2009 7:01:27 GMT -5
history cannot be rewritten thracian...the reason the armenians do not want to discuss the issue is simple...there is nothing to discuss. Turks may have died but they were an occuping force. Just like americans dying in iraq...you cannot compare. Armenians lost a homeland..you created one, so stop trying to equalise everything..
we are not trading carpets here...
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 4, 2009 13:50:23 GMT -5
That's not the issue Chalk. The issue is that Armenians avoid looking at the Archives b/c they will not be able to find out anything about a planned extermination of their people. They have a different agenda - to get land and money just like the Jews. The fact that 2Mil. Turks died in the East shows there was no genocide. You cannot compare it with the US occupying Iraq. Not the same at all ! Ottoman's were an Empire. Armenians lost the war - people lose wars! I think all you Euro's think that because you used to live in 1 land that you own it forever. hahahah, you wish You cannot accept that you were defeated. Get over it ! There were many different cilizations in Anatolia, Turks, Greeks, Byzantines, Romans Persians. No one can claim any land without winning a war. Stop constantly writing idiotic remarks about trading carpets. You are typical Eurocentric Christian mentality who only likes your kind. Turks ruled the Ottomans!
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 5, 2009 8:09:17 GMT -5
and you are a typical turk that still has the " bazzarr " mentality. I never said you dont win anything in war...but to completely extinguish a native population of greeks and armenians and not to expect that coming back to haunt you is just as stupid....
By your logic, the nazi's were just fighting a war and cooking millions of jews in the furnace as a part of this war. We greeks do not fight these types of wars....if we win, we will win w/ pride. Not extermination of ppl.....
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 5, 2009 17:49:49 GMT -5
You are bizzare! My point is that Armenians lost the war, is the whole reason why Armenians are campaigning so much b/c they want land and money.
We did not do what you were saying. Don't compare the Nazi's with the Turks, there was no war between the Germans and the Jews !
It's like the Mexicans in the USA saying we want our own country. If you were the leader, what would you do if Mexicans started killing Americans?? You would fight against them to protect your soveringty and that's what was done WWI.
We did not extinguish the entire population like you say. Armenians population the in Ottoman Empire is much less than Armenians report it today. They got their own country named Armenia. Many Armenians moved to Arab countries and the Armenians who live in middle and western Turkey were not even touched. If they wanted to get rid of all Armenians they would have but they didn't. They fought against the ones that started killing Turks in Eastern Turkey. The Ottomans of course have a right to defend themselves.
Please take a look at the article below:
Armenian Issue Revisited
The Armenian Allegation of Genocide: FACTS
The issue: Whether during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire genocide was perpetrated against Ottoman Armenian citizens in Eastern Anatolia.
The Ottoman Empire ruled over all of Anatolia and significant parts of Europe, North Africa, the Caucasus and Middle East for over 700 years. Lands once Ottoman dominions today comprise more than 30 independent nations.
A century of ever-increasing conflict, beginning roughly in 1820 and culminating with the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, characterized the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. The imperiled empire contracted against an onslaught of external invaders and internal nationalist independence movements. In this context must the tragic experience of the Ottoman Armenians of Eastern Anatolia be understood. For during these waning days of the Ottoman Empire did millions die Muslim, Jew and Christian alike.
Yet Armenian Americans have attempted to extricate and isolate their history from the complex circumstances in which their ancestors were embroiled. In so doing, they describe a world populated only by white-hatted heroes and black-hatted villains. Infusing history with myth, Armenian Americans vilify the Republic of Turkey, Turkish Americans, and ethnic Turks worldwide. Bent on this prosecution, Armenian Americans choose their evidence carefully, omitting facts that tend to exonerate those whom they presume guilty, ignoring important events and verifiable accounts, and sometimes relying on dubious or prejudiced sources and even falsified documents.
Any attempt to challenge the credibility of witnesses, or the authenticity of documents is either wholly squelched or met with accusations of genocide denial. Moreover, attempts to expose the suffering and needless death of millions of innocent non-Christians enmeshed in the same events as the Anatolian Armenians are greeted with sneers, as if to say that some lives are inherently more valuable than others and that one faith is more deserving than another. The lack of real debate ensures that any consideration of what genuinely occurred nearly a century ago in Eastern Anatolia will utterly fail as a search for the truth.
Ultimately, whether to blindly accept the Armenian American portrayal is an issue of fundamental fairness and the most cherished of American rights - free speech. Simply put, in America every person has the opportunity to tell his or her story. However, Armenian Americans seek to deny this very right to others by branding anyone who disagrees with their portrayal a "genocide denier." The complete story of the vast suffering of this period has not yet been written. When that story is told, the following facts must not be forgotten.
FACT 1: Demographic studies prove that prior to World War I fewer than 1.5 million Armenians lived in the entire Ottoman Empire. Thus, allegations that more than 1.5 million Armenians from eastern Anatolia died must be false.
Figures reporting the pre-World War I Armenian population vary widely, with Armenian sources claiming far more than others. British, French and Ottoman sources give total figures of 1.05-1.50 million. Only certain Armenian sources claim a pre-war population larger than 1.50 million. Comparing these to post-war figures yields a rough estimate of losses. Boghos Nubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in 1920, noted that significant numbers survived the war. He declared that after the war 280,000 Armenians remained in the Anatolian portion of the occupied Ottoman Empire while 700,000 Armenians had emigrated to other countries. Historian and demographer, Dr. Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville, calculates the actual losses as slightly less than 600,000. This figure agrees with those provided by British historian Arnold Toynbee, French missionary, Monseigneur Touchet, and others.
FACT 2: Over 2.5 million Muslims died during the same period from similar causes.
Armenians suffered a high mortality. But one must likewise consider the number of non-Christian dead. The statistics tell us that more than 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims also perished. Thus, the years 1912-1922 constitute a horrible period for humanity, not just for Armenians. Documents of the time describe intercommunal violence, forced migration of all ethnic groups, disease, and famine as causes of death.
FACT 3: Armenian American evidence of genocide is derived from dubious and prejudicial sources.
Armenian Americans purport that the wartime propaganda of the enemies of the Ottoman Empire constitutes objective evidence. Oft-quoted Ambassador Henry Morgenthau stated in correspondence with President Wilson that he intended to uncover or manufacture news that would goad the U.S. into joining the war, and thus he sought to malign the Ottoman Empire, an enemy of the Triple Entente. Moreover, Morgenthau relied on politically motivated Armenians; his primary aid, translator and confidant was Arshag Schmavonian, his secretary was Hagop Andonian. Morgenthau professed that the Turks were an inferior race. Thus, his accounts can hardly be considered objective.
Compare the wartime writings of Morgenthau and the oft-cited J.G. Harbord to the post-war writings of Admiral Mark L. Bristol, U.S. Ambassador to the Republic of Turkey 1920-1926. In a March 28,1921 letter he wrote, "[R]eports are being freely circulated in the [U.S.] that the Turks massacred thousands of Armenians in the Caucasus. Such reports are repeated so many times it makes my blood boil. The Near East Relief have the reports from Yarrow and our own American people which show absolutely that such Armenian reports are absolutely false. The circulation of such false reports in the United States, without refutation, is an outrage and is certainly doing the Armenians more harm than good.... Why not tell the truth about the Armenians in every way?"
FACT 4: The Armenian deaths do not constitute genocide.
A. Boghos Nubar addressed a letter to the Times of London on January 30,1919 confirming that the Armenians were indeed belligerents in World War I. He stated with pride, "In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Mazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks...."
Between 1893 and 1915 Ottoman Armenians in eastern Anatolia rebelled against their government -the Ottoman government -- and joined Armenian revolutionary groups, such as the notorious Dashnaks and Hunchaks. They spearheaded a massive Russian invasion of Eastern Anatolia. On November 5, 1914, the President of the Armenian National Bureau in Tblisi declared to Czar Nicholas II, "From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks for the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms." In the service of the Russians, traitorous Armenians massacred over 60,000 Muslims in the city of Van alone.
B. The allegation of genocide is illogical. In the words of eminent historian Bernard Lewis, speaking to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz on January 23,1998, "The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute." (translation)
C. None of the Ottoman orders commanding the relocation of Armenians, which have been reviewed by historians to date, orders killings. To the contrary, they order Ottoman officials to protect relocated Armenians. Unfortunately, where Ottoman control was weak, Armenian relocatees suffered most. The stories of the time give examples of columns of hundreds of Armenians guarded by as few as two Ottoman gendarmes. When local Muslims attacked the columns, Armenians were robbed and killed. These Muslims had themselves suffered greatly at the hands of Armenians and Russians. Conversely,where Ottoman control was strong, Armenians went unharmed. In Istanbul and other major Western Anatolian cities, large populations of Armenians remained throughout the war, their churches open.
D. The term "genocide" did not exist prior to 1944. It was later defined quite specifically by the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention of the Crime of Genocide. The standard of proof in establishing the crime of genocide is formidable given the severity of the crime, the opportunity for overlap with other crimes, and the stigma of being charged with or found guilty of the crime. While presenting the Convention for ratification, the Secretary General of the U.N. emphasized that genocide is a crime of "specific intent," requiring conclusive proof that members of a group were targeted simply because they were members of that group. The Secretary General further cautioned that those merely sharing political aims are not protected by the convention.
Under this standard of proof, the Armenian American claim of genocide fails. First, no direct evidence has been discovered demonstrating that any Ottoman official sought the destruction of the Ottoman Armenians as such. Second, Ottoman Armenian revolutionaries confessedly waged war against their own government. Under these circumstances, it was the Ottoman Armenians' violent political alliance with the Russian forces, not their ethnic or religious identity, which rendered them subject to the relocation.
FACT 5: The British convened the Malta Tribunal to try Ottoman officials for crimes against Armenians. All of the accused were acquitted.
In 1919 The British High Commission in Istanbul, utilizing Armenian informants, arrested 144 high Ottoman officials and deported them to the island of Malta for trial on charges of harming Armenians. While the deportees were interned in Malta, the British appointed an Armenian scholar, Mr. Haig Khazarian, to conduct a thorough examination of the Ottoman, British, and U.S. archives to substantiate the charges. Though granted complete access to all records, Khazarian's corps of investigators discovered an utter lack of evidence demonstrating that the Ottoman officials either sanctioned or encouraged killings of Armenians. The British Procurator General exonerated and released all 144 detainees - - after two years and four months of detention without trial. No compensation was ever paid to the detainees.
FACT 6: Despite the acquittals by the Malta Tribunal, Armenian terrorists have engaged in a vigilante war that continues today.
In 1921, a secret Armenian network, named Nemesis, took the law into its own hands and hunted down and assassinated several former Ottoman Ministers, among them Talat Pasha and Jemal Pasha. Following in Nemesis' footsteps, during the 1970's and 1980's the Armenian terrorist groups ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia) and JCAG (Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide) committed over 230 armed attacks, killing 71 innocent people, including 31 Turkish diplomats, and seriously wounding over 520 people in a campaign of blood revenge.
FACT 7: The Holocaust bears no meaningful relation to the Ottoman Armenian experience.
1. Jews neither demanded the dismemberment of the nations in which they had lived nor did they kill their fellow citizens. By contrast, Ottoman Armenians openly agitated for a separate state in lands in which they were numerically inferior. With determination they committed mass treason, and took up arms against their government. They also massacred local Muslim and Jewish civilians.
2. The guilt of the perpetrators of the Holocaust was proven at Nuremberg. By contrast, those alleged to have been responsible for the maladministration of the relocation policies were exonerated at Malta by the World War I victors.
3. Hitler did not refer to the Armenians in plotting the Final Solution; the infamous quote is fraudulent. For this reason it was rejected as evidence by the Nuremberg tribunal.
4. Armenians collaborated with the Nazis, forming the 812th Battalion of the [Nazi] Wehrmacht, and its successor, the Armenian legion. Armenians published Anti-Jewish, pro-Nazi propaganda in the Armenian-language Hairenik daily and the Armenian weekly journal.
The depth and volume of scholarship on the Holocaust is tremendous. By contrast, much about the late Ottoman Empire has yet to be learned and many conclusions have yet to be drawn.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 8, 2009 6:57:10 GMT -5
when Ottomans conquered Armenia wasnt their agenda to get land and money/riches .
How many of the slayed and removed Armenians were non combatants. War , it may have been an uprising and some alliances with Russian troops but I dont know if any official Armenian declaration of war on Turkey was made. Reality was Turkish population vs Armenian population wasnt comparable and Turkey was really at War withmuch larger more powerful forces whom some Armenian combatants were allied with. Otherwise Armenaisn were Christians in a Muslim country that was at war with Christin countries and thats why all Christians in Turkey were targeted.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Aug 15, 2009 23:18:36 GMT -5
The Ottoman Empire 1700-1922, 2005, by Donald Quataert.
Donald Quartet is Professor of History at Binghampton University, State University of New York. He has published many books on Middle East and Ottoman history, including An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1914.
The Armenian massacres of 1915 - 1916 ,pg's 186 - 189.
Both the scale and frequency of violence among Ottoman communal groups increased during the nineteenth century. Unparalleled in ferocity and scope were the attacks against the Ottoman Armenian population.
These began with massacres of Armenians in 1895 - 1896 which were repeated in 1908, 1909, and again in 1912. In this last set of assualts, recently arrived Muslim refugees from lost provinces in the Balkans played an important role.
During the Balkan wars, vast numbers of Muslims had been driven from European provinces, to towns such as Tekirdag/Rodosto and Malgara on the north of the Marmara Sea and in Adapazari in west Anatolia.
In these places the refugees vented their frustration and anger on hapless and innocent Ottoman Armenians. By far the worst however were the massacres of 1915 - 1916. An estimated 600,000 Armenian Ottoman subjects died during and after deportation from their east Anatolian homes, as they moved towards the Arab provinces.
The story begins as war erupted in 1914 between Russia and the Ottomans along the east Anatolian frontier. With Russian invaders came Armenian soldiers as well as some Ottoman Armenians who had defected to the enemy.
In 1915, Ottoman Young Turk ruling circles issued orders for the deportation of the entire Armenian populuation of East Anatolia out of the battle zone,southward to the Syrian deserts.
These orders exixt and can be examined and read , they are authentic materials and not forgeries or part of a hoax and are full of directives commanding the protection and care of the deportees and their properties.
Order after order speaks of the need to guard the deportees and their property and issue their safety.
Those deported often walked as their were few trains, and as they walked they suffered and some died of malnutrition or an accompanying disease .Others died at the hands of bandits or other Ottoman civillians who preyed on the weak.
But, the solicitious state documents not withstanding , there is abundant evidence that low and high Ottoman officers, soldiers and bureacrats - the very perons who has the sworn responsibilty to defend and protect the lives o all Ottoman subjects regardless of religion or ethnicity - murdered vast numbers of Armenian civillians , men women and children alike .
Moreover, the patterns of the killings were chillingly similiar in the variuous areas, powerfully suggesting the presence of a coordinated program.
How can we reconcile the orders commanding care and diligence with the murderous and apparently coordinated slaughter by state military and civil officials ?
Consider this assesment of the events, one that seems to be gaining acceptance among scholars on both sides of the controversy.
There was a circle , acting like a state within a state, within the ruling Committee of Union and Progress group. Coming to power in early 1913, members of this circle secretly sought to use deportation as a guise for exterminating the Armenians.
As World War 1 developed , they increasingly feared the potential ability of Armenian revolutionary organizations to overthrow the Ottoman state and /or the consequences of mass Armenian defections in east Anatolia to the Russians.
Under the leadership o Talat Pasha , a major Union and Progress figure , the group employed the Special Organization (Teskilat Mahsusa) to carry out the massacres outside the formal government apparatus and lines of communication. This parallel organization organized and coordinated the killings , often using government officials and troops who were its members.
The Special Organization sent directives to the many locations where the killings occured , using its own networks rather than state channels of communication.
Since the records of both the Special Organization and the Committe of Union and Progress were either lost or destroyed , this argument cannot be established without doubt .
On the evidence presented it seems plausible that high ranking officials of the Ottoman state , utilizing the Special Organization directed a concerted , centrally orchestrated program that murdered massive numbers of Ottoman Armenians.
Asking the question whether this crisis was the first twentieth - century genocide runs the risk of being submerged in semantic arguments and thus avoiding the real issues.
After all, most Armenians died because of their presumed identity, not because of their own actions or beliefs.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Aug 15, 2009 23:21:04 GMT -5
Back in 1985, Prof. Donald Quataert, Associate Professor of History at the University of Houston, and 68 of his pro-Turkish colleagues signed a joint statement questioning the veracity of the Armenian Genocide and asking the U.S. Congress not to approve a commemorative resolution on this crime against humanity. That denialist statement, paid for by the Assembly of Turkish American Associations, was published as a half-page ad in the May 19, 1985 editions of the Washington Post and the New York Times. Incidentally, Prof. Quataert, along with scores of other scholars, had received funding from the Institute of Turkish Studies (ITS) and other Turkish sources. The ITS was founded in 1982 by the Turkish government in Washington, D.C., with a $3 million grant. Last week, an unexpected revelation was made concerning Prof. Quataert who had served as Chairman of the ITS Board of Governors from 2001 until the end of 2006. Prof. Mervat Hatem, President of the Middle East Studies Association, sent a letter to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, expressing her outrage at the dismissal of Dr. Quataert from the ITS Chairmanship. The MESA letter revealed that Prof. Quataert was forced to resign "after he refused to accede to the request of ITS's honorary chairman, [Turkey's] Ambassador [in Washington] Nebi Sensoy, that he issue a retraction of a scholarly book review he wrote" about the Armenian Genocide. The letter also indicated that "unnamed high officials in Ankara" had "threatened to revoke the funding of ITS if he [Quataert] did not publicly retract statements made in his review or separate himself from the Chairmanship of the ITS." Prof. Hatem expressed her serious concern that "the reputation and integrity of the ITS, as a non-political institution funding scholarly projects that meet stringent academic criteria, is blackened when there is government interference in and blatant disregard for the principle of academic freedom." She reminded Prime Minister Erdogan that the dismissal of "Dr. Quataert sharply contrasts with your government's recent call to leave the debate regarding the events of 1915 to the independent study and judgment of scholars." Prof. Hatem concluded her letter by asking the Turkish authorities to reinstate Prof. Quataert as chairman and place ITS funds in "an irrevocable trust immune from political interference and infringement of academic freedom." Copies of the MESA letter were sent to Amb. Sensoy, the ITS Board and the President of Georgetown University where the Turkish Institute is housed. Prof. Quataert's difficulties started when in Fall 2006 the Journal of Interdisciplinary History published his review of Donald Bloxham's book, The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism, and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians. In that review, Prof. Quataert boldly criticized Turkish scholars' work on the Armenian Genocide by stating that "they were not writing critical history but polemics ... Many of their works were directly sponsored and published by the Turkish government ... " [ b]Dr. Quataert noted that the "wall of silence" of Turkish scholars on the Armenian Genocide was "crumbling." Despite his earlier objection to the word genocide, he explained why he had decided to use that term for the first time in his book review. While acknowledging that his reference to the Armenian Genocide "may provoke anger among some of my Ottomanist colleagues," he said that not doing so "runs the risk of suggesting denial of the massive and systematic atrocities that the Ottoman state and some of its military and general populace committed against the Armenians." Prof. Quataert further observed: "Indeed, ...accumulating evidence is indicating that the killings were centrally planned by Ottoman government officials and systematically carried out by their underlings." He concluded the book review by admitting that "what happened to the Armenians readily satisfies the U.N. definition of genocide." Dr. Gocek, Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, sent a letter to the ITS last week, expressing her surprise that she was still on its Board. She said that no one from ITS had contacted her in more than five years. She described Prof. Quataert's dismissal "as an infringement on his academic freedom" and the Turkish government's funding of ITS "with strings attached" as "unethical."[/b] Prof. Quataert's transformation from a denialist to a believer in the Armenian Genocide is based on the growing body of scholarship in recent years both within and outside Turkey. A comparison of the 2000 and 2005 editions of his book, The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922, illustrates the gradual evolution of his position on the Armenian Genocide. In a sharp departure from the cautious language used in his first edition, Dr. Quataert in the 2005 edition of his book points out the organized nature of the killings: "The patterns of killings were chillingly similar in the various areas, powerfully suggesting the presence of a coordinated program." He further states: "On the evidence presented, it seems plausible that high-ranking officials of the Ottoman state, utilizing the Special Organization, directed a concerted, centrally orchestrated program that murdered massive numbers of Ottoman Armenians." Finally, Dr. Quataert comes to the conclusion in his 2006 book review that what had happened to the Armenians in 1915 was indeed a Genocide.
The Turkish government now has a new scandal on its hands, thanks to the reckless behavior of its Ambassador in Washington, who clearly violated the academic freedom of a prominent American scholar. The Ambassador's actions should embarrass the Turkish government in front of not only the public at large but also the academic community worldwide. This scandal may also cause the Internal Revenue Service to look into possible violations of U.S. laws by ITS in view of the improper control of an American non-profit organization by a foreign government. Georgetown University officials may also review their association with ITS, given the latter's blatant violation of academic freedom.
Once again, the Turkish government has been caught trying to export its gag rule on the Armenian Genocide beyond its borders to Washington, D.C. Indeed, as the MESA President pointed out in her letter, Prof. Quataert's dismissal exposes the Turkish government's lack of sincerity in suggesting that scholars rather than politicians should deal with the Armenian Genocide issue.[/]
www.campus-watch.org/article/id/5203
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Post by oszkarthehun on Sept 11, 2009 7:17:16 GMT -5
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Post by hellboy87 on Dec 21, 2009 23:03:10 GMT -5
4 million Turks died?
Really? How? Only the Russians had a bigger army then them,so how could have Armenians kill that 2 million Turks?
Turks,never want to admit to any wrongs,mistakes etc. Only the positive,the grandiose.Thats the Turks.
I mean look at Ataturk and his Sun Language Theory and the He Who Is Proud is a Turk BS
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