ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 15, 2009 4:42:26 GMT -5
So I wanna know, do u think they are Bulgarians? I know the Serbs think they are "Macedonians" or Bulgariezed Serbs or transitional people between Serbs and Bulgarians. Who do u think they are? Why do u think they got "Macedonized" if they arent "Macedonians"?
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 4:48:13 GMT -5
Hm...I know that Macedonians are Greeks.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 15, 2009 5:00:40 GMT -5
I agree, thats why i put them into quotation marks. I meant the people from FYROM the one that claim to be Macedonians. I agree the Macedonians were northern Hellenic tribe, not very different from the southern ones: Athenians, Spartans. Maybe they were using hellenic dialect.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 5:07:16 GMT -5
Ah you are talking about the Skopjans. I believe they belong to the Bulgarian ethnicity, at least their forefathers. Their language suggests this assumption. And also their appearance.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 15, 2009 8:03:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry Ioan, you have asked our greek brothers and sisters for their opinion, fair enough. But history will suggest they are serbians, warped by the turkish backed bulgarian exarchos for 42 years, again:
"It is understandable that the Turks preferred the patient and submissive Bulgar to the rebellious Serb or Greek. Since the Serbian principality had gained its freedom, the Turks regarded every Serb who declared himself to be such as a rebellious conspirator against the Turkish regime. This circumstance was widely exploited by the Bulgars in order to spread their propaganda among the Serbs outside the principality. Whoever was reluctant to become a Bulgar and persisted in calling himself a Serb was denounced to the Turks as conspiring with Serbia, and could expect severe punishment. Serbian priests were maltreated; permission was refused to open Serbian schools and those that were already in existence were closed; Serbian monasteries were destroyed. In order to avoid persecution, the population renounced its nationality and called itself Bulgarian........during the last thirty or forty years, propaganda has been rife in which the Bulgars have encouraged the Turks to act against Serbs and Greeks. Hence, throughout Macedonia, Thrace and Dardania, Slavs are considered to be Bulgars, which is quite incorrect. On the contrary, the Slavs in Macedonia are incapable of understanding a Bulgar from Jantra. If it is desired to designate these Slavs correctly, than they must be considered as Serbs, for the Serbian name is so popular among them that for example male children are sometimes christened "Srbin" [Serb]. the Serbian hero of the folk poems, Marko Kraljevich is obviously the Serbian ruler in Macedonia."
Alexander von Heksch "Die Donau von ihrem Ursprung bis an die Mundung",Leipzig,1885,pp.636
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 15, 2009 8:09:15 GMT -5
^ a pettition from the vardarians themselves describing the effects that the exarchos was imposing onto the population.
Request of the Serbs from the village of Bašino, near Veles (central FYROM) to the Deèani Ieromonach Ruvim, 1887.
"To the honorable gentlemen Ruvim the Ieromonach of the Monastery of Visoki Deèani
The inhabitants of the Bašino village community until ten years ago have instructed their youth in the school of theirs in pure Serbian language, and were distinguished by thath, that they never approached Bulgarian preachers.
But for ten years in the Serbian school of the village of Bašino, the Bulgarian language is taught, not by the will of the inhabitants, but by force from several persons
And that science which is being taught in our school in Bulgarian language is devastating our society, and we cannot get rid of it because, we do not have - as always before ten years- a Serbian teacher.
We decided, to ask Mr. Ruvim, to send us a Slavic teacher, which will teach our youth on the natural Serbian and not unnatural Bulgarian alphabet, which for our speech is worthless, since our words, sveæa, ðubre etc. cannot be written in the Bulgarian alphabet. In hope that our request will be received, we remain.
28th December 1887, Bašino village
Seen by: Rufim Serafimovic Monastery V. Deèani (Turksih seal from Deèani)
Humble dwellers of the village community of Bašino:
Ando Dzimat Manèe Pulšor Petar M Tašov Andrea Višniæ Kole Panov Diman Gigo DZimrev Nikola Miceviæ Jovan Aneviæ Joavan Dimanin Lazo Minciæ Zafir Ranðeloviæ Risto Paple Andria Eplun Tošo Dimkoviæ Dushmoroviæ Sazdo Dimov Koce Dolev
(Diplomatic Archive-Diplomatski arhiv III, department-odelenje F. I 13/1887)”
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 15, 2009 8:46:39 GMT -5
So u are citing some German who didnt know Bulgarian or Serbian and a petition from a Serbian village. Haha. That doesnt make the scopians Serbian Novi. Greeks should know better. They ve been our neighbours. You can not fool them as u fooled the world they are "Macedonians".
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 15, 2009 9:35:39 GMT -5
Serbian professor and politician Stojan Novakovich; excerpt of letter to Vladan Djordjevich, minister of education of Serbia, 1887:
"Since the Bulgarian idea, as we all very well know, has deep roots in Macedonia, I think that it is impossible to exterminate it if we oppose to it the Serbian idea alone. I doubt that this idea will be able to suppress the Bulgarian idea as long as it is a mere confrontation. Therefore, we would greatly profit from an ally, sharply confronted with Bulgarianism, and including in itself elements that would attract the people and which would be intimate to his feelings - it is precisely they that will split it from Bulgarianism. This ally in my view is Macedonism, or in definite and wisely set boundaries, presentation of Macedonian dialect and Macedonian specifics. There is nothing more opposing to Bulgarian tendencies than this — there is no other situation where Bulgarians can find themselves in more unrest than against Macedonism."
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 15, 2009 9:36:38 GMT -5
Split them!
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 15, 2009 14:28:31 GMT -5
The Slavs who call themselves 'Makedonski' are either Bulgarian or Serbian depending on what part of the country there ancestors originated in. If they were from the Skopje area then they are Serbians but the rest, being the vast majority, are Bulgarian.
But that is not a nationality question but an ethnicity one. They are nationaly Skojians/FYROM's but ethnically Serb and Bulgarian.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 16:03:54 GMT -5
Who cares what they are, they are not Greek, thus not Macedonian, thats what counts only.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 15, 2009 18:22:13 GMT -5
Serbian professor and politician Stojan Novakovich; excerpt of letter to Vladan Djordjevich, minister of education of Serbia, 1887:
"Since the Bulgarian idea, as we all very well know, has deep roots in Macedonia, I think that it is impossible to exterminate it if we oppose to it the Serbian idea alone. I doubt that this idea will be able to suppress the Bulgarian idea as long as it is a mere confrontation. Therefore, we would greatly profit from an ally, sharply confronted with Bulgarianism, and including in itself elements that would attract the people and which would be intimate to his feelings - it is precisely they that will split it from Bulgarianism. This ally in my view is Macedonism, or in definite and wisely set boundaries, presentation of Macedonian dialect and Macedonian specifics. There is nothing more opposing to Bulgarian tendencies than this — there is no other situation where Bulgarians can find themselves in more unrest than against Macedonism."
Thats right Ioan, to save these people from complete bulgarisation because the turkish backed bulgarian exarchos exploited the situation....example the petition above.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 16, 2009 3:22:52 GMT -5
I agree that now they are smth different. All I want is that they admit they USED TO identify as Bulgarians till the Serbs lost Bosnia and looked at bg lands.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 16, 2009 3:45:40 GMT -5
Macedonians have always been Greeks, always wrote in Greek, worshiped the same Greek Gods and spread the Greek culture to the then known world. Fyrom’s peoples are of Slavic / Bulgar decent with a few other mixed minorities including the Albanians. 1) It's getting tiring stealing the culture and history of your neighbors. 2) It's time to face the truth. And; And. “The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimate themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.” -Denko Maleski, Foreign Minister of FYROM from 1991 to 1993. And. Here is an example of the alphabet, now look at the similarities with Bulgarian and Serbian alphabets; You all know what the real Macedonian language is right ? if not go visit a real museum. Personally this country should indeed be split in pieces. Now some Former Yugoslavs come here to educate us who I and Basili along with other 2.8 Million Greek Macedonians are lol
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Post by rusebg on Jan 16, 2009 4:04:57 GMT -5
All the letters in fyrom's alphabet that are different to Bulgaria's were introduced after 1945.
Novi, I guess you can justify any claim of yours with the Exarchate. And a single petition from a village in the middle of nowhere signed by a few Serbs is a true reresentation of the feeling of the entire area? lol
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Post by macmako on Jan 16, 2009 9:36:15 GMT -5
Please everyone. It is impressive how much you all care but they already know what their nationality is. There is no need to figure it out for them.
But it's the thought that counts.
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Post by diurpaneus on Jan 16, 2009 10:20:56 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 17, 2009 2:21:51 GMT -5
"I agree that now they are smth different. All I want is that they admit they USED TO identify as Bulgarians till the Serbs lost Bosnia and looked at bg lands."
Bulgarian lands?...Ioan, find me anything *prior* to the in 19th century that describes these people as Bulgarian. Historians that have described these people from the 19th century as Bulgarians did so during the period of the Exarchos....sadly references from today are fed from those 19th century sources, which is absoultely misleading.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 17, 2009 2:28:08 GMT -5
"Novi, I guess you can justify any claim of yours with the Exarchate. And a single petition from a village in the middle of nowhere signed by a few Serbs is a true reresentation of the feeling of the entire area? lol"
There were a few more petitions that l have shown in vardar forum, however, these arn't justifications, they are facts.
When l get some time during the week l'll again post regarding the exarchate here for people to see.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 17, 2009 4:26:30 GMT -5
i gave you countless prooves but u are just stubborn. The Exarchate CANNOT make one language change its entire grammer. The Exarchate CANNOT make sintatic language (Serbian) into analytical (Bulgarian). But I m giving up. You are from the Torlakian regions, where the dialect is ANALYTICAL and u wanna proove that fyroms are Serbian so that u can be sure u are.
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