Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
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Post by Anthologic on Apr 22, 2009 16:31:16 GMT -5
Mig is trying to be the rational voice in an irrational discussion.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 16:33:43 GMT -5
for radovic, I still never quote him or anyone else. My response was to other's asking about what I think about that and yes it was his response to his feelings in what he felt was an impending invasion. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't need anything else to support my views, because believe you me there are lots I could add here from all sides. As I said before the proof is in the pudding, the whole 5 years of blood on ALL sides.
You mention Starcevic above, in which section of his constitution is there a hatred toward any ethnicity, race or religion? Everyone is represented there equally. Oh my there isn't is there?
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 16:35:22 GMT -5
Mig is trying to be the rational voice in an irrational discussion. No one is saying he isnt.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 16:36:57 GMT -5
One man. His view was not popular whatsoever. Starcevic was a lunatic, and the only ones that thought like him were some of the Ustase, and even some of them found him to be too extreme. This is a separate incident from the Radic assassination. I still don't understand why in God's name they killed him, when he did nothing but look out for the good of Croats without harming anyone else in Kr. Yugoslavia.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 16:39:53 GMT -5
I'm not asking if he was popular or crazy, I don't agree with everything he was about either. I was saying where does it say in 1863 anything nasty toward anyone under his idea of a Croatian state? It doesn't.
You don't know why Radic was murdered? Oh my someone hasn't read his history books.
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 16:42:42 GMT -5
One man. His view was not popular whatsoever. Starcevic was a lunatic, and the only ones that thought like him were some of the Ustase, and even some of them found him to be too extreme. This is a separate incident from the Radic assassination. I still don't understand why in God's name they killed him, when he did nothing but look out for the good of Croats without harming anyone else in Kr. Yugoslavia. You said thats the only name you could think of so i thought you were looking for another name (before Racic) that has something to do with fear/hatred between Serbs/Croats In all honesty (And my one belief), the only thing I can trace back the fear/hatred Croats/Serbs have towards eachother is on the name Punisa Racic. Anyways dont know why Racic did it, crazy nationalists is the only thing i can think of lol.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 16:47:10 GMT -5
I'm not asking if he was popular or crazy, I don't agree with everything he was about either. I was saying where does it say in 1863 anything nasty toward anyone under his idea of a Croatian state? It doesn't. You don't know why Radic was murdered? Oh my someone hasn't read his history books. He was murdered for his views. I know why he was murdered, by why in God's name in parliament? Why make him a martyr? That only paved way for faster "awakening" among the Croat population. Vladko Macek is testament to that. One man. His view was not popular whatsoever. Starcevic was a lunatic, and the only ones that thought like him were some of the Ustase, and even some of them found him to be too extreme. This is a separate incident from the Radic assassination. I still don't understand why in God's name they killed him, when he did nothing but look out for the good of Croats without harming anyone else in Kr. Yugoslavia. You said thats the only name you could think of so i thought you were looking for another name (before Racic) that has something to do with fear/hatred between Serbs/Croats In all honesty (And my one belief), the only thing I can trace back the fear/hatred Croats/Serbs have towards eachother is on the name Punisa Racic. Anyways dont know why Racic did it, crazy nationalists is the only thing i can think of lol. Yes I know what you're getting at, and thanks for answering my question. I'm not trying to belittle the severity of Starcevic's views, but he had no significant movement behind him, nor did he succeed in anything other than making a couple of Ustase wet 80 odd years after.
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 16:49:52 GMT -5
for radovic, I still never quote him or anyone else. My response was to other's asking about what I think about that and yes it was his response to his feelings in what he felt was an impending invasion. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't need anything else to support my views, because believe you me there are lots I could add here from all sides. As I said before the proof is in the pudding, the whole 5 years of blood on ALL sides. You mention Starcevic above, in which section of his constitution is there a hatred toward any ethnicity, race or religion? Everyone is represented there equally. Oh my there isn't is there? To illyria, doesn't change the fact that your trying to mimize the signifcance of his quote bys responding to Skoric "Any opposition would say it." Lol. Your claim on Starcevic is absurd, yes the laws Slobo had in Serbia regarding minorities were rather liberal -- doesn't change the fact that his government was bad for minorities and that the government had a dislike for minorities. This is like saying "the original u.s. constiution never endorsed slavery" but yet the original U.S. government viewed blacks as being 2/5 of a person.
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 16:51:38 GMT -5
Yes he was murdered for collaborating with the opposition. He was murdered for being an izdajica. Though he probably thought he was doing the right thing for Croatia which I can understand, but can't you see who he couldn't trust but he tried? And that cost his life. Was it worth it?
Ok from now on I will post every single quote and video on Karadzic, Milosevic and co, and maybe one day, maybe while I am still alive god willing Serbs will understand why Croatia and Bosnia had to eventually defend their homelands. But still then I don't think you will get it.
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Anthologic
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Post by Anthologic on Apr 22, 2009 17:00:29 GMT -5
Ok from now on I will post every single quote and video on Karadzic, Milosevic and co, and maybe one day, maybe while I am still alive god willing Serbs will understand why Croatia and Bosnia had to eventually defend their homelands. But still then I don't think you will get it. You do realize that milosevic/serbia had no intention of going to war with croatia (yes he did arm the separatists, no one is denying that)? In fact he and tudjman regularly had meetings regarding bosnia and how to carve it up between themselves, and that's one thing you cannot deny is that tudjman was very much interested in annexing croat parts of bosnia into croatia.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 17:02:13 GMT -5
It wasn't worth it for the movement, but it was worth it for the speed at which it went. The Serb population in the respective Ex-SFRJ SR's wanted Self-Preservation of Culture and Language (At least written form - Cyrillic). Due to the history and nature of extremist Governments, which came to power in Croatia and BiH pushed them to the edge because of the propaganda campaign that Beograd started to initialize in. On the other side, Croats were afraid of being assimilated in a Serb-Dominated Yugoslavia, and wanted Self-Preservation of Culture and Language, which prompted the Government for a fly or die situation. Declaring independence was to insure that Croats had a nation they can call "home". Throw in Propaganda, History, Revised History, Extremists, Nationalist, Ultranationalists, Failing Economics, Dropping standards of life, Job Loss, Overall Stress, a confused People, and some Self-Proclaimed Patriots... what do you get? This.. symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/nuclear_explosion.jpg
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 17:08:22 GMT -5
Anthologic, I am not denying anything you said just above except for one thing. If everyone DID not want this to happen and if no one is responsible then why let it happen. Clearly they wanted it so stop excuses for the actions of Milosevic.
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Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
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Post by Anthologic on Apr 22, 2009 17:39:44 GMT -5
Because those serbs have been living there for hundreds of years and they are not croatian?
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 17:53:48 GMT -5
Ok from now on I will post every single quote and video on Karadzic, Milosevic and co, and maybe one day, maybe while I am still alive god willing Serbs will understand why Croatia and Bosnia had to eventually defend their homelands. But still then I don't think you will get it. You do realize that milosevic/serbia had no intention of going to war with croatia (yes he did arm the separatists, no one is denying that)? In fact he and tudjman regularly had meetings regarding bosnia and how to carve it up between themselves, and that's one thing you cannot deny is that tudjman was very much interested in annexing croat parts of bosnia into croatia. He didn't arm them. The TDF's meant weapons were already their, MUP did nothing to stop the trafficking weapons to Bosnia or any other war support because if Milosevic did anything to do this the most violent, armed and agressive Serbs (does from Bosnia, of whom there were over half a million in Serbia at the time) would have started a civil war. Djindjic said the same thing as to why he wouldn't extradite Karadzic with the situation in 2001.
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 19:08:33 GMT -5
Anthologic, you are diverting the issue. This was not a civial war. This was not a war started by Croatia to exterminate the ethnic Serb population of whom were already there, whatever if they claimed to be Croatians or not.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 19:14:53 GMT -5
Yugoslavia could have continued its existence if only there was huge measures taken in 1982 and on to drastically change the Constitution into a more liberal one; thereby changing economic/taxation laws, administrative divisions, major political reform, and way more religious freedom. It could have worked out only if it started immediately after Tito's death, but nobody had that much influence to do such a thing. It could have been a success if Stambolic and Markovic put their heads together, but it didn't happen, and all went down the drain.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 19:27:42 GMT -5
^And amen to that! :-)
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paja
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Post by paja on Apr 22, 2009 22:54:33 GMT -5
I think liberalism is what procured the dissolution. The only way Yugoslavia was kept together during numerous "nationalistic" rallies was through the Iron Fist of Tito. As soon as he died, the freedom to express nationalism exploded. Since the repercussions of holding these rallies was relatively low, nationalism snowballed into an inevitable separation between states. In my mind, it was the totalitarianism in Tito that kept the state together, and the relaxation of such expressions that dissolved it. Albeit, there might be more to the story, a combination of things, but to me this seems to be the main reason. Yugoslavia needed a ruler with an Iron Fist after Tito, which it didn't posses.
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 23:43:14 GMT -5
Yugoslavia could have continued its existence if only there was huge measures taken in 1982 and on to drastically change the Constitution into a more liberal one; thereby changing economic/taxation laws, administrative divisions, major political reform, and way more religious freedom. It could have worked out only if it started immediately after Tito's death, but nobody had that much influence to do such a thing. It could have been a success if Stambolic and Markovic put their heads together, but it didn't happen, and all went down the drain. It could have continued, a good idea would have been to abolish the presidency seats of Vojvodina and Kosovo. Honestly this was probably the main reason Slobo rose to power. You had areas that were part of Serbia obstructing Serbia at the presidency and even at the republican level. You had a situation in Yugoslavia similar to that of the West Lothian question in UK.
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Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
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Post by Anthologic on Apr 23, 2009 2:59:07 GMT -5
This was not a civial war. This was not a war started by Croatia to exterminate the ethnic Serb population of whom were already there, whatever if they claimed to be Croatians or not. Pray tell, what was it then?
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