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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 20, 2008 19:21:37 GMT -5
tito you haven't yet defined a single thing objectively.
(No you are the idiot for even attempting to use cetnik arguments against Izetbegovics. )
Can you define what this means? For example , what would qualify as a 'non-chetnik' argument againt Izetbegovic? What is the difference between a cetnik and non cetnik argument?
(For the 4th time now: only the enemies of Bosnia have used opinions as arguments. I have strictly used objectively truths.)
Where? You said he 'forged the state against all odds,' and I asked what makes him honorable and good for doing that? I used your same criterea ( forging a state against all odds) with other individuals and you don't give them the same admiration. Thus , through your own admission , your admiration of him is based on ethnicity or else Alija would be on par with other political leaders under the same circumstances to you.
Also , you have yet to define what it means to be an 'enemy to Bosnia.'
( Ali u kurcu. You base your arguments on things I never said, on things that the anti-Bosnian elements here have done such as expressing opinions as arguments. You cant face the truth so you start making up stuff like how Izetbegovics ethnicity is somehow relevant to my opinion about him.)
You haven't defined what any of this stuff means.
(And I have only presented objectivity, you on the other hand are unable to do that, that is why you are forced to express your cetnik opinions about Izetbegovic and then claim that you are somehow using objective arguments.)
Again , what is the difference between a 'cetnik' opinion and another kind of opinion? You're throwing all these words out there and not supplying any kind of meaning to them. How could one interpret what your writing other than babble?
(You are stupid, I have never mentioned ethnicity as a relevant factor, in fact I have pointed out the opposite. But you refuse to accept that and that is obviously your mental problem.)
Yes you did because you said you would maybe look at Chaim as a hero if you were a Jew in the 1950s? Why can't you see him as a hero as Bosniak in the 2000s but only as a Jew in the 1950s? Is the morality of an individual's actions based on ethnicity and time? How is that objective?
Answer my questions or simply admit you're ranting nonsense.
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Post by tito on Oct 20, 2008 19:43:52 GMT -5
tito you haven't yet defined a single thing objectively. Totally wrong, everything I have said about Izetbegovic is objective. You on the other hand have expressed opinions about Izetbegovic which are everything else then objective. your admiration of him is based on ethnicity Not at all, it based on the fact that he created the modern Bosnian state against all odds. Yes you did because you said you would maybe look at Chaim as a hero if you were a Jew in the 1950s? I guess it’s your cetnik mental illness that forces you misquote me all the time. I clearly said Israeli, don’t know why you changed it into Jew, I guess you did it because you are a cetnik that cant stand the fact that I don’t base my opinions about Izetbegovic on ethnicity.
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 20, 2008 23:51:16 GMT -5
He wasn't perfect, sometimes too soft on the enemy, but he was the best and only leader we had at the time and still accomplished alot. People who glorfy him too much don't know s**t just like the people who hate him. You gotta get educated deeper. RIP Agreed, I hate to see people argue over this especially those who are pro-Bosnia... Alija Izetbegovic was a flawed leader but he wasn't criminal in how he fought for Bosnia at it's modern birth. The same cannot be said of his enemies who either ended up in the hague (milosevic & karadzic) or should have (tudjman). He fought to keep the moral high ground in an immoral war and suceeded to a great degree. Even when in order to get weapons and support from the middle east he also had to accept the influence of the mujadeens. He kept this to a minimum despite the challenges associated with this situation as well.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 21, 2008 6:23:17 GMT -5
He ascribed to the initiation of violence. No hero in my book. What 'moral high ground' is there in war? Does such a thing even exist? How come politicians command people to be used as cannon fodder when they themselves will not go and fight? In fact, relative to suffering citizens, they do quite well. Alija evacuated his family, he was fed through the money taken from people by force. In this respect he's no different than any other politician solidifying their power through war.
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Post by tito on Oct 21, 2008 8:24:02 GMT -5
He ascribed to the initiation of violence. No that was the Karadizc-serbs.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 21, 2008 12:10:41 GMT -5
Kane you put my point across totally!
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Post by SKORIC on Oct 21, 2008 12:13:55 GMT -5
There were no real heroes in the Bosnian war.
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Post by tito on Oct 21, 2008 12:15:35 GMT -5
There were no real heroes in the Bosnian war. Except for the defenders of Bosnia(which includes Alija Izetbegovic).
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 21, 2008 12:17:10 GMT -5
That's right the poor bastards out there on the battlefied with nothing but a gun and their shoes, while these leaders played out the plot.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 21, 2008 17:44:50 GMT -5
Stooges like tito think with raw emotion and rarely any reason. He puts his own whim-based national identity before anything objective. This much is demonstrated on the thread as he accuses virtually any criticism of his views to be inherently 'anti-Bosnian.' Of course he hasn't even told us what he means by this.
Of course lets not really waste our time. How many people can you reason with that think on these terms? Not very many.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 21, 2008 17:52:36 GMT -5
The same criteria he says qualifies someone as a 'hero' in his book cannot be applied to non-Bosniaks. Thus, only Bosniaks or people with a pro-Bosnian agenda can be 'heroic' which means its impossible for others to be heroic by tito's standards. Of course , none of this has any basis in reality.
If the criteria for a man being a hero is : become a political leader and be pro-independence for your country, even if you're willing to order the murder of others , all these under tough conditions , then many other individuals would fall into this fold. Lets look at some of them.
Adolf Hitler Franjo Tudjman The American Founding Fathers Vladimir Lenin Chaim Weizzman and the list goes on......
But then tito says he would praise Chaim IF he was an Israeli AND it was in the 1950s. Thus, logically , virtue worthy of admiration , according to tito , depends on two primary factors : Time period and ethnicity ( within this can be nationality and political orientation). Thats all I was saying in the beginning. tito's praise of Alija isn't based on any objective factors ( or else they would apply to other individuals that behaved similarly to Alija but were not Bosniak) but rather whim-based soley on ethnic affiliation , time , and/or political orientation/nationality.
He has given us nothing else.
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 21, 2008 17:54:55 GMT -5
That's right the poor bastards out there on the battlefied with nothing but a gun and their shoes, while these leaders played out the plot. thats 100% correct, meaningless war, where the leaders talked to each other and sat at the same table lik every 6 months, and, for some reason, did not try to kill each other, as would be normal in a war... Seriously, I will respect any leader, no matter how fukked up, that fought and suffered and starved, with his own men, and his own people... Alija did not do this, and neither was he a good leader, seen as we did not win, but lost ground....
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Post by tito on Oct 21, 2008 18:22:45 GMT -5
Jebem ja vama mater svima ;D, Aljo je stvorio Bosnu nezavisnu od Beograda i vi meni nesta ko mudrujete protiv naj veceg sina Bosne od Kulina Bana! Ubij te se odmah misevi mali, lakse ce vam biti nego da gledate kako Alijina Bosna nezavisna od Beograda svaki dan postaje sve vece, jaca i vise prkosna !
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Post by Arthur Kane on Oct 21, 2008 19:34:49 GMT -5
^^^ Babble
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 21, 2008 19:51:26 GMT -5
He ascribed to the initiation of violence. No hero in my book. What 'moral high ground' is there in war? Does such a thing even exist? How come politicians command people to be used as cannon fodder when they themselves will not go and fight? In fact, relative to suffering citizens, they do quite well. Alija evacuated his family, he was fed through the money taken from people by force. In this respect he's no different than any other politician solidifying their power through war. He didn't debase Serbs and Croats calling them genitcally inferior or that they might dissapear... Izetbegovic stayed in Sarajevo with his daughter, his son did fund raising and organizing in Zagreb. He did everything he could to avoid a war with the Serbs even allowing them to disarm the TO's which cost thousands of lives... You can't have it both ways he didn't initiate the violence while at the same time made Bosniaks cannon fodder by trying to resolve the crisis through peaceful means...
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 21, 2008 19:56:02 GMT -5
That's right the poor bastards out there on the battlefied with nothing but a gun and their shoes, while these leaders played out the plot. thats 100% correct, meaningless war, where the leaders talked to each other and sat at the same table lik every 6 months, and, for some reason, did not try to kill each other, as would be normal in a war... Seriously, I will respect any leader, no matter how fukked up, that fought and suffered and starved, with his own men, and his own people... Alija did not do this, and neither was he a good leader, seen as we did not win, but lost ground.... He was fat when the war started and was skinny when it ended. The only Bosniak to get fatter during the war was Rasim Delic. While the cetniks got fat on the blood of innocent civillians.. the truth of Izetbegovic lies somewere between the argument between Kan(y)e West and Josip Broz... Winner? We divide it 51-49% and never to be resolved but always argued over!
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 21, 2008 19:57:10 GMT -5
With Brcko going to Emir Kusturica if he is willing to move back to Bosnia and renounce his wannabe Serbian ways!
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Post by tito on Oct 21, 2008 19:59:28 GMT -5
The only Bosniak to get fatter during the war was Rasim Delic. ;D
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Post by theblackswans on Oct 21, 2008 20:20:56 GMT -5
The only Bosniak to get fatter during the war was Rasim Delic. ;D That foto of him getting fatter during the war makes me so mad I want to punch babies!
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Post by tito on Oct 21, 2008 21:00:24 GMT -5
;D That foto of him getting fatter during the war makes me so mad I want to punch babies! Actually I think it was taken in 1997:
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