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Post by tito on Oct 3, 2008 7:27:05 GMT -5
I know they where around 12% of the population in 1991, but where they a “constitutional people” before Tudjman became president? And if so, what exactly was the reason for changing this status?
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Oct 3, 2008 7:51:46 GMT -5
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Post by tito on Oct 3, 2008 8:27:21 GMT -5
Does that mean that serbs did Not have the status of a “constitutional people” before Tudjman? Did they have any “special status” before Tudjman??
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Oct 3, 2008 9:01:35 GMT -5
MYTH:"SERBS HAVE NO RIGHTS IN CROATIA" Myth: The government of the Republic of Croatia denied basic civil, cultural and linguistic rights to the Serbian minority in Croatia.
Reality: On the very day it declared independence Croatia granted extraordinary rights and privileges to Serbs and other minorities in Croatia.
It became apparent throughout the world that Serbia was the aggressor in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina during the break-up of Yugoslavia. Its clear aim was the preservation of a Greater Serbian state while retaining the name Yugoslavia against the expressed will of the majority of the people. However, Serbia's aims were not so clear to many in the West during the terrible days of aggression in the Fall of 1991 and Spring of 1992. A full-scale Serbian propaganda campaign repeated time and time again that the War was to "protect the Serbian minority in Croatia" despite the fact that the Serbs had lived peacefully with the Croatians for nearly a half-century. To reinforce their case, Serbia let it be known to the world that the new Croatian government had made no provision for the rights of Serbs in Croatia. The Western media, unable or unwilling to read the documents provided to them by the Croatian government in English, accepted mythology as fact and in many cases continued to repeat it well into 1992. "The Croatians wrote a new constitution, giving no special rights to Croatia's Serbs..." wrote the Christian Science Monitor on September 19, 1991.
Croatian Declaration of Independence, June 25, 1991
In reality, with the very first document to emerge from the new Croatian Republic, its Declaration of Independence on June 25, 1991, the Croatian government guaranteed not only civil rights, but unique rights to the Serbian minority. The first two articles of the Declaration established the rights of Croatia to declare independence and to defend its territorial integrity. Article III of the Declaration stated:
The Republic of Croatia is a democratic, legal and social state in which prevails the supreme values of constitutional order: freedom, equality, ethnic equality, peace, social justice, respect for human rights, pluralism and the inviolability of personal property, environmental protection, the rule of law, and a multi-party system. The Republic of Croatia guarantees Serbs in Croatia and all national minorities who live in this territory the respect of all human and civil rights, especially the freedom to nurture their national language and culture as well as political organizations.
The Republic of Croatia protects the rights and interests of its citizens without regard to their religious, ethnic or racial belonging. In accordance with customary and positive international law, the Republic of Croatia guarantees other states and international bodies that it will completely and consciously uphold all its rights and duties as a legal successor to the previous Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the extent that they relate to the Republic of Croatia.
In order to avoid bloodshed and insure a peaceful transition, the Croatian Declaration concluded: The Republic of Croatia calls upon the other republics of the former SFRY to create an alliance of sovereign states on the presumptions of mutual recognition of state sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual respect, recognition of political pluralism and democracy, pluralism of ownership and market economy, and the actual respect of human rights, rights for ethnic minorities and other civilized values of the free world. Serbia met this call for peaceful dialogue with the bloodiest warfare Europe had seen since World War II, slaughtering over ten thousand people, exiling hundreds of thousands and crushing the human rights of non-Serbs in every corner of former Yugoslavia.
Charter Relating to the Rights of Serbs and Others
In order to dispel any doubts about the Croatian government's commitment to human rights and exceptional rights for the Serbian minority, the Croatian Parliament in its first session as an independent state, adopted The Charter Relating to the Rights of Serbs and Other Nationalities in the Republic of Croatia on June 25, 1991:
A just solution relating to the issue of Serbs and other nationalities in the Republic of Croatia is one of the important factors to democracy, stability, peace and economic advancement, and to cooperation with other countries.
The protection and full realization of rights for all nationalities in the Republic of Croatia, as well as the protection of individual rights is a composite part of international protection of human and civil rights and the protection of nationalities and as such they belong to the area of international cooperation.
The rights of nationalities and international cooperation will not allow any activity which is opposed to the regulations of international law, especially sovereignty, territorial integrity and the political independence of the Republic of Croatia as a united and indivisible democratic and social state.
All nationalities in Croatia are legally protected from such activities that would threaten their existence. They have the right to respect and to self preservation of their cultural autonomy.
Serbs in Croatia and all nationalities have the right to proportionally engage in bodies of local self-government and appropriate government bodies, as well as security for economic and social development for the purpose of preserving their identity and for the protection of any attempts of assimilation, which will be regulated by law, territorial organization, local self-government as well as institutionalizing parliamentary bodies which will be responsible for relations between nationalities.
Organizations which will adhere to the aims of its constitution and which are involved in protecting and developing individual nationalities, and as such are representative of the said nationality, have the right to represent the nationality as a whole and each individual belonging to that nationality, within the Republic as well as on an international level. Individual nationalities and members have the right, in order to protect their rights, to tum to international institutions which are involved in the protection of human and national rights.
The commitments of the Croatian government to human rights surpassed those of the United States Declaration of Independence which referred to native Americans as "merciless Indian savages," or the U.S. Constitution which specifically defined an African-American as three-fifths of a person. The Croatian Parliament further strengthened the law on December 4, 1991 by specifically granting local police, courts and governments to Serbs in those areas in which they were a majority. These documents grant Serbs and other national minorities full protection of human rights, guaranteed proportional representation in government, the right to self-government, and protection from any attempts of forced assimilation. It further encouraged individuals and organizations to appeal to international bodies to secure these protections. Ironically, Serbs in Croatia have never needed these provisions. It was the Croatians, Bosnians and Kosova' s Albanian majority who would appeal to the European Community, the United Nations, the International League for Human Rights, Helsinki Watch, Amnesty International and other international bodies for protection from the Serbian minority and the Serbian controlled Army.
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Post by ccccnjegoscccc on Oct 3, 2008 9:20:58 GMT -5
^^ The priviliages they speak off are loss of employment, racism, harrasment, murder etc etc.
Sort of like the rights established in by Mugabe in Zimbabwe for the whites.
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Post by tito on Oct 3, 2008 10:14:13 GMT -5
Jebem vas corave! Did they or did they not have a special status before Tudjman?? !
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Oct 3, 2008 10:18:11 GMT -5
There was discrimination on all sides but that is a little exaggerated. A dozen members of the Croatian Parliament were Serbs, one-quarter of the supreme court justices were Serbs. The University of Zagreb, the news media and especially the Foreign Ministry all had high-ranking Serbs.
When Croatia was attacked, many fled not to Belgrade but to the Croatian capital of Zagreb and to other nonoccupied areas. More Serbs chose to live at peace in free Croatia than under Serbian occupation.
The people that did flee were usually peasants who were uneducated to begin with.
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Post by zgembo on Oct 3, 2008 14:20:06 GMT -5
Yes, Serbs did have "special status", if you can call it that, before Tudjman. They were a constitutive nation in Croatia, just as the Croats, meaning they were equal to them constitutionally and as such would've been entitled to self-determination. Tudjman changed the Croatian Constitution in 1990 to make Croatia a nation state of the Croats with Serbs and others declared as minorities. The rights given to minorities may sound very liberal, but so did the autonomy Slobo gave to Kosovo in 1989. Serbs responded to the Constitutional downgrade with the Balvan revolucija ("log" revolution).
The myth article completely ignores the status of Serbs pre-1990 in Croatia. Zvone's argument about employment inequality completely ignores the fact Serbs were, on a much higher level, members of the communist party. Positions were given according to membership in the party, not according to some ethnic bias towards Serbs.
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Post by tito on Oct 3, 2008 15:00:34 GMT -5
Yes, Serbs did have "special status", if you can call it that, before Tudjman. They were a constitutive nation in Croatia, just as the Croats, meaning they were equal to them constitutionally and as such would've been entitled to self-determination. Tudjman changed the Croatian Constitution in 1990 to make Croatia a nation state of the Croats with Serbs and others declared as minorities. Thank you for answering my question. Do you know how this change was motivated?
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Post by zgembo on Oct 3, 2008 19:39:25 GMT -5
Take a wild guess, genius.
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Post by tito on Oct 3, 2008 21:28:34 GMT -5
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 3, 2008 22:51:24 GMT -5
^^^There's no conenction lol....
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Post by SKORIC on Oct 4, 2008 0:00:26 GMT -5
lol at avoiding titos question at the begining and lol at Macedonia.org. Yes, Serbs did have "special status", if you can call it that, before Tudjman. They were a constitutive nation in Croatia, just as the Croats, meaning they were equal to them constitutionally and as such would've been entitled to self-determination. Tudjman changed the Croatian Constitution in 1990 to make Croatia a nation state of the Croats with Serbs and others declared as minorities. The rights given to minorities may sound very liberal, but so did the autonomy Slobo gave to Kosovo in 1989. Serbs responded to the Constitutional downgrade with the Balvan revolucija ("log" revolution). The myth article completely ignores the status of Serbs pre-1990 in Croatia. Zvone's argument about employment inequality completely ignores the fact Serbs were, on a much higher level, members of the communist party. Positions were given according to membership in the party, not according to some ethnic bias towards Serbs. Yes indeedy Because Sranjo Tudjman was no better the Milosevic. Ill even quote from bbc since you guys might get suspicious of some pro-Serb writers, The world opinion on Tudjman was far from good when he passed away. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/294990.stm
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Oct 4, 2008 0:59:35 GMT -5
^^ They got what they deserved
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Post by tito on Oct 4, 2008 1:58:27 GMT -5
Because Sranjo Tudjman was no better the Milosevic. I understand that but I was hoping that there was some motive related to the 12% which would explain why the author of the article makes a connection between the changed status of serbs in croatia 1991 and now the 12% croats in BiH.. Maybe he is just paranoid and believes that serbs in BiH will somehow talk Bosniaks into “taking revenge” on the Croats by doing the same thing as Tudjman.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 4, 2008 4:42:43 GMT -5
^^^Interesting point, but the lack of Croats in Bih, has been long coming. They either left because they were kicked out, or they wanted a better life elsewhere. Simple.
I kinda agree with the talking the Bosniaks into taking revenge, only they would be stupid to side with them after what happened last time, but it wouldn't suprise me one bit.
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Post by tito on Oct 4, 2008 5:08:40 GMT -5
^^^Interesting point, but the lack of Croats in Bih, has been long coming. They either left because they were kicked out, or they wanted a better life elsewhere. Simple. I kinda agree with the talking the Bosniaks into taking revenge, only they would be stupid to side with them after what happened last time, but it wouldn't suprise me one bit. I very much doubt that Bosniaks would do that, lets not forget that almost 40% of the Croats in the BiH parliament are very much loyal to BiH and therefore natural allies to the Bosniak people. A more likely scenario in my opinion is that the roll of "constitutional people"(at least on state level) will become less important then it is today.
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Post by SKORIC on Oct 4, 2008 5:21:32 GMT -5
Yeh the guy is just paranoid, I doubt the Bosnian Muslims are in with the Serbs on some revenge against the Croats lol..
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Post by tito on Oct 4, 2008 5:46:58 GMT -5
Yeh the guy is just paranoid, I doubt the Bosniaks are in with the Bosnian Orthodox’s-christians on some revenge against the Croats lol.. But would it surprise you if the Serbs in BiH demanded that the Croat 12% should "enjoy" the same status as the Serbian 12% in Croatia 1991? A scenario where the Croats loose their status as constitutional people in all of BiH would polarize the situation even more and make BiH kind of like Belgium. Which is a bad thing from a pro-Bosnian point of view.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 4, 2008 5:49:42 GMT -5
It won't happen tito. And oh yes even one Muslim said to me once..who knows they may side with the Serbs next time lol...they are stuck in a rock and a hard place...
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