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Post by Kastorianos on May 28, 2009 7:03:19 GMT -5
That doesnt bar you from making further remarks on it.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 28, 2009 7:56:28 GMT -5
Where did I say that? I merely used that example of the Arvanites in Corinth. I did not say he didn't see any Albanians in Ioannina. He did actually. They're a small community there now, all Orthodox and on the verge of assimilation. Or they were on the verge. Now, it is 2009, and the only Albanians of 2009 left in Ioannina are probably all immigrants from modern days.
I was not talking of the period before the 1900s. I am talking about the later period. Arvanitika was preserved well into the 20th century (it still is, but the number of speakers has dwindled to include only elderlies), however a combination of urbanization and deliberate policy of Hellenization, led to the gradual assimilation of Arvanitika speakers. In Epirus, the Chams were expelled in 1945, while their Orthodox compatriots were left behind, as an easier target of assimilation. My father met one of them in Ioannina, though I am not certain if he was merely a resident there or if his roots were from that town/district (his profession was that of a sailor). The man went to school and got beaten by the teacher for speaking his mother tongue ... nuku vajta me (I never went back) were his words and the reason for becoming a sailor.
As for Vlach; the Vlachs were/are all Orthodox and never were a political factor that could be judged as a threat to Greece in any way. They never developed a true Vlach consciousness, and their main profession seems to have been related to animal husbandry. Them speaking Vlach wasn't a "threat" ... but somehow I think that the preservation of Vlach speech in the districts you mentioned is more related to isolation and their conservative way of living rather than the liberal policy of local Greek authorities. Not to mention they were never exposed to expulsions of any sort, and so their compact numbers were preserved, which is a good condition for the preservation of a language.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 28, 2009 8:37:07 GMT -5
So you are implying, there was an arbanite community in Ioannina in 1988? Can your father mention specific region of the town? Because it is the first time i hear about it. At 1986 i kind of left the town to go to Crete to study. Was there any events between 1986->1988 that i missed?
" The man went to school and got beaten by the teacher for speaking his mother tongue ... nuku vajta me (I never went back) were his words and the reason for becoming a sailor."
Thats science fiction... (also please use only greek or english in this forum, thx).
"Them speaking Vlach wasn't a "threat" ... but somehow I think that the preservation of Vlach speech in the districts you mentioned is more related to isolation and their conservative way of living rather than the liberal policy of local Greek authorities. Not to mention they were never exposed to expulsions of any sort, and so their compact numbers were preserved, which is a good condition for the preservation of a language."
before 1922, we had Ioannites Turks who felt completely Ioannites, they spoke both Turkish and Greek, they made donations to the town, and cursed the time in 1922 when they had to flee to turkey, due to the exchange of populations.... So i dont see any forceful helenization in the center of the town either, if mountainous and remote areas is your argument.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 12:32:46 GMT -5
Cant you see the difference between 10 schools in Ioannina and the word "MANY"? Anyway, in any local survey done in Ioannina region, pre-1918 someone could find turkos, vlahs but no arbos. Albanians were not registered as an Ethnic group in the Ottoman Empire. That was out chief beef with the Porte: Their refusal to recognize an Albanian milet. Arnavutluk, however, existed as an unofficial entity and was recognized as far south as Preveza. And what registers are you talking about? Last Pre-1918 registers I heard didnt recognize anything other than religious groups. Aww fuk... I did it again. Alright. This time is for real...
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on May 28, 2009 13:30:27 GMT -5
Thats science fiction... (also please use only greek or english in this forum, thx). He cited an Arvanite speaking in his dialect and according to the esteemed Greek linguists Arvanitika is not Albanian but Greek hence the usage of the dialect should be allowed in this forum just like any other Greek dialect
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on May 28, 2009 16:55:54 GMT -5
Arvanites didn't lose their language because of an intolerable pressure from the state. Greek state, having in charge not few times Arvanites as primeministers, ministers etc, was the same insensible for the linguistically and historically very precious Greek dialects of Tsakones, Pontians, Sarakatsanis etc etc.
Arvanitic language was/is considered by Arvanites as an undeveloped language usefull only for the communication with other members of the community. The rise of the Albanian nationalism in the end of 20th century and the failed attempts to go into partnership with Albanians,muslims and christians, from the Greek state, was the crucial point that Arvanitika started the vertical fall of the usage of the arvanitic language. There is a relation between "Albanian nationalism" and "usage of arvanitika"...when the first is risen up the latter falls down. The sockdolager for arvanitika happened in 90's, when these semi-savage masses of thousands of immigrants appeared in Greek society, and Arvanites would never wanted to be associated with these "Alvanous". Do you think that all these youtube albanian commenters, when they post videos about Arvanites, they give a sh!t about their language and identity of Arvanites? If they did, they would respect Arvanites' "solid historic choise" to be part of the Greek nation. What would you say if we fulled youtube with videos about Tourkocretans...they were strongly opposed to their orthodox compatriots even if they were brothers and cousins... Now make the comparison with Arvanites who have moved here 5-6 centuries ago, adopted the Greek language and way of living, fought for Greece, married with the rest of Greeks, and in no way they don't want to be related with Albanians(in the way you do)...
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 17:05:56 GMT -5
That is BS as well. Many Arvanites communities around Attica were often compelled to stop speaking the language openly. Government in Athens called it barbaric and wanted to stomp it down. Was there any attempt made to try and have the language taught in school next to Greek in various communties? Not to mention the Metaxas regime alongside that of Papandreou were openly opposed to it. Arvanites who moved to the cities were even castigates for their origin, the same way many Himara Albanians were in Tirana during the urbanization years.
Btw, people dont make historic choices. The Arvanites were influenced by the social developments that surrounded them and were thus influenced. They were never given an A,B or C option.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on May 28, 2009 17:25:42 GMT -5
Do you think that a group of people can forget its language because of 4-5 years of Metaxas' rule? There were about 10 Arvanites primeministers/dictators... what do you think prevented them of making some movements in order to preserve the arvanitika?...the community itself would react strongly as they did every time they were objects of antihellenic propaganda. The decision of their parents was that that prevented young arvanitopoula to learn the language...if they though that the preservation of this language would be helpful for their child's life they would let him to learn it...there wasn't anything easier...epsecially when they lived in the village...Parents themselves wouldn't leave the grandparent to speak arvanitika in front of the children.
I don't say that it was good, but thats how it was...
I have Arvanites friends, and they all agree that what is now happening from Albos is the final shot for the language...as much as its preserved in some villages.
And when I say "historic choise" I mean that Arvanites back then in the one two previous centuries could be part of the Albanian nationalist movement...but it didn't happen , just because Arvanites felt much more in common with the rest of Greeks than the Ottomanised Tourkalvanous...
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 18:06:13 GMT -5
If the stigma developed against it is strong enough. And what im saying isnt my own, its from various Greek study journals Ive looked into. How long did Papandreou last?
I bet they would. Members of*given community are often the most repressive towards their own... Enver Hoxha had a number of Greek minority members in his cabinet, plenty. Although they supported their group (since there is more difference between Albanians and Greeks of Albania than Arvanites and Greeks), they would have sold out their community in a second if it proved they were more loyal to Hoxha.
Exactly, because of outside stigma. Do you think those Albanians in Greece would say "eimai vorioepirotis" if there wasnt a stigma against a people. The Arvanites considered their language primitive because of the mentality of Greeks around them and with the way Greek nationalism developed. If there was never a problem with being Arvanites, there would have been no negative feelings against it.
I can honestly say: Good! The sooner that ugly dialect of Albanian dies, the sooner Albs can forget about that trash! To forget a language because of inat against another group is the epitome of the village mind.
No they couldnt. Albanian nationalism didnt reach any significant height until the 19th century, by then the Arvanites had long since been completely swept in the Greek state. And it would have been impossible for them anyway, since they lived nowhere near Albanians.
Btw, ever heard of Anastas Kuluriotis? He was an Arvanitis from Athens who joined the Albanian League of Prizren... and was later assassinated when he re-entered Greece from Albania.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 28, 2009 23:33:26 GMT -5
Cant you see the difference between 10 schools in Ioannina and the word "MANY"? Anyway, in any local survey done in Ioannina region, pre-1918 someone could find turkos, vlahs but no arbos. Albanians were not registered as an Ethnic group in the Ottoman Empire. That was out chief beef with the Porte: Their refusal to recognize an Albanian milet. Arnavutluk, however, existed as an unofficial entity and was recognized as far south as Preveza. And what registers are you talking about? Last Pre-1918 registers I heard didnt recognize anything other than religious groups. Aww fuk... I did it again. Alright. This time is for real... If there were any arbos, we would have noticed. I am not talking about registered ethnic groups, since albos were clearly registered as the turkest of all turks, but i am talking about arbo language. no sign of it. live with it.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 23:44:44 GMT -5
Lol, Suliotes alone disprove this... Let alone other groups. I can give you sources if you want? British and French travelogues.
Anyway, your knowledge of history is pretty dim, so its not worth continuing.
You can respond to this, but dont expect a response back from now on. I wont waste finger energy.
If you like to spend your energy otherwise, you are free to refrain from posting here, if it is unpleasant to you. BTW What is "finger energy"? some new form of energy? LMAO
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 29, 2009 2:07:11 GMT -5
Lol, Suliotes alone disprove this... Let alone other groups. I can give you sources if you want? British and French travelogues. Anyway, your knowledge of history is pretty dim, so its not worth continuing. You can respond to this, but dont expect a response back from now on. I wont waste finger energy. If you were following the thread, i was talking about Ioannina, Dodoni region and the Ioannina Prefecture. Of course in Souli/Thesprotia there were arbos. Of course in Syrako/Kalarytes they spoke latin. But arbos in Ioannina, is clearly a fantasy.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on May 29, 2009 4:57:46 GMT -5
Btw, ever heard of Anastas Kuluriotis? He was an Arvanitis from Athens who joined the Albanian League of Prizren... and was later assassinated when he re-entered Greece from Albania. ;DYes,yes...and Aristidis Kollias was assasinated with chemicals... ....Mendor...is that you??? Koulouriotis was on his own...he didn't find support from the rest Arvanites...neither from Albos... And btw Papandreou(the grandfather) didn't give a sh!t about that kind of subjects...and believe it or not...he hasn't governed more than 3 years...totally... ...you just know nothing about the Greek things...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 29, 2009 6:45:40 GMT -5
Toskaliu cannot comprehend that even in the case that a substantial arbo community was to be organized, their language simply could not beat greek, in terms of tradition, legacy, wealth of expression, etc...
Arbo language was a lost card, since day one.
Look at kosovo, 10% of the population has dominated culturally over the rest 90%.... So it would be a miracle in Greece, the arbos being a minority, to do smth remarkable, they cant make it even if they are the majority.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 29, 2009 15:35:35 GMT -5
Dont judge them this way, you sound somewhat audacious. You dont know the language and also not their speakers. Those "lost-card"-language speakers as you call them fought and died for the idependence of your country that is simultaneously theirs. Or did any Serbs or other Slavkos free Ioannina perhaps?
This language didnt beat Greek because its speakers first and most important of all never had such intentions. They felt Greek and they wanted a Greek state.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 29, 2009 15:45:01 GMT -5
Again, this isnt from me. This is from a Greek. 'Cultural Polyphony and Identity Formation: Negotiating Tradition in Attica' by Dimitra Gefou-Madianou
How so? Have you compared the ratio of Kosovo Serbs scholars to Kosovo Albanian ones or something? Last thing I knew Kosovo Serbs themselves were often the subject of derision in Belgrade. Oh right... you value culture by the amount of churches a land can s**t out and by your own innate (I call it innate because I have noticed most of your people think the same) belief (or in your case, 'truth') that Albanians are just savage animals.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 30, 2009 0:16:43 GMT -5
Dont judge them this way, you sound somewhat audacious. You dont know the language and also not their speakers. Those "lost-card"-language speakers as you call them fought and died for the idependence of your country that is simultaneously theirs. Or did any Serbs or other Slavkos free Ioannina perhaps? This language didnt beat Greek because its speakers first and most important of all never had such intentions. They felt Greek and they wanted a Greek state. - Serbs AND Vardarians gave us western thrace (read a little bit, because the current political propaganda trends does not favor the advertising of the events in WWI) BTW, during this campaign they lost 1,000,000 ppl, if this is of any importance to you. - Look at how albos view Ioannina: Albania as a county was established in November 1912Correct. The Albanian leader Ismail Qemal entered Durrës before the arrival of the Serbs and from there advanced on Vlora, where a National Assembly representing all the regions of Albania (the valiats of Shkodra, Kosovo, Janina and Monastir) proclaimed the independence on 28 November 1912. Later on, it was divided and usurped. But i guess you never got to enjoy the land of Kosovo. It is Achilles heel. - Τα ονόματα Βάσος Μαυροβουνιώτης, Στέφαν Νίβιτσ, σου λένε τίποτε? Σέρβοι ήταν, slavkos Τους στρατηγούς Χατζή-Χρήστο και Χατζή-Στεφανή τους ξέρεις? Βούλγαροι, slavkos και αυτοί.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 30, 2009 0:20:05 GMT -5
Γενικά ρε Καστορ, τι προτιμάς? Φίλους που να γράφουν και κανα ποίημα, που να ξέρουν να γυρνάνε και μια βίδα, ή φίλους που ξέρουν να παίζουν στο κλαρίνο μόνο 5 ηλίθιες νότες και να αρμέγουν τα πρόβατα?
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 2:39:19 GMT -5
Pyrro whatever they "gave" us...it was not without self-interest or selfishness. You cant compare them with the Arvanites who were an inner part of our revolution.
Ti les more gia eksakriwose poioi einai autoi pou kseroun na armegoun ta prowata mono kai na paizoun klarino?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 30, 2009 3:22:28 GMT -5
Kastor, den mporeis na me kaneis na agaphsw mia fylh me thn opoia den exw oiadhpote sxesh, kai h opoia politismika den exei prosferei tipote kai se kanenan.
einai poly apla ta pramata.
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