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Post by engers on Sept 2, 2008 10:11:10 GMT -5
"U Kninu je stradalo manje civila nego što se procjenjivalo" NA SUÐENJU hrvatskim generalima Gotovini, Èermaku i Markaèu danas je, drugi dan za redom, svjedoèio kanadski obavještajni èasnik Phil Berikoff koji je juèer kazao kako granatiranje Knina nije bilo neselektivno, a danas je priznao i da se pretjerivalo u procjenama o broju mrtvih civila u Kninu. Berikoff je u svom dnevniku koji je vodio za vrijeme Oluje zapisao kako je u Kninu vidio izmeðu 300 i 400 mrtvih civila, ali kasnije je uklonio taj podatak. "Nisam osobno vidio te mrtve", priznao je Berikoff dok ga je ispitivao Gotovinin branitelj Greg Kehoe. Taj podatak je Berikoff dobio od svog nadreðenog, pukovnika Andrewa Leslieja. Berikoff je za vrijeme Oluje nekoliko puta obišao Knin i vidio izmeðu 15 i 20 ranjenika unutar bolnice i oko nje. Nije mogao potvrditi da je bilo rijeè o civilima s obzirom su da oni koji nisu bili u uniformi nosili samo dijelove maskirne uniforme. Berikoff je za vrijeme svojih posjeta snimao ošteæenja na zgradama, ali, kako je Gotovinin branitelj ukazao, nije mogao utvrditi je li rijeè o civilnim ili vojnim objektima s obzirom da je ubrzo nakon Oluje premješten u Sarajevo. "Nije me zanimalo i nije bio moj zadatak utvrditi za što su se koristili pojedini objekti", kazao je Berikoff, nakon što mu je Kehoe predoèio izjavu drugog dužnosnika meðunarodne zajednice koji je kazao da je u školi bilo smješteno oko 500 vojnika takozvane Republike Srpske Krajine. Berikoff æe svjedoèenje nastaviti i sutra kad æe ga ispitivati braniteljica generala Markaèa Gilian Higgins. www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/u-kninu-je-stradalo-manje-civila-nego-sto-se-procjenjivalo/400627.aspx
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 3, 2008 23:15:27 GMT -5
^^ his not the only one to over exaggerate victims numbers ... a classic example is General Leslie who stated in a report given to the media that 25,000 - 30,000 serbs had perished in Knin which is a grouse over exaggeration.
Whats interesting is this witness before he even begun his testimony retracted his earlier report that the Knin hospital had been targeted intentionally. He no longer supported that view and withdrew it completely.
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Post by radovic on Sept 7, 2008 13:46:22 GMT -5
^ Given that Knin never even had 25,000 citizens during the RSK period your claim is a lie.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 7, 2008 20:54:43 GMT -5
^^ You obviously dont understand english. And yes i agree with you that it was a lie.! Not my lie, but General Leslie's ... who stated that 25, 000 serbs perished in Knin in an interview provided to a Canadian news service which was then relayed to the world. I listened to the audio provided to the court myself ... My point being that many over-exaggerated the victim numbers which ultimately led to the false indictment against Gotovina.
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Post by radovic on Sept 8, 2008 11:53:49 GMT -5
^^ You obviously dont understand english. And yes i agree with you that it was a lie.! Not my lie, but General Leslie's ... who stated that 25, 000 serbs perished in Knin in an interview provided to a Canadian news service which was then relayed to the world. I listened to the audio provided to the court myself ... My point being that many over-exaggerated the victim numbers which ultimately led to the false indictment against Gotovina. Then provide this audio then? Because the Canadian general's quote as such appears only on wikipedia. The ICTY transcript, www.un.org/icty/transe90/080422IT.htm, he said: 6When I first arrived in Knin in March, and these are only 7 estimates and not meant to sound as if they're definitive numbers, but 8 the population of Knin was probably somewhere in the order of 20.000 to 9 25.000. As tensions mounted, and it became fairly obvious that imminent 10 hostilities were looming, the population of Knin had swollen to somewhere 11 around 35.000 in the days immediately preceding the events of the 4th and 12 5th of August. That is the only time such high numbers are mentioned in his trial. So Pickola, you were saying? Aside from wikipedia, only Jutarnji List makes such a claim. But, I hope you know that Jutarnji List is not credible especially since they tried to pass a non-existant interview with the Croatian prime minister as having actually happenned (http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUKL129396720080212).
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 8, 2008 13:24:57 GMT -5
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 8, 2008 20:03:34 GMT -5
Radovic ... don't call my bluff ... because i guarantee you... you will lose.
First can i ask you a question? Have u been following the trial live, like i have been doing? I assume the answer is NO. Well then dont comment on things you obviously arnt privy to.
Anyone and every one who has been following the Gotovina trial has had the opportunity to hear the audio material presented by the defense in reference to General Leslie's false claims. The evidence was provided during the testimony of Alein Forrand. A small clip was provided to the court of General Leslie stating in an interview to a Canadian news source that 25 000 serbs perished in 1995. I believe the interview was given in 2003.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 8, 2008 20:03:58 GMT -5
Novosti - Jutarnji list 6.6.2008
Leslie: ‘U Oluji ubijeno 25.000 civila’
DEN HAAG - Samo granatiranjem u Oluji ubijeno je 10 do 25 tisuća civila, a točan broj nikada nećemo saznati. Vidio sam hrvatske policajce koji su išli od kuće do kuće ubijajući svakoga na koga naiđu - rekao je kanadski general Andrew Leslie u emisiji kanadskog radije u srpnju 2003. godine. Zajedno s njim u emisiji je gostovao Alain Forand, tadašnji Leslijev zapovjednik u snagama UN-a u Kninu.
Leslie je već svjedočio u Haagu no obrana je tek sad pronašla snimku te emisije i pustila je u sudnici posljednjeg dana svjedočenja Foranda. Forand, Leslie i tadašnji glasnogovornik Alun Roberts već prvog dana Oluje lansirali su u svijet tvrdnje da je Knin prekomjerno granatiran. Leslie je osam godina kasnije tvrdio da je u samom granatiranju poginulo 25.000 ljudi.
"Da je Milan Martić to rekao, onda biste ga smatrali lažljivcem, zar ne?", upitao ga je odvjetnik no suci su zabranili takvo pitanje. Forand i Leslie su već samo granatiranje smatrali zločinom, a na pitanje tko su onda odgovorni zločinci, odgovorili su - Tuđman, Šušak i Gotovina. Na sličan način je i prvotna UN-ova procjena od 32-40.000 Srba u Sektoru Jug porasla na 80.000.
Obrana generala Gotovine danas je u unakrsnom ispitivanju dokazivala kako su iz stožera UN-a u Kninu od prvog dana namjerno preuveličavali zločine kako bi se Oluja zaustavila i nastavili mirovni pregovori s krajinskim vodstvom.
Sam general Forand je u svojoj analizi operacije Oluja naveo kako je vjerovao da bi se UN ponovo angažirao između zaraćenih strana da je srpska vojska uspjela dobiti na vremenu. No ostao je zaprepašten time da se gotovo nisu uopće branili, nije bilo druge ili treće linije obrane, a Mile Mrkšić, koji im je uoči Oluje poslan iz Beograda, najjače jedinice je poslao na ratište u Bihać.
Bivši zapovjednik UN-a u Kninu nije znao da je Bihać bila jedna od četiri zaštićene zone UN-a u BiH.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 8, 2008 20:09:14 GMT -5
^^ if you dig up the transcript of General Alen Forand ... everything written in this above article will be confirmed.
My point being ... that General Leslie over inflated the victims numbers which ultimately led to this false indictment.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 8, 2008 20:15:57 GMT -5
Seems to me that some people just arnt interested in the truth.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 9, 2008 4:36:16 GMT -5
Truth to radovic is only what he wishes to believe
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Post by radovic on Sept 9, 2008 11:23:25 GMT -5
Seems to me that some people just arnt interested in the truth. I found the trasncript you were talking about. This time you were telling the truth, I'll admit that. But you were worng when saying the geneals claims of 25,000 were the reason for the indictment. Carla del Ponte looked at the two claims made: 700 soldiers and 677 civilians killed, 5,000 POW, 90,000 refugees (Croatian sources) (2) 742 soldiers killed, at least 1,196 civilians killed, 250,000 refugees (Serbian sources) The only claim the UN made are that there were: 200,000 refugees
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Sept 9, 2008 20:23:31 GMT -5
This time you were telling the truth, I'll admit that.
;D
But you were worng when saying the geneals claims of 25,000 were the reason for the indictment
Obviously i didn't mean that it was the only reason. What i was trying to get at was many over - exaggerated victim numbers, UN staff were given wrong information in many instances and relayed this info to the world which has been proven in court, people in high places manipulated what they heard and presented this as fact. All this combined lead to Gotovina's false indictment.
Carla del ponte charged Gotovina with certain crimes without any proof or evidence .. then went out to try to hunt down this evidence. The over shelling of Knin is a classic example. There is absolutely no concrete evidence of such a thing occurring ... the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of the defense that its not funny. My point again ... misinformation, lack of evidence, over inflated victim numbers, all lead to his indictment.
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Post by radovic on Sept 10, 2008 10:02:36 GMT -5
^ The claim of UN receiving over exaggerated data is true, it's been apparent in cases involving some Serbs that were put on trial.
But the simple fact is the two most reliable figures are: 700 soldiers and 677 civilians killed, 5,000 POW, 90,000 refugees (Croatian sources) (2) 742 soldiers killed, at least 1,196 civilians killed, 250,000 refugees (Serbian sources) The only claim the UN made are that there were: 200,000 refugees
^ Del Ponte mentions that she only used these figures.
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Post by engers on Sept 10, 2008 10:09:16 GMT -5
Truth to radovic is only what he wishes to believe ;D
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Post by karabin on Sept 11, 2008 9:10:25 GMT -5
I hope that criminal Gotovoina gets what he deserves.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 11, 2008 13:31:10 GMT -5
I hope Gotovina comes back soon to Mother Hrvatska and gets a medal.
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Post by radovic on Sept 11, 2008 14:14:09 GMT -5
^ Terrobitch can't keep his story straight. First Montenegrins are the oldest tribe in Europe, then they are their own nation, then they are Albanians, then they are Illyrians and now he claims they are Croats.
Well. I guess he can't keep his story straight. He's said his family lives in Pristina, then he said K. Mitrovica. He speaks Albanian and FYROMian better then "Montenegrin."
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Sept 11, 2008 14:59:25 GMT -5
Can't you see that he's only trying to lay claims on everything. That way, he can unite the people of the Balkans under the Montenegrin name, and yet be a part of everyone, and have a little big of everything in him.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 11, 2008 15:50:05 GMT -5
^ Terrob***h can't keep his story straight. First Montenegrins are the oldest tribe in Europe, then they are their own nation, then they are Albanians, then they are Illyrians and now he claims they are Croats. Well. I guess he can't keep his story straight. He's said his family lives in Pristina, then he said K. Mitrovica. He speaks Albanian and FYROMian better then "Montenegrin." Lmao, where in that sentence did I say Montenegrins are Croats, you blabbering idiot?? Cmon Mig, do you see this man?
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