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Post by theblackswans on Jul 6, 2008 15:13:55 GMT -5
Not as long as greedy foreign and Muslim politicians continue centralizing the political/economic structures of Bosnia. How so? All they want is for BiH to function like a country and not have 150 ministers and three presidents. They want to eliminate useless positions that the post-war political thief's and crooks took. A country that little should not have three f**king presidents. Thats insane. Your exactly right, I am sure if we had better leadership in the world as well who actually cared this mess would already be cleaned up. Dayton was never intended to be the future constitution of the state of BiH. In a real federal system all sides have to work to get things done no BS. It just benefits the criminals and politicians all the layers of government and no accountability for what they do or not do. The best way in BiH to get rich is to become a politician!
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Post by theblackswans on Jul 6, 2008 15:15:32 GMT -5
Also there is a sense of entitlement from the people in the government who were in leadership positions in the military or political during the war. As if the state is owned by them!
That is a tired way to act, but it is useful when you feed on the fears of the people and sow discontent about what the "others" want to do in BiH...
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Post by zgembo on Jul 6, 2008 15:59:36 GMT -5
Because it doesn't fit with their seperatist visions for BiH! There has always been cooperation and support in BiH even during the darkest hour. What Bosnia needs is a stronger Federal system and economic prosperity and 90% of this would no longer be an argument. Lets not forget that economic hardship preceded the rise of nationalism in Yugoslavia. In the same way nationalism has receded in Croatia and Slovenia in part to the economic growth experianced in the country. Nationalism in Croatia and Slovenia receded because multi-culturalism died (Slovenia seperated and Croatia chased out its minority). If Krajina still existed as an autonomous entity within Croatia, the level of nationalism in Croatia would be much higher. A stronger Federal system for Bosnia means centralizing the country even more. That has a counter-effect and leads to reactionary nationalism on an even greater scale. Milosevic tried to creater a stronger federal system in Yugoslavia and it led to greater nationalism, separatism and war.
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Post by zgembo on Jul 6, 2008 16:26:58 GMT -5
croats of BiH today accept that they are part of BiH, but they just get pissed off with being outvoted by the other ethnic group when they try to pass things through the parliament to help their community. Do you realize that is because the number of Croats is low in BiH. I highly doubt Bosniacs had the time to form such an evil plan to outshadow Bosnian Croats. From what I understand, the current president of FBiH is a Bosnian Croat lady. Croats don't have anyone else to blame but themselves. More and more Croats opt to leave BiH and work in Croatia instead of trying to make BiH better for all so this way they wouldn't have to leave to work in Croatia and then complain about the shortage of Croats in BiH. They leave and live abroad and then complain about how there are less and less Croats in BiH and Bosniacs are outvoting them. f**king-duh, seriously, this isn't a scientific problem. Stop moving to Croatia and other places and stay within BiH and work out the issues there. For every Bosniac and Serb who hates Croats, there are few more Bosniacs and Serbs who want to co-exist and work with Croats. Pick your battles and pick your crew. Not everyone is the same. If Croats in Hercegovina acted more like the Croats in Tuzla/Sarajevo/Zenica and etc, this would not be an issue. Yet they put more time and effort into complaining than trying to solve a problem that effects the entire federation. It's quite easy to say that a disenfrachised minority should stop complaining and instead work to improve the lot of the entire country (or entity) when you belong to the majority. Why should Croats help improve a country where they and their identity is not valued? Instructing them to assimilate like Tuzla/Sarajevo/Zenica Croats doesn't exactly value them either. No wonder they'd rather live in Croatia.
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Post by theblackswans on Jul 6, 2008 19:22:25 GMT -5
Because it doesn't fit with their seperatist visions for BiH! There has always been cooperation and support in BiH even during the darkest hour. What Bosnia needs is a stronger Federal system and economic prosperity and 90% of this would no longer be an argument. Lets not forget that economic hardship preceded the rise of nationalism in Yugoslavia. In the same way nationalism has receded in Croatia and Slovenia in part to the economic growth experianced in the country. Nationalism in Croatia and Slovenia receded because multi-culturalism died (Slovenia seperated and Croatia chased out its minority). If Krajina still existed as an autonomous entity within Croatia, the level of nationalism in Croatia would be much higher. A stronger Federal system for Bosnia means centralizing the country even more. That has a counter-effect and leads to reactionary nationalism on an even greater scale. Milosevic tried to creater a stronger federal system in Yugoslavia and it led to greater nationalism, separatism and war. Nice use of distorting the truth through omission, it is the only way you apologists can try to make a point. A stronger Federal Serbian Yugoslavia that was the rub... His response to a collapsing Yugoslavia was to make Serbia the dominate force in Yugoslavia, not a good idea if he actually wanted to keep the state federated. Yugoslavia could have remained as a loose confederation if it wasn't for the nationalists and if the international community had a backbone and some vision and support as well.
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Post by theblackswans on Jul 6, 2008 19:23:44 GMT -5
Do you realize that is because the number of Croats is low in BiH. I highly doubt Bosniacs had the time to form such an evil plan to outshadow Bosnian Croats. From what I understand, the current president of FBiH is a Bosnian Croat lady. Croats don't have anyone else to blame but themselves. More and more Croats opt to leave BiH and work in Croatia instead of trying to make BiH better for all so this way they wouldn't have to leave to work in Croatia and then complain about the shortage of Croats in BiH. They leave and live abroad and then complain about how there are less and less Croats in BiH and Bosniacs are outvoting them. f**king-duh, seriously, this isn't a scientific problem. Stop moving to Croatia and other places and stay within BiH and work out the issues there. For every Bosniac and Serb who hates Croats, there are few more Bosniacs and Serbs who want to co-exist and work with Croats. Pick your battles and pick your crew. Not everyone is the same. If Croats in Hercegovina acted more like the Croats in Tuzla/Sarajevo/Zenica and etc, this would not be an issue. Yet they put more time and effort into complaining than trying to solve a problem that effects the entire federation. It's quite easy to say that a disenfrachised minority should stop complaining and instead work to improve the lot of the entire country (or entity) when you belong to the majority. Why should Croats help improve a country where they and their identity is not valued? Instructing them to assimilate like Tuzla/Sarajevo/Zenica Croats doesn't exactly value them either. No wonder they'd rather live in Croatia. Croats who want to live in Croatia is based on economics and jobs as much if not more than the lack of valuing them by the Sarajevo based Federal government.
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Post by zgembo on Jul 6, 2008 22:32:10 GMT -5
Nationalism in Croatia and Slovenia receded because multi-culturalism died (Slovenia seperated and Croatia chased out its minority). If Krajina still existed as an autonomous entity within Croatia, the level of nationalism in Croatia would be much higher. A stronger Federal system for Bosnia means centralizing the country even more. That has a counter-effect and leads to reactionary nationalism on an even greater scale. Milosevic tried to creater a stronger federal system in Yugoslavia and it led to greater nationalism, separatism and war. Nice use of distorting the truth through omission, it is the only way you apologists can try to make a point. A stronger Federal Serbian Yugoslavia that was the rub... His response to a collapsing Yugoslavia was to make Serbia the dominate force in Yugoslavia, not a good idea if he actually wanted to keep the state federated. Yugoslavia could have remained as a loose confederation if it wasn't for the nationalists and if the international community had a backbone and some vision and support as well. What else is a stronger, federal Bosnia other than a stronger Federal Muslim Bosnia? Serbs were the biggest group in Yugoslavia and they all wanted a more centralized and functional Yugoslavia. Even the IMF wanted that, as the 8-president and 8 central banks structure was incredibly inefficient. It is not like only Serbs supported this either, you had Ante Markovic's (Croat Yugoslav) Reformist party who supported centralization through economic reforms. Muslims are the biggest group in Bosnia and that is why they all want a stronger, more federal state too. Try using that sorry excuse you have of a brain for just a second, and you'll see that the parallel is inescapable.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 7, 2008 1:51:15 GMT -5
Heh, so what's your asnwer? Bosniaks should just wope out and drive out the rest?
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jul 7, 2008 22:49:25 GMT -5
^^^Isn't that whay they really want?
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Post by kapetan on Jul 7, 2008 23:28:11 GMT -5
^^^Isn't that whay they really want? If you're going to assume that it's even safer to assume Serbs would just as soon wipe out the Bosniaks too. On a religious level they have alot more against everything Muslim then we do against anything Christian. A Church never bothered me. I never saw one and thought of it as a threat. Even after the war the amount of attacks against mosques and bosniak graveyards is huge compared to the amount of attacks on churches. Religion means nothing to me, only my land and country. Whoever is loyal to it is fine with me and I'd be happy to live with them. With that said I'd have no problem with "seperatist" or radical Serbs being driven out at this point. If it happend I wouldn't give a s**t. That's just being honest. But I'm not seeking that or rooting for that either.
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Post by zgembo on Jul 8, 2008 23:02:39 GMT -5
Come to think of it, I'd have no problem with sending every Muslim that voted to separate from Yugoslavia back to Turkey. Heck, if somebody slit their throats, I wouldn't give a shit. That is just being honest too, although I am not seeking or actively rooting for it. ;D
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Post by whateva on Jul 9, 2008 3:05:07 GMT -5
Ok, if you said every Muslim back to Saudi Arabia I'd understand. But Turkey?? Muslims have more rights in the US than in Turkey.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jul 9, 2008 11:19:49 GMT -5
Makes sense kapetan, I like your words.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 9, 2008 12:33:57 GMT -5
Come to think of it, I'd have no problem with sending every Muslim that voted to separate from Yugoslavia back to Turkey. Heck, if somebody slit their throats, I wouldn't give a s**t. That is just being honest too, although I am not seeking or actively rooting for it. ;D As if you're telling us something new lmao.
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