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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 19, 2008 20:42:54 GMT -5
This guy was secretly a Muslim radical. He wanted to rule a country with the Iron fist of his Islamic orientated party and he was met with opposition. I'm not saying he was the only president stooge in that war but numb skulls like tito will sit here and praise him without error simply because the guy's name was Alija and not Ilija. Tito happened to be born a Bosniak , raised a Bosniak , and identifies with even the muslim extremists of his ilk. Its more about regurgitating what he's heard rather than formulating his own premises.
@blackswans
Why do you feel you have to pay Alija any respect? He's dead and in his life he became little more than a religious fanatic and a power hungry politician who ended up costing the lives of several thousands of people. Such a person isn't worthy of respect in my book.
Alright tito , we're ready for your trained responses to defend Bosniak president Alija Izetbegovic. Just admit your positive opinion of him is based mostly on the fact that he was a Bosniak and not actually the individual himself.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 19, 2008 22:49:46 GMT -5
This guy was secretly a Muslim radical. He wanted to rule a country with the Iron fist of his Islamic orientated party and he was met with opposition. I'm not saying he was the only president stooge in that war but numb skulls like tito will sit here and praise him without error simply because the guy's name was Alija and not Ilija. Tito happened to be born a Bosniak , raised a Bosniak , and identifies with even the muslim extremists of his ilk. Its more about regurgitating what he's heard rather than formulating his own premises. @blackswans Why do you feel you have to pay Alija any respect? He's dead and in his life he became little more than a religious fanatic and a power hungry politician who ended up costing the lives of several thousands of people. Such a person isn't worthy of respect in my book. Alright tito , we're ready for your trained responses to defend Bosniak president Alija Izetbegovic. Just admit your positive opinion of him is based mostly on the fact that he was a Bosniak and not actually the individual himself. I understand what you are saying and I will reserve my opinion on Tito as well... Izetbegovic made many grave mistakes that cost thousands of lives. It would have been easy for him to turn the Bosnian state completely over to those radicals who wanted to respond with an eye for an eye. Also there were attempts to keep Bosnia mutli-ethnic during the war especially at the begining. It would have been easier to give in and allow fear and hatred run wild like what we saw with the cetniks or parts of the HVO in 1993 but he didn't allow it. He as the leader of BiH kept the moral high ground during the war when he and Bosnia was facing extinction. That is no small task and is worthy of my respect.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 20, 2008 0:44:36 GMT -5
All I can say is that some people can't accept the truth, not you black though. So in that they retort by labelling me anti this and that just because I don't agree with their brainwashed views. Alija is quite simply a coward to his own people.I don't know how you can celebrate a man like that.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 4:55:43 GMT -5
Well, allowing the RSK/JNA to attack Croatian villages within BiH should have been completely unacceptable. If the war was a liberation war for all of BiH Hahaha, didn’t I just tell you that BOSNIA was NOT at war in 1991!! Bosnia was not independent in 1991. Bosnia was in no position to tell the JNA what to do before the declaration of independence in 1992. Since the attacks in Zvornik and other Eastern Bosnian towns predated the declaration of War, the Bosnian response to these attacks was much different than the attacks on Bosnian Croat villages in 1991. Zvornik was attacked after the declaration of independence. Izetbegovic's lack of vision and response and his caving to extremists both in Croatia and Serbia caused more death and suffering. BS. I'm not equating the guilt just being honest about the mistakes both intentional and unintentional the caused needless suffering. No you are spreading a "moderate" Ustasa point of view in order to blame the defenders of Bosnia for the Croatian aggression on Bosnia.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 5:02:30 GMT -5
Well I think that is a bit extreme and harsh. Bosniaks need Croatia since it is basically a landlocked state. She doesn't strike me as the Ustasa type, her and MIG are pretty moderate. Bosnians need moderate Croats like Stipe Mesic and others. Please don’t compare the enemies of Bosnia with Stipe Mesic. MiG has openly admitted that he wishes to see Bosnia break up and that makes him an Ustasha in my book. But you are right about Bosniaks and Bosnia needing Croatia as a friendly state, but that does absolutely not mean that we should be friends with the Ustasa enemies of Bosnia.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 5:11:24 GMT -5
Alright tito , we're ready for your trained responses to defend Bosniak president Alija Izetbegovic. Just admit your positive opinion of him is based mostly on the fact that he was a Bosniak and not actually the individual himself. My positive opinion is based mostly on the fact that Alija Izetbegovic created the modern Bosnian state(against all odds), which makes him the second most significant person in Bosnias 1000 year long history, right after Kulin Ban himself.
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Boško Buha
Amicus
Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
Posts: 385
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Post by Boško Buha on Oct 20, 2008 11:11:13 GMT -5
This topic was for bosnians to remember thier first president and yet serbs and croats come and ruin this topic (as in all previous ones) with their baised claims. WE NEED A TRUE BOSNIAN MOD!!!!
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Post by fazlinho on Oct 20, 2008 11:12:10 GMT -5
This topic was for bosnians to remember thier first president and yet serbs and croats come and ruin this topic (as in all previous ones) with their baised claims. WE NEED A TRUE BOSNIAN MOD!!!! FAZLINHO FOR MOD '08
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 17:53:23 GMT -5
Alright tito , we're ready for your trained responses to defend Bosniak president Alija Izetbegovic. Just admit your positive opinion of him is based mostly on the fact that he was a Bosniak and not actually the individual himself. My positive opinion is based mostly on the fact that Alija Izetbegovic created the modern Bosnian state(against all odds), which makes him the second most significant person in Bosnias 1000 year long history, right after Kulin Ban himself. Well this is interesting. The criterea for you is being able to forge a modern state. Well then , Alija to you should be on par with any other president that presided over the international recognition of a state. I suppose you admire Chaim Weizmann just as much as Alija since he was the first president of Israel and pushed for a state against all odds ( especially the fact that a huge segment of the of population of the area - Palestinians- were against it). Or is this valid only for Bosniaks?
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 17:59:56 GMT -5
I suppose you admire Chaim Weizmann just as much as Alija since he was the first president of Israel and pushed for a state against all odds Maybe if I was an Israeli living in the 1950s.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 18:04:16 GMT -5
I suppose you admire Chaim Weizmann just as much as Alija since he was the first president of Israel and pushed for a state against all odds Maybe if I was a Jew living in the late 1950s. Well thats pretty stupid. So you're saying the validity of the claim one being an honorable and heroic person ( such as Alija) is based on opinion and not any kind of objective truth? Great, the 'fact' that Alija was a 'good man' is purely subjective and has little more substance than ' I like ice cream.' It doesn't mean anything really. Its just ranting opinion. Alija is GOOD if you're a Bosniak ( like tito), Alija is BAD if you're a Serb. Well great , that doesn't tell us ANYTHING. And if the criteria IS being able to forge a modern state under tough conditions, then Chaim would be just as heroic in your book as Izetbegovic. But he's not. Just think about it logically, thats all I ask.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 18:07:19 GMT -5
And it goes back to my original point that you don't admire Alija because of his own virtue ( or lack thereof) , but simply because he was a Bosniak leader which wanted a pro-Muslim Bosniak orientated Bosnia.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 18:12:39 GMT -5
And how can anyone take what you say as little more than rant? You can't even establish any kind of objective criteria for what qualifies as 'good' and 'bad.' Since you described 'forging a modern state against all odds' as a criterea for good ( since this was your reason) then Chaim also qualifies. Yet, you cannot look at Chaim this way, let alone maybe Franjo Tudjman, because they are not Bosniaks. Thus , that which qualifies as 'good' for you primarly based on whether its identified as Bosniak. This puts you in a tough spot logically. You have to now define how being Bosniak is an objective criterea for good ( i.e. tell us what reality-based truth that is) and you have to explain how not being Bosniak makes someone bad since that is the consequence of your logic. Otherwise you're not saying anything truth-based about Alija. Have a nice day
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 18:22:06 GMT -5
Well thats pretty stupid. Not at all. So you're saying the validity of the claim one being an honorable and heroic person ( such as Alija) is based on opinion and not any kind of objective truth? Everything I have said about Alija Izetbegovic can be defined an objective truth. Great, the 'fact' that Alija was a 'good man' is purely subjective and has little more substance than ' I like ice cream.' It doesn't mean anything really. Its just ranting opinion. If you read the posts again you will notice that only the enemies of Bosnia have expressed such stupid "arguments". Alija is GOOD if you're a Bosniak ( like tito), Autor: Željko Miliæeviæ 18.10.2008. On je mogao pozvati u vjerski rat. On je mogao pozvati u vjersku i nacionalnu mržnju. On je mogao pozvati u osvetu zbog svojih stradanja. On je mogao pozvati u osvetu protiv Srba, Crnogoraca i Hrvata zbog stradanja Bošnjaka u ovom najzadnjem genocidu. On je prvi Predsjednik Republike Bosne i Hercegovine, i to za vijeke vjekova.Umni voða naroda koji nije smio postojati. Idejno-politièki voða države koja nije smjela postojati. On je vodio Bosnu i Hercegovinu kad je skoro cijeli svijet bio protiv nje. Mislilac, intelektualac, vojskovoða, vjernik, državnik, pisac, komšija, susjed, prijatelj... Rahmetli Alija Izetbegoviæ se nije dao pokoriti nametnutim mu, kao i nama, sistemu. On ga je vidio, spoznao i suprotstavio mu se. On ga je prokazao. Oni, koji su to mogli razumjeti, i koji su mu vjerovali, su ga podržali. On je imao podršku veæine. U njegovom Kabinetu su bili patrioti Bosne i Hercegovine sviju vjera i narodnosti. Njegov poziv na razmišljanje, „Islamska deklaracija“, u svom samom naslovu, u današnjem svijetu i vjersko-etnièko-politièkom podneblju, zvuèi agresivno. Razlog tome je da živimo u vremenima kad se sve greške svih postojeæih sistema upravljanja ljudima nastoje prebaciti na jedan nazivnik kojeg se relativno jednostavno identificira - Islamizam. Ne znam odakle je došla ova kovanica, ali mi je kao kršæanu jasno da je, u najmanju ruku, zloæudna i pakosna i uvredljiva. „Islamska deklaracija“ nije nikakav poziv u vjersku mržnju i rat. Ta izjava je poziv za narodno, vjersko i društveno-politièko osvješæenje jednog naroda kojeg su stoljeæima zatirali u njegovoj vlastitoj postojbini. On se nikad nije prihvatio puške, meðutim je zbog nekih šezdeset stranica filozofskog razmišljanja dobio èetrnaest godina robije. Samo to ukazuje na sumanutost svijeta u kojem živimo. On je sve nas, i Bošnjake i druge, svojim djelom upozoravao na prave, izvorne opasnosti. Zbog toga je bio opasan velikom sistemu. Iste godine kad je Inkvizicija prognala sefardske (španjolske) Židove, srpski hajduci su po prvi put provalili u Srebrenicu. To je bilo 1492., po gregorijanskom kalendaru. Bosna i Bošnjaci su prihvatili i udomili sefardske Židove, a potom ispratili srpske hajduke natrag preko Drine. Židovi su sobom donijeli svoje narodne i vjerske artifakte, meðu kojima je bila i Sveta knjiga „Hagada“, jedan od šest primjeraka koji još uvijek postoji. Vlada Republike Bosne i Hercegovine, kojom je predsjedavao Alija Izetbegoviæ, je èuvala i saèuvala tu Svetu knjigu. Da je to bila ikakva „fundamentalna“, „nacionalistièka“ ili „islamistièka“ vlada, ta Knjiga ne bi danas postojala. Da je on htio napraviti malu muslimansku zajednicu u kršæanskoj Europi on ne bi bio ovlastio mene, rimo-katolika, da organiziram vojno-materijalnu pomoæ. U takozvanim „mirovnim pregovorima“ koji su se vodili u ono doba u Ženevi, svima je postalo jasno da se ne radi o miru nego o uništenju Bosne i Hercegovine. Dobrovoljna organizacija rodoljuba Bosne i Hercegovine je radila u Ottawi izmeðu 1992. i 1995. godine. To je bio „Informativni ured Bosne i Hercegovine“, kroz èiji rad smo organizirali javno-politièke nastupe i slanje medicinske pomoæi. Meðutim, to svakako nije bilo dovoljno i trebalo je pomoæi vojno-oslobodilaèki napor i žrtvovanje naroda koji nije nikad htio rata. Pod-predsjednica demokratski izabranog Upravnog odbora „Informativnog ureda Bosne i Hercegovine“, nakon hitnog zasjedanja, me je poslala u posebnu misiju. Ja sam se toga prihvatio uz uvjet da dobijem ovlaštenje, koje je ovdje priloženo. Na osnovi zaduženja našeg ureda i ovlaštenja Predsjednika, ja sam putovao u tri zemlje. Naravno, UDBA, a potom i britanska MI6, su postali jako zainteresirani i pomno su pratili moj put, pogotovo kad sam se pojavio u Aziji. Kršæanin, koji organizira vojno-materijalnu pomoæ za Bosnu i Hercegovinu, u trenutku kad kršæani ubijaju Muslimane! To je bilo nepojmljivo onda, a i danas je. To nije bilo nepojmljivo Predsjedniku Izetbegoviæu. Ja sam živi dokaz da rahmetli Alija Izetbegoviæ nije radio na stvaranju male muslimanske državice na Balkanu. On je bio branitelj cijele Bosne i Hercegovine i njenih naroda. Neka Ti je rahmet duši, Predsjednièe! Alija is BAD if you're a Serb. No, Alija is bad if you are a Chetnik Well great , that doesn't tell us ANYTHING. Again, complain those who use those kind of argumenst. And if the criteria IS being able to forge a modern state under tough conditions, then Chaim would be just as heroic in your book as Izetbegovic. But he's not. Just think about it logically, thats all I ask. You are the one without logic if you insist on equalizing Izetbegovic with the enemies of Bosnia.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 18:24:26 GMT -5
And it goes back to my original point that you don't admire Alija because of his own virtue ( or lack thereof) , but simply because he was a Bosniak leader which wanted a pro-Muslim Bosniak orientated Bosnia. Don’t be stupid now, I have already explained this to you: My positive opinion is based mostly on the fact that Alija Izetbegovic created the modern Bosnian state(against all odds), which makes him the second most significant person in Bosnias 1000 year long history, right after Kulin Ban himself. And how can anyone take what you say as little more than rant? You can't even establish any kind of objective criteria for what qualifies as 'good' and 'bad.' Again: only the enemies of Bosnia have expressed such opinions as arguments. Thus , that which qualifies as 'good' for you primarly based on whether its identified as Bosniak. Not at all, read again: My positive opinion is based mostly on the fact that Alija Izetbegovic created the modern Bosnian state(against all odds), which makes him the second most significant person in Bosnias 1000 year long history, right after Kulin Ban himself. This puts you in a tough spot logically. You have to now define how being Bosniak is an objective criterea for good ( i.e. tell us what reality-based truth that is) and you have to explain how not being Bosniak makes someone bad since that is the consequence of your logic. Actually you are the only one here mentioning the word Bosniak. I can not possibly agree with your stupid assumption that Izetbegovis ethnicity somehow has relevance the historic achievement for which I admire him.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 18:40:28 GMT -5
You're an idiot. Nationalistic brainwashed force fed nonsense irrational tard. How it it objectively true that Alija was a good guy? Prove this, this requires evidence separated from your personal opinion ( otherwise its subjective and ranting opinion).
You said your criterea is 'forging a state against all odds' in which others fall into this same tito's criterea for 'good.' Such as, Franjo Tudjman, Chaim Weizzman, Vladimir Lenin, Adolf Hitler, etc. Yet you look at none of these other people as good or particularly heroic but Alija IS! Where is the objectivity here?
So you might say its the Bosnian state eh, well then what gives leaders of the Bosnian state the moral status of 'good' when trying to forge their nation state but other leaders the moral lable as 'amoral' or 'bad' when trying to forge their states against all odds? ( Think Croatia , Nazi Germany , Pol Pot , Castro, Saddam, USSR, Israel). Again , you haven't defined anything objectively here.
And you cover yourself up by saying ' only the enemies of Bosnia' expressed such opinions as arguments. My argument isn't opinionated, its logical. I'm just asking for objectivity and you're not providing any which means either you refuse to demonstrate objective principles or you can't think of any and thus it regulates your rant into non-truth.
Repating what you wrote earlier does nothing in the way of knowledge especially if the statement doesn't address the logical issues raised, it just makes you sound even more aloof from reality.
I'm not sure if I'm an 'enemy of Bosnia,' because I don't even know what that means. Does Bosnia exist as some realistic tangible object that is sentient? Or is Bosnia an idea , and if it is , why is it bad to be an 'enemy of it' and what does that mean? Is it merely being opposed to the opinion of Bosnian nationalists? I have no idea , you haven't objectively defined anything.
Time for some critical thinking tito, I understand if you want to run away.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 18:45:47 GMT -5
And don't give me that crap that 'it has nothing to do with his 'ethnicity' when it has everything to do with it . Its that and/or being tied to the Bosnian state somehow ( i.e. loyal to politicians who promote a certain nationalistic agenda). I doubt you can tell me any significant difference between Chaim Wiezzman and Alija Izetbegovic other than Bosniak and Jew. Especially if your criterea is 'forging a state against all odds.' Yet you say IF you were a JEW , you might admire Chaim. Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds. You're saying moral and even aesthetic judgements are based on ethnicity. For crying out loud , read your own damn words.
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Post by kapetan on Oct 20, 2008 18:53:21 GMT -5
He wasn't perfect, sometimes too soft on the enemy, but he was the best and only leader we had at the time and still accomplished alot. People who glorfy him too much don't know shit just like the people who hate him. You gotta get educated deeper.
RIP
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 19:00:32 GMT -5
No you are the idiot for even attempting to use cetnik arguments against Izetbegovics. Nationalistic brainwashed force fed nonsense irrational tard. That is what you are, yes. How it it objectively true that Alija was a good guy? For the 4th time now: only the enemies of Bosnia have used opinions as arguments. I have strictly used objectively truths. You said you're criterea is 'forging a state against all odds' in which others fall into this same tito's criterea for 'good.' Such as, Franjo Tudjman, Chaim Weizzman, Vladimir Lenin, Adolf Hitler, etc. Yet you look at none of these other people as good or particularly heroic but Alija IS! Where is the objectivity here? In the fact that Alija Izetbegovic managed to create the modern Bosnian state against all odds. And you cover yourself up by saying ' only the enemies of Bosnia' expressed such opinions as arguments. My argument isn't opinionated, its logical. Ali u kurcu. You base your arguments on things I never said, on things that the anti-Bosnian elements here have done such as expressing opinions as arguments. You cant face the truth so you start making up stuff like how Izetbegovics ethnicity is somehow relevant to my opinion about him. I'm just asking for objectivity And I have only presented objectivity, you on the other hand are unable to do that, that is why you are forced to express your cetnik opinions about Izetbegovic and then claim that you are somehow using objective arguments. tito, I understand if you want to run away. LOL, dont worry about it, Tito is not going anywhere.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 19:05:03 GMT -5
And don't give me that crap that 'it has nothing to do with his 'ethnicity' when it has everything to do with it . Not at all, Alija is the father of the modern Bosnian state and not some ethnic state, like the enemies of Bosnia wanted him to be. You're saying moral and even aesthetic judgements are based on ethnicity. For crying out loud , read your own damn words. You are stupid, I have never mentioned ethnicity as a relevant factor, in fact I have pointed out the opposite. But you refuse to accept that and that is obviously your mental problem. Zivljela Bosna prkosna od sna!
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