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Post by zgembo on Jan 30, 2008 13:15:28 GMT -5
Mig, you didn't provide any proof that Germany was willing to go to war. This is not proof:
Helmut Kohl's government of Germany might have been ready to take more affirmative action if it had not been occupied with its own borders, and if it didn't face such resistance elsewhere in the European Union.
Not only is the statement conditioned by two premises, but more affirmative action doesn't mean going directly to war. Nor could Germany ever get into a war (of the kind you're thinking) on European soil after what happened in WW2. That is pure fantasy.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 30, 2008 14:39:01 GMT -5
Why is it fantasy? Why is it not possible. Nazi Germany and FDR are very two different nations with two different ideologies. FDR was backed by the west. If a situation like that occured, then I see no problems in anyone getting involved.
Let me ask you this question. If such a war commenced, you really think that nobody would intervene?
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Post by zgembo on Jan 30, 2008 15:42:37 GMT -5
I don't think Germany would intervene and I told you why. I don't think any European country would get involved militarily in a Balkan war. Any European country even thinking of sending ground troops to take sides in a Balkan war is completely against the spirit of the EU and the prevailing political/public opinion. I find it ridiculous that I have to prove this to you.
The only country that could have gotten involved would've been the USA, through NATO perhaps, but this wouldn't have happened in the early years (1991-1993) and it wouldn't have included ground troops.
Attacking Croatia full-on didn't make sense for Serbia because there weren't enough people willing to sacrifice their lives in Serbia for that cause. There would've been desertions much like when the JNA attempted to keep Slovenia. Such a war would've been internationally unpopular as well, and could've eventually provoked the wrath of the USA/NATO. Realistically, we could only rely on local Serbs and nationalistic volunteers (i.e. paramilitaries) to fight.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 30, 2008 19:58:04 GMT -5
Maybe they wouldn't have gotten involved in 1990/1991/1992, but as soon as Germany took care of everything after the Re-Unification, they would have proposed an intervention, if not to the UN, then to the EC/EU. The "spirit of the EU' not getting involved in Balkan wars was only due to France and UK only.
Well, your right about the ground troops. The US always had a policy towards the Balkans, not to send in an troops. They only use air power, which they have.
Exactly, and eventually, the war would have ended up as it was, and would have created the same results for the Serb Populace, if not worse.
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Post by zgembo on Jan 30, 2008 20:12:16 GMT -5
Maybe they wouldn't have gotten involved in 1990/1991/1992, but as soon as Germany took care of everything after the Re-Unification, they would have proposed an intervention, if not to the UN, then to the EC/EU. The "spirit of the EU' not getting involved in Balkan wars was only due to France and UK only. Germany would've NEVER sent, nor proposed sending, ground troops to the Balkans. Germany could've NEVER gotten involved in the Balkans militarily if it wasn't within the scope of NATO. Exactly, and eventually, the war would have ended up as it was, and would have created the same results for the Serb Populace, if not worse. I disagree... and the result couldn't have been worse.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 31, 2008 17:20:55 GMT -5
How can you prove that, and how are you so sure of that?
No, it could have been worse. Maybe now even that 4.5% of the Serb populace wouldn't be there. Things can always get worse, always.
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 1, 2008 2:36:27 GMT -5
Germanies reunified in 1990. W. Germany's defense tasks were under the management of GB,USA initially, and NATO later. According to german law, the "Bundeswehr"'s role is *only* defensive, inside the german borders upto 1994. Has germany done anything aggressive just after its reunification, that would ring a lot of bells and whistles. After 1994, the role of the german military was also defensive but could be carried out outside the borders of the country. However *NO* Serb even threatened germany in the post 1991 era. So any direct German involvement does not make any sense. So yes, germany might have some kind of involvement in the form of participating in NATO but not alone. Japan also had to comply to similar restrictions after WWII. Its only today that Japan starts to build a decent military structure. Some info can be found on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr(although, i wouldnt recommend wikipedia for anything that has to do with political matters, however, the above page seems reliable).
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bihvojska
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"A Great Man is Remmbered By What He Has Created Not By What He Has Destoryed"
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Post by bihvojska on Feb 21, 2008 1:04:46 GMT -5
The war in the balkans was complete shit, it shold have happened in the beging but it did, and many did die from it. If the dayton never would have happned i think Bosnia would be much larger, in 1994 serbia was getting really weak and they were pulling out, they had no more money and no one could help them since russia had it own problems, ARBIH and HVO would had owned Banja Luka if the war did continue, serbia was getting weak by the days and Bosna and Croaita were getting stronger, maybe you were right 10 more serbrenicas could have happened but The RS would have never exsisted.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 21, 2008 2:56:34 GMT -5
Yea the war was s**t, you guys were lucky Montenegro didn't take Trebjesa and Dubrovnik when we had the chance.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Feb 21, 2008 22:46:08 GMT -5
You have no idea how wrong you are. In fact, if FRJ sent in the JNA it had at that time, they would have made the war worse for BiH and Croatia. HKoV/HVO/ARBiH were already stretched enough as it is, and that is why Dayton was set. Because nobody had any more will to fight, and there would have been a total breakdown of morale if it did continue. The war was also stopped because there was a fear of a flood of refugees from BiH to Serbia, just as there was from Croatia. Look more into it.
If the war did continue, all 3 parties would pay the ultimate price in manpower, but Bosnia certainly would not be bigger. RS might not exist, but BiH would not be bigger.
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Post by tito on Aug 14, 2008 14:45:12 GMT -5
Antihrvatska politika oba bosanskohercegovaèka HDZ-a 05.08.2008 Povodom novih, sve uèestalijih, zahtjeva Bože Ljubiæa da se u BiH formira treæi entitet, Naša stranka upozorava javnost, a pogotovu Hrvate u BiH, da su takvi zahtjevi suštinski usmjereni protiv hrvatskih, ali ostalih nacionalnih interesa u našoj zemlji. Oba bosanskohercegovaèka HDZ-a svojom militantnom nacionalistièkom politikom vode hrvatski narod u BiH ka demografskoj i svakoj drugoj katastrofi, o èemu svjedoèe i puki statistièki pokazatelji prema kojima je sve manje Hrvata u BiH. Zahtjevi za formiranjem treæeg entiteta znaèe potpuno žrtvovanje Hrvata izvan Hercegovine i njihovo svoðenje u npr. Fojnici, Kreševu, Varešu, Kiseljaku, te kompletnoj Posavini, ali i na prostoru Republike Srpske u obespravljenu, marginaliziranu i diskriminiranu nacionalnu manjinu. Treæi entitet, na drugoj strani, znaèi i nastavak politika rata, odonosno oživaljavanje poraženog tuðamnovskog modela rješavanja nacionalnog pitanja u BiH, smatraju u Našoj stranci.
Božo Ljubiæ i Dragan Èoviæ ne uviðaju da suštinski interes hrvatskog naroda u BiH ne može biti sadržan u formiranju treæeg entiteta, veæ u korijenitoj institucionalnoj reformi zemlje, koja bi ostvarila punu zakonodavnu, politièku, kulturnu, ekonomsku i svaku drugu ravnopravnost svih naroda, nacionalnih manjina, graðanki i graðana. Izloženi antihrvatskoj politici oba HDZ-a, Hrvati u BiH trebaju što prije u širokoj javnoj raspravi definirati osnovne nacionalne interese, postiæi konsenzus i kompromis o ustavnom ureðenju zemlje sa druga dva konstituitivna naroda, ali i sa nacionalnim manjinama i graðankama i graðanima koji nisu nacionalno opredijeljeni. Institucionalna reforma zemlje usklaðena sa meðunarodnim poveljama o ljudskim pravima i pravima nacionalnih manjina, vratila bi bosanskohercegovaèke Hrvate iz sadašnje pozicije politièke marginaliziranosti u punu politièku ravnopravnost, saopšteno je iz Naše stranke.
Naša stranka je uvjerena da je novu, hramoniènu, decentraliziranu Bosnu i Hercegovinu, kao složenu državu u kojoj æe se ostvariti puna etnièka, graðanska i socijalna pravda moguæe graditi zasnivanjem emancipatorskih etnièkih politika u BiH, te njihovim civiliziranjem, ali i odluènim odustajanjem od militantnog nacionalizama kao nastavka politika rata.
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Post by sweetnugs on Aug 14, 2008 16:07:53 GMT -5
Yea the war was s**t, you guys were lucky Montenegro didn't take Trebjesa and Dubrovnik when we had the chance. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA bitch plz.
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bihvojska
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"A Great Man is Remmbered By What He Has Created Not By What He Has Destoryed"
Posts: 268
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Post by bihvojska on Aug 14, 2008 18:28:39 GMT -5
They can say wht they want but Bosna will not split and if some one does have the balls to split one day then dam its gone be a war again, more blood shed for political shit, we dont need that no matter. Now i understand that serbs have been fighting, trying to split and some what the croats but where the hell did Montenegro all the sudden decide to get land. The only land you guys can try to grab is kosovo or Macedonia which im pretty sure both will fight for it.
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Post by tito on Aug 14, 2008 18:50:23 GMT -5
where the hell did Montenegro all the sudden decide to get land. The only land you guys can try to grab is kosovo or Macedonia 260 thousand mountain ni**ers against 2 million proud Kosova-Albanians? Not to mention Albania in Ulcinj and Podgorica.
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Post by terroreign on Aug 14, 2008 20:17:57 GMT -5
Trebinje we can easily take. Macedonia and Kosovo we aren't interested in.
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Post by tito on Aug 18, 2008 15:37:37 GMT -5
BiH President Željko Komšic:
- Prije neki dan sam ovdje razgovarao sa kardinalom i to što je on rekao nije ništa novo. On to ponavlja veæ duže vremena. Kardinal je tu upravu, a druga je stvar što objektivno postoje razlièite politièke opcije meðu, hajde da tako kažem: hrvatskim politièarima u BiH; mada bih ja volio da se to drugaèije definira, a ne po etnièkom principu. I kada sve to razgrnete, kljuèno pitanje je reforma Ustava i definiranje pozicije Hrvata kao naroda u BiH, kao i modela kako æe oni tražiti svoju institucionalnu ravnopravnost. E, tu dolazimo do neslaganja. Neki to vide u posebnoj teritorijalnoj jedinici - zvali to treæi entitet ili federalna jedinica, dok ovi drugi, gdje ja spadam, rješenje vide malo drugaèije. Nisam za to da se vežu teritorija i etnièka pripadnost. Vi morate osigurati jednaka prava svim ljudima na bilo kojem dijelu teritorije BiH, bez obzira jesu li oni veæina ili manjina. Ne treba ih ogranièavati da samo na odreðenoj teritoriji mogu u punom kapacitetu ostvarivati svoja prava.
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