|
Post by mystery on Dec 29, 2008 1:47:00 GMT -5
Do Bosnians like Alija? I can imagine he's considered a hero do the independence but can also be blammed for the war(not his fault). As an Albanian I really don't know what your views are him are but after watching some Doc's and going from my knowledge this guy seems like a good guy who did what was best for his people. He also reminds me of my grandpa so I have a soft spot for him. So hero or not? Enlighten me.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Dec 29, 2008 2:28:19 GMT -5
Depends on the person. Most Bosniaks see him positivly in most things just at different levels.
But even after you list all his negatives, which eveyrone has, he's still the best and only leader we had at the time and we respect him. I personaly feel he was a bit too timid and weak overall.
Croats and Serbs from Bosnia will tell you he's trash of course cuz they were the enemy lolz
But yea he can be called a hero to us for sure. Not a perfect one though.
I guess he's like most historical leaders. The views vary.
|
|
Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
|
Post by Trazi Vise on Dec 29, 2008 2:34:18 GMT -5
Well I have little respect for a man who knew Bosnia would be attacked and did nothing...for some time; However it would have been hard for him to mobilise his own troops (especially with little weaponry) given the situation. I think he had some right ideas, but was used and abused by all sides (they all used eachother anyway).
|
|
|
Post by tito on Dec 29, 2008 7:17:29 GMT -5
Rahmetli Alija Izetbegovic is the father of the modern Bosnian state, if it wasn’t for him Bosnia would still be a hostage inside the Serb-expansionist project named “Yugoslavia” or even worst: split between greater Serbia and greater Croatia. He managed to keep Bosnia’s territorial integrity intact against all odds, and is the second most significant person in Bosnia’s 1000 year long history right after Kulin Ban himself. The only negative thing about him is that he was too merhametli towards the orthodox and catholic traitors who supported the cetnik and ustasha aggression on Bosnia.
|
|
|
Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Dec 29, 2008 9:40:31 GMT -5
I see him as i see Milosevic and Tudjman... Thell all are the same, then Tudjamn and Milosevic screwd alija over later in the war... I dont like him nor do i hate him, hes just nothing special...
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Dec 29, 2008 10:34:36 GMT -5
I see him as i see Milosevic and Tudjman... Thell all are the same, then Tudjamn and Milosevic screwd alija over later in the war... I dont like him nor do i hate him, hes just nothing special... Ya those Croats were a bunch of traitors. After coming off independence that was backed by the west they wanted to split poor Bosnia up. Croats committed Genocide too in the area, its a shame. Loss a lot of respect for Croats. Alija was on his own he really couldn't do anything. There could of been either Bosnia would be split up but less casualties would probably happen or Bosnia would be its own country today.
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Dec 29, 2008 10:53:16 GMT -5
If he's so good then why is he dead?
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Dec 29, 2008 10:59:17 GMT -5
cause he died of old age..... People die you know.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Dec 29, 2008 11:01:53 GMT -5
Depends on the person. Most Bosniaks see him positivly in most things just at different levels. But even after you list all his negatives, which eveyrone has, he's still the best and only leader we had at the time and we respect him. I personaly feel he was a bit too timid and weak overall. Croats and Serbs from Bosnia will tell you he's trash of course cuz they were the enemy lolz But yea he can be called a hero to us for sure. Not a perfect one though. I guess he's like most historical leaders. The views vary. El Kapetan you are right as usual... The only real problems I have is that he was naive in his thinking before and at the begining of the war. Also his opposition to supporting a total liberation war of the entire Bosnian territory was wrong. He made mistakes in thinking the JNA was neutral, allowing attacks on Croat villages in BiH in 1991, disarming of the TO & police etc. He should have left the fighting up to people like Delic, Dudakovic and others...
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Dec 29, 2008 11:10:19 GMT -5
Also the crimes Serbs talk about Bosniaks committing in places like celebici (8 people killed), or the 50 VRS soldiers killed or around Srebrenica (maybe a couple of hundred civillians total in 4 years) were minor in comparision to the tens of thousands killed by the cetniks. There was never a policy of his to commit crimes against others and it shows in the limited charges against members of the Bosnian Defense forces during the war. It's not easy to keep your head when everyone around you (Tudjman, Boban, milosevic, karadizic, abdic) are going crazy and madness is visible everywere...
|
|
|
Post by tito on Dec 29, 2008 11:15:28 GMT -5
Also his opposition to supporting a total liberation war of the entire Bosnian territory was wrong. He made mistakes in thinking the JNA was neutral, allowing attacks on Croat villages in BiH in 1991, disarming of the TO & police etc. He should have left the fighting up to people like Delic, Dudakovic and others... The TO was disarmed before Izetbegovic came to power and he Never allowed any JNA attack. As for the total liberation of the entire Bosnian territory:
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Dec 29, 2008 11:21:39 GMT -5
Also his opposition to supporting a total liberation war of the entire Bosnian territory was wrong. He made mistakes in thinking the JNA was neutral, allowing attacks on Croat villages in BiH in 1991, disarming of the TO & police etc. He should have left the fighting up to people like Delic, Dudakovic and others... The TO was disarmed before Izetbegovic came to power and he Never allowed any JNA attack. As for the total liberation of the entire Bosnian territory: Are you secretly Haris Siljadzic? OK, Izetbegovic never made any mistakes and was sent to Bosnia as devine intervention and all of the Bosniaks killed was a good thing because now there home with God. What is a matter with you? You are a Bosnian version of a cetnik (minus the genocidal excuses). Don't you realize when your polar opposites, you are so extreme that you are exactly the same?
|
|
|
Post by tito on Dec 29, 2008 11:33:02 GMT -5
The TO was disarmed before Izetbegovic came to power and he Never allowed any JNA attack. As for the total liberation of the entire Bosnian territory: Are you secretly Haris Siljadzic? OK, Izetbegovic never made any mistakes and was sent to Bosnia as devine intervention and all of the Bosniaks killed was a good thing because now there home with God. What is a matter with you? You cant expect me not to expose your lies every time you repeat the same stupid Ustasha propaganda that "Izetbegovic allowed JNA attacks", "disarmed the TO" and "didn’t want to liberate all of BiH".
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Dec 29, 2008 20:08:34 GMT -5
cause he died of old age..... People die you know. Excuses.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Dec 29, 2008 23:03:54 GMT -5
Are you secretly Haris Siljadzic? OK, Izetbegovic never made any mistakes and was sent to Bosnia as devine intervention and all of the Bosniaks killed was a good thing because now there home with God. What is a matter with you? You cant expect me not to expose your lies every time you repeat the same stupid Ustasha propaganda that "Izetbegovic allowed JNA attacks", "disarmed the TO" and "didn’t want to liberate all of BiH". Dude you are OC... All of the things I pointed out are true... Izetbegovic was mum on the JNA attacks on Croat villages in BiH in 1991... He allowed the JNA to commit atrocities in Croatia with troops based in BiH in 1991... Then later expected the same troops to defend BiH? When the Serbs placed heavy weapons around Sarajevo and other towns (facing the cities) and the JNA explained it was a drill to defend the city against invasion (obviously a lie) he did nothing to push for there removal (believing he could negotiate with the JNA). He allowed the JNA to disarm the TO, the same arms were redistributed to Serb troops and civillians. Croats in Croatia refused to do the same before the war and it is one of the things that saved them. It's been mentioned in numerous accounts about the war that Izetbegovic didn't want to defend BiH on it's borders of the Drina and Sava... He wanted to protect "Bosniak" towns and cities and pushed for this option. He was more concerned with a Bosniak rump state than the liberation of the entire BiH. I like Izetbegovic but stop acting like he didn't make mistakes or bad choices.... Your defense of all things Bosnian comes straight out of 1950's communist dogma handbook. You should move to North Korea and write stories about the great leader...
|
|
Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
|
Post by Trazi Vise on Dec 29, 2008 23:27:55 GMT -5
^^^I'm glad someone here has a clear head, nice post.
|
|
tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
|
Post by tyson on Dec 30, 2008 0:06:35 GMT -5
Ya those Croats were a bunch of traitors. After coming off independence that was backed by the west they wanted to split poor Bosnia up. Croats committed Genocide too in the area, its a shame. Loss a lot of respect for Croats. Alija was on his own he really couldn't do anything. There could of been either Bosnia would be split up but less casualties would probably happen or Bosnia would be its own country today. wow. you think i give a shyt if you dont like us,.... for your information, alot of croats were against the breaking up of BiH. things are not as clear cut as that,..... at the start of the war, there was 2 ethnic croat armies on BiH. one was called HVO, and the other one was called HOS. HOS fought for a united BiH, and had won many battles against serbs in eastern herzegovina, and bosnia. HVO was for the defense of croats and BiH at the start, but the leadership of HVO, mate boban decided to change the policy of HVO to join croat populated areas in BiH with the rest of croatia. But with that being said, not all HVO units co-operated with mate boban's policy. for egsample HVO units from posavina, tuzla & bihac stayed for a united BiH. HOS leadership was killed by mate boban's henchmen in an ambush, where the HOS leadership was going to meet with mate boban, for negotiations to get mate boban change his policy. because HOS leadership was killed, the HOS soldiers were merged into HVO units. and also croats from herzegovina felt betrayed by izetbegovic from letting the JNA to destroy the ethnic croat inhabited village in ravno in herzegovina, so the JNA could attack dubrovnik from herzegovina. so alot of croats didnt trust izetbegovic because of this. croats were sacrificed because izetbegovic was too much of a pus.sy to oppose milosevic. so there was mistrust of the sarajevo government that they would not protect croats from the serbs. i believe that if izetbegovic tried to stop what happened in ravno, he would win the respect of most croats. but since he didnt, he showed that he didnt really care about croats, but only that muslims werent harmed. also it was more than anything the leadership of HVO, mate boban which adopted that policy, and not the majority of croat peoples. mate boban controlled the HVO army, so he unfairly controlled the destiny of croats in BiH. but with that being said, mate boban and HVO didnt start openwar with armijaBiH. it was the armijaBiH that started open war with HVO. the start of the war between the muslims and croats started when in a barracks in mostar, where both HVO & ABiH stayed at (because they were working together against the serb aggression before they started fighting each other), the ABiH soldiers in the night time took out the bayonets from their rifles, and snuck out of their beds and came into the area where HVO soldiers were resting, and killed them. from then on, open warefare was started between muslims and croats, and it spread from herzegovina to central bosnia. horrible crimes were committed on both sides. so once again, things are not as clear cut as you think. so if you want to hate us croats because of what happened, then kiss my azz. i really could not give a fukk.
|
|
|
Post by boscrocop on Dec 30, 2008 0:45:11 GMT -5
People in the Balkans have a history of having "leaders" who they like for the simple reason of him being their own, rather then his/her competence, actual policies and so on.
As for Bosniacs and Alija. A minority probably loves Alija for his policies. A majority probably say "yeah he was our president, so we like/respect him for that". Then again you would have an other minority that dislikes him for his policies again, probably the same policies the first minority likes him for.
|
|
|
Post by tito on Dec 30, 2008 6:49:30 GMT -5
the start of the war between the muslims and croats started when in a barracks in mostar, where both HVO & ABiH stayed at (because they were working together against the serb aggression before they started fighting each other), the ABiH soldiers in the night time took out the bayonets from their rifles, and snuck out of their beds and came into the area where HVO soldiers were resting, and killed them.Does anyone have a non-Ustasha source that can confirm this? A UN, Nato or Armija BiH report if possible.
|
|
Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
|
Post by Trazi Vise on Dec 30, 2008 6:53:25 GMT -5
tyson is not an ustasha, that's you're source. HVO was not an ustasha movement either.
|
|