Boško Buha
Amicus
Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
Posts: 385
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Post by Boško Buha on Oct 19, 2008 8:16:48 GMT -5
IN MEMORIAM ALIJA IZETBEGOVIÆ 19.10.2003. - 19.10.2008. Danas se navršava 5 godina otkako je naš dragi predsjednik preselio na ahiret. Rahmet ti duši. ALIJA IZETBEGOVIÆ 08.08.1925. - 19.10.2003. Da te nije AlijaTamo gdje je sunce tamo gdje su zvijezde tamo gdje je nebo bez oblaka gdje se ciste duse gnijezde gdje se oci odmicu od mraka
Na tu stranu ja okrecem glavu u te dvore glas me zove sklapam oci, pruzam ruke pustim snove da zaplove
Ne bi sjala ovako jako ova moja lijepa avlija ja bi svjetlo zvao mrakom da te nije Alija
Slutio sam rijeci, slutio sam pjesme mislio da grijeh je, da se ne smije mislio sam nema ko da slusa ima kako nema, slusa moja dusa mislio sam nema ko da slusa ima kako nema, cuje moja dusa Da te nije Alija
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Post by bosanskinovi on Oct 19, 2008 9:33:53 GMT -5
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Post by fazlinho on Oct 19, 2008 12:03:51 GMT -5
El Fatiha.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 13:46:21 GMT -5
The only political leader in the Balkans who escaped the war with a good reputation in place, quite an accomplishment considering what was going on around them at the time.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 19, 2008 13:50:17 GMT -5
Yes he did escape pretty well sitting on a fence for 5 years while sending his son to Zagreb while his fellow countrymen were being massacred. A man to look up to indeed.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 13:53:48 GMT -5
Yes he did escape pretty well sitting on a fence for 5 years while sending his son to Zagreb while his fellow countrymen were being massacred. A man to look up to indeed. I am caught in the middle, parts of me respect him and then I think about how he hung the Bosnian people out to dry at the same time.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 19, 2008 13:58:20 GMT -5
I used to be caught in the middle also, you try and respect but then I realised you can't ignore significant things that occured. You can't ignore the man he really was.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 14:06:09 GMT -5
I used to be caught in the middle also, you try and respect but then I realised you can't ignore significant things that occured. You can't ignore the man he really was. Yeah, I'm still torn though. He didn't resort to the base ethnic hatreds agenda that Tudjman and Milosevic and the others advocated. At the same time he only played lip service to a mutli-ethnic Bosnia in many respects. The only place that truely remained plural was Tuzla and that was because it was out of reach of the Sarajevo SDA authorities. Tuzla even at times came close to a Bihac type situation because they refused to become an apparatus of the SDA. At the same time Izetbegovic should have known what kind of war was looming and ensured that he could protect the people before declaring independance. He really wasn't concerned with protecting Croat or Serb areas of Bosnia and that is were I have my biggest problem with him. At the same time he is the only one of the big leaders who personally wasn't a giant piece of garbage.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 19, 2008 14:09:33 GMT -5
But he had no problem when Croatian forces helped stopping Bihac from becoming another Srebrenica. His big mistake is that he was trying to be good to everyone to get to where he wanted. And not to protect the other entities ie Serb and Croat areas makes him just as bad as the other's.
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Post by tito on Oct 19, 2008 14:39:52 GMT -5
not to protect the other entities ie Serb(RS) and Croat(HRHB) areas makes him just as bad as the other's
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 15:02:53 GMT -5
not to protect the other entities ie Serb(RS) and Croat(HRHB) areas makes him just as bad as the other's I believe she is talking about 1991-92, Like when the JNA/Cetniks attacked Ravno and other croatian towns and villages in Bosnia and no attempt was made to defend the structural integrity of BiH because these towns were Croatian. Also the JNA launched attackes in Dalmatia from Bosnian territory in 1991. As well as situations were Bosniak refugees expelled by cetniks tipped the balance like in Jajce, radicalized the local population and distabalized the local defensive situation. Also a lot of Serbs didn't believe in dividing Bosnia in 1991-92 until it became apparent that the Bosnian authorities were unable or unwilling to defend them.
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Post by tito on Oct 19, 2008 15:42:10 GMT -5
I believe she is talking about... I believe that she herself does not know what she’s is talking about and that the only reason for here never ending BS is the goal of equalizing the enemies of Bosnia with the defenders of Bosnia. 1991-92, Like when the JNA/Cetniks attacked Ravno and other croatian towns and villages in Bosnia and no attempt was made to defend the structural integrity of BiH because these towns were Croatian. Also the JNA launched attackes in Dalmatia from Bosnian territory in 1991. As well as situations were Bosniak refugees expelled by cetniks tipped the balance like in Jajce, radicalized the local population and distabalized the local defensive situation. Enough with the Ustasa rhetoric’s, Bosnia was not an independent state in 1991, which means Alija could not have prevented the JNA. And the cetniks could not have "tipped the balance" in Jajce or anywhere else if the Croats had stayed loyal to Bosnia. Because to true Bosnian Patriots, like the Croats in Sarajevo, it did not matter what refuge group was predominate in their town. If anything the refuges made true patriots even more decisive to fight the cetniks. But obviously not in the case of the HVO-traitors, who are still today looking for excuses for their treason. Also a lot of Serbs didn't believe in dividing Bosnia in 1991-92 until it became apparent that the Bosnian authorities were unable or unwilling to defend them. LOL, how where the Bosnian authorities supposed to defend a people that in the first months after Bosnia’s declaration of independence ethnically cleansed 70% of the territory??
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 17:43:50 GMT -5
I believe she is talking about... I believe that she herself does not know what she’s is talking about and that the only reason for here never ending BS is the goal of equalizing the enemies of Bosnia with the defenders of Bosnia. Enough with the Ustasa rhetoric’s, Bosnia was not an independent state in 1991, which means Alija could not have prevented the JNA. And the cetniks could not have "tipped the balance" in Jajce or anywhere else if the Croats had stayed loyal to Bosnia. Because to true Bosnian Patriots, like the Croats in Sarajevo, it did not matter what refuge group was predominate in their town. If anything the refuges made true patriots even more decisive to fight the cetniks. But obviously not in the case of the HVO-traitors, who are still today looking for excuses for their treason. Also a lot of Serbs didn't believe in dividing Bosnia in 1991-92 until it became apparent that the Bosnian authorities were unable or unwilling to defend them. LOL, how where the Bosnian authorities supposed to defend a people that in the first months after Bosnia’s declaration of independence ethnically cleansed 70% of the territory?? You should cut her some slack, I find her to be quite moderate. I don't consider myself to be an apologist for the Ustasa policies either. I understand BiH was not independent in 1991 but a stronger stance could have been taken in regards to Serbian/JNA agression on Bosnian territory in 1991. How do you think it made those Croats feel that Izetbegovic and the SDA didn't raise an objection to attacking Croat villages inside of BiH? That was a great propaganda victory for Croat extremists like Mate Boban later. If it was Bosniak villages being attacked instead of Croat I am sure they would have responded differently. They also could have sent a strong warning to Belgrade about attacking Bosnia when it wasn't involved in the Croatian/Serbian war in 1991. When I talk about defending BiH including Serbian parts, the Bosnian TO, MUP, Policija and PL should have done a better job preparing for total defense including mixed communities. Many Serbs didn't support the policies of Karadzic in late 1991 early 1992. It wasn't until it was clear that the Sarajevo authorities weren't willing or able to protect them that they ended up moving to Serb held territory or silencing there criticism of the Cetniks in charge. There were those Bosnians who advocated total defense of BiH, not turning over the TO arms in 1991, besieging JNA barracks in BiH like what was done in Croatia and Slovenia, occupying weapons facilities within BiH and defending the country on her natural borders of the Drina and Sava. These policies were rejected by the Izetbegovic/Sarajevo authorities. Some of those advisors of Izetbegovic were rumored to be agents working for KOS in Belgrade hedging there bets in case of the collapse of the Bosnian authorities. Izetbegovic's attempts to molify or prevent a war on Bosnian territory by turning over weapons and appeasing the cetniks proved fatal to thousands of Bosnians. Especially in 1992 when Bosnia wasn't prepared for the coming war. Tito, I like you but please don't close your eyes to the mistakes made by the Sarajevo authorities. It isn't the same as equating guilt on all sides. You have to be objective otherwise you could repeat the mistakes of the past. Also it absolves those in power today for there responsibilities in wartime and currently within the country.
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Post by tito on Oct 19, 2008 18:09:45 GMT -5
How do you think it made those Croats feel that Izetbegovic and the SDA didn't raise an objection to attacking Croat villages inside of BiH? That’s the ustasa perspective on what actually happened. Maybe Izetbegovics greatest mistake was to allow the Croatian war of independence be moved to BiH. Maybe he should have accepted Milosevic proposals of becoming the next president Yugoslavia and sentenced both the republic of Croatia and the ungrateful croat traitors in BiH to total elimination. If it was Bosniak villages being attacked instead of Croat I am sure they would have responded differently. Based on what exactly?? There were those Bosnians who advocated total defense of BiH, not turning over the TO arms in 1991, besieging JNA barracks in BiH like what was done in Croatia and Slovenia, occupying weapons facilities within BiH and defending the country on her natural borders of the Drina and Sava. These policies were rejected by the Izetbegovic/Sarajevo authorities. LOL!! That is just about the most stupid comment from you ever, Bosnia barely survived with the UN recognition, I can only imagine what the JNA cetniks and the Ustasa croats would have done to Bosnia if Alija had been crazy enough to bring Bosnia into war before the UN had recognized Bosnia as an independent state. don't close your eyes to the mistakes made by the Sarajevo authorities. It isn't the same as equating guilt on all sides. not to protect the other entities ie Serb(RS) and Croat(HRHB) areas makes him just as bad as the other's You have to be objective otherwise you could repeat the mistakes of the past. To equalize Izetbegovic with the aggressors(which the enemies of Bosnia always have done) is not objective at all.
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Post by tito on Oct 19, 2008 18:26:27 GMT -5
You should cut her some slack, I find her to be quite moderate. You are right, compared to the cetniks here at the forum who defend the existence of RS she is kind of "moderate". But still an enemy of Bosnia.
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Post by bob1389 on Oct 19, 2008 19:21:16 GMT -5
19.10.2003. - 19.10.2008?
Celebrating his death... as opposed to his life?
ya muzzas are a weird bunch...
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 20:28:04 GMT -5
You should cut her some slack, I find her to be quite moderate. You are right, compared to the cetniks here at the forum who defend the existence of RS she is kind of "moderate". But still an enemy of Bosnia. Well, allowing the RSK/JNA to attack Croatian villages within BiH should have been completely unacceptable. If the war was a liberation war for all of BiH and not just carving out of a Bosniak state then this attack should have provoked a stronger response. I believe it also showed the Cetniks that Izetbegovic was indecisive and it actually encourage there extreme behavior later in other parts of BiH. The cetniks in Belgrade preyed on the weakness of others, this showed his weakness in response to the agression against them. Since the attacks in Zvornik and other Eastern Bosnian towns predated the declaration of War, the Bosnian response to these attacks was much different than the attacks on Bosnian Croat villages in 1991. Izetbegovic's lack of vision and response and his caving to extremists both in Croatia and Serbia caused more death and suffering. I'm not equating the guilt just being honest about the mistakes both intentional and unintentional the caused needless suffering.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 20:31:08 GMT -5
You should cut her some slack, I find her to be quite moderate. You are right, compared to the cetniks here at the forum who defend the existence of RS she is kind of "moderate". But still an enemy of Bosnia. Well I think that is a bit extreme and harsh. Bosniaks need Croatia since it is basically a landlocked state. She doesn't strike me as the Ustasa type, her and MIG are pretty moderate. Bosnians need moderate Croats like Stipe Mesic and others.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 20:34:05 GMT -5
I consider Izetbegovic to me a moral man and quite the leader considering the actions of others during the war.
Too bad the birth of Bosnia had to be born in the blood of its people in such a vicious and unprovoked way.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 20:34:28 GMT -5
Whenever I am in BiH I pay my respects to him at his grave.
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