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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 12:19:38 GMT -5
o.k,let me get this straight...you really believe that ancient macedonians werent slavs...although you are half slav with origin from greece..but on the other hand you refuse the greekness of ancient macedonians as well...even the fact that culturally speaking they belonged to the hellenic world??? Why do you people insist on focusing on me. I am not that important, am I? Okay, one last try. Of course, the ancient Macedonians were not Slavs. Why? Do you have doubts? Again you are wrong, as always. I am half Macedonian Slav with origins from Greece. Now, take your ritalin so we can focus on the thread. No more off track attempts. I would like to see some real discussion here about the subject of the thread instead of all these curious questions about me.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 12:22:51 GMT -5
Instigating, I do not think so insult hurler. You are well known to crack under pressure and hurl insults [must be your Bulgarian genes]... you are too easy. So, this is your reason for being here. I thought so. I am sorry that this is the only reason that you are here, and that you have shown so far a lack of intelligent engagement. But everyone must be given a chance. I am sure you will rather engage in intelligent conversation than to come here to instigate. Intelligent conversation is much more rewarding than unintelligent attacking babble. Please do come around sooner than later. Welcome, Areianos. We will see who is the easy one. ;D
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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 13:10:05 GMT -5
I have found this example of a coin from Potidaea. These coins were in circulation 500-429 B.C. On the coin, you can see a sun or star under the horse riden by Poseidon Hippios. Is it the Macedonian Sun? What is your opinion?
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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 13:50:13 GMT -5
Of course. It is called this because it was found there. This area was the seat of the great Ancient Macedonian empire. But being of an open mind, and not taking anything away from the glorious Macedonian Sun, it does not mean that it originated there.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 18, 2008 15:07:51 GMT -5
So GS, are you applying this to the Greeks? I really hope your not. Funny how that article discusses Greece as a country using the Vergina Star as in order to create prestige, history, and authenticity. A country that is more than 170 years old, but doesn't mention FYROM or Albania. Both which are the 2 youngest nations in the Balkans. The Greek do nothing but DEFEND their cultural heritage not use it to make themselves feel better. That is a concern for new countries not old. Furthermore the Greeks are not using archaeology to support their status considering the English, French, German, Russian, Americans and so on do enough of that for the Greeks! We Greeks KNOW who we are and need no archaeology to reinforce such knowledge. Meanwhile the newly created nations are the ones who need to create a sense of belonging in their regions and come up with fantasy ancestors in order to make themselves feel better and to reinforce what they are uncertain of. This is the truth for all countries and doesn't apply only to Greece and it's neighbors.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 18, 2008 15:15:26 GMT -5
Of course. It is called this because it was found there. This area was the seat of the great Ancient Macedonian empire. But being of an open mind, and not taking anything away from the glorious Macedonian Sun, it does not mean that it originated there. The Vergina Star or other variants of the 8 and 16 point Sun are purely Hellenic in Origin. It was NOT exclusive to Macedonia. It was actually, if I remember correct, a symbol of Apollo. Even the Athenians used it. The the star/sun is actually a Hellenic symbol and not necessarily 'Macedonian'.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 15:33:08 GMT -5
I am merely stating that many symbols of the past are used in a negative manner, and finds are sometimes used for political reasons. In the example of the Macedonian Sun, the Greeks have the right to use this symbol for prestige, but the Macedonian Slavs have no right to it because they are not connected to the ancient Macedonians. Now, this symbol is used politically by both the Greeks and the Macedonian slavs in a very big political dissagreement.
I partly disagree. The Macedonian sun is indeed used as a prestigious symbol for the Greeks but in a positive way. It is part of their history. Greeks do not need to defend their cultural heritage because we all know who it belongs to. It is the fanatical Macedonian Slavs that use the symbol when they in fact are not connected to the Ancient Macedonians.
Yes, indeed. And that is why I beleive we should not be so consumed by it.
Now, let's continue with the nature of the Macedonian Sun:
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Post by greekslav on Jan 18, 2008 15:35:00 GMT -5
Of course. It is called this because it was found there. This area was the seat of the great Ancient Macedonian empire. But being of an open mind, and not taking anything away from the glorious Macedonian Sun, it does not mean that it originated there. The Vergina Star or other variants of the 8 and 16 point Sun are purely Hellenic in Origin. It was NOT exclusive to Macedonia. It was actually, if I remember correct, a symbol of Apollo. Even the Athenians used it. The the star/sun is actually a Hellenic symbol and not necessarily 'Macedonian'. I'll get back with you on this. Lamb and pita/tzadziki await me!!!
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 18, 2008 15:51:11 GMT -5
I am merely stating that many symbols of the past are used in a negative manner, and finds are sometimes used for political reasons. In the example of the Macedonian Sun, the Greeks have the right to use this symbol for prestige, but the Macedonian Slavs have no right to it because they are not connected to the ancient Macedonians. Now, this symbol is used politically by both the Greeks and the Macedonian slavs in a very big political dissagreement.I partly disagree. The Macedonian sun is indeed used as a prestigious symbol for the Greeks but in a positive way. It is part of their history. Greeks do not need to defend their cultural heritage because we all know who it belongs to. It is the fanatical Macedonian Slavs that use the symbol when they in fact are not connected to the Ancient Macedonians.Yes, indeed. And that is why I beleive we should not be so consumed by it.Now, let's continue with the nature of the Macedonian Sun: What it comes down to is that if left unchecked people other than the well-educated will be confused between Ancient Macedonia and the modern nation called 'Macedonia'. I know of Archaeologist here in the U.S who confuse the two. The problem is word assimilation. If people hear the name of the country 'Macedonia' they automatically connect it to Alexander the Great. This is what myself and others are fighting against. The small minority of extremist in and out of FYROM are the problem because they are the ones who are the most vocal. The non-extremist is quiet and not heard. This is what we all need to fight against, the small minority who many just dismiss as loud mouths. You can look back into history and see how many loud mouths have caused the worst problems in the world. They dismissed their rants as irrelevant because there were few in number. This is why those extremist should not be allowed to use those symbols.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 18, 2008 18:36:23 GMT -5
Of course. It is called this because it was found there. This area was the seat of the great Ancient Macedonian empire. But being of an open mind, and not taking anything away from the glorious Macedonian Sun, it does not mean that it originated there. Would be nice if you had a holiday, relaxed your mind and read posts carefully. Because you miss very important information; “...the site [Vergina] is of outstanding universal value representing an exceptional testimony to a significant development in European civilization, at the transition from classical city-state to the imperial structure of the Hellenistic and Roman periods.” WORLD HERITAGE COMMITTEE, UNITED NATIONSYour word agaisn't the WORLD HERITAGE COMMITTEE, UNITED NATIONS. Good luck.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 19, 2008 0:16:05 GMT -5
[glow=blue,2,300]Macedonian[/glow] " Vergina Sun" here.. Skopiane pare mati... ;D
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Post by greekslav on Jan 19, 2008 2:55:38 GMT -5
Your Archaeologist friend is not well educated if he is to confuse the two.
We should educate those that need it in order to fight the confusion, and not have to continue to be consumed by who owns our history. NO ONE ELSE BUT THE GREEKS AND THERE SHOULD BE NO JUSTIFICATION OF THIS OWNERSHIP.
This is fanatical nationalsim and it does not come from just the other side. But I agree that those few nuts should stop trying to claim something that is not theirs. Sadly, just like terrorist, it is the few that cause such a stink because they are the loudest.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 19, 2008 3:08:40 GMT -5
I can say the same for some Greeks here. Some are extremists and very vocal, especially those that dismiss an individuals Greekness to attack his Slavic heritage on this thread and every thread possible, when in fact this thread is only about the Macedonian Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol that has nothing to do with the Macedonian Slavs. They say so themselves, yet they persist in bringing up the Macedonian Slavs here on this thread. These fanatics continue with their extremist attacks when it is not needed and certainly not required. Shall we ask politely to end it and hope that this would be enough, or shall we dismiss them as "loud mouths"?
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Post by greekslav on Jan 19, 2008 3:12:55 GMT -5
I believe that the Macedonian sun is specifically the 8 or 16 point/rayed version and the rest is non_ancient Macedonian. I see evidence from my research that the Macedonian Sun was regional, and a good chance that it was the ancient Macedonians that developed this version. The sun/star on the coin from Potidaea looks like one with 7 point/rays.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 19, 2008 3:20:38 GMT -5
I can say the same for some Greeks here. Some are extremists and very vocal, especially those that dismiss an individuals Greekness to attack his Slavic heritage on this thread and every thread possible, when in fact this thread is only about the Macedonian Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol that has nothing to do with the Macedonian Slavs. Your right the Slavs have pride and should be respected so do the Bulgarians, who ever we may seem like extremists, but what do you do when they hide their true identity ? and try and surpass the Greekness of Macedonia with expansionist ideals. WE are refering to a country called FYROM. See here. illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=makedoniamacedonia&action=display&thread=1192945034They change identity like the wind, soon they'll be Egyptians with claims to the Rosetta stone as having their lost Makedonskivichi language which was already translated last century ?.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 19, 2008 3:38:50 GMT -5
The Yugoslav Communist leader Josip Broz Tito separated Yugoslav Macedonia from Serbia after the war. It became a republic of the new federal Yugoslavia (as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) in 1945, with its capital at Skopje. First time the world ever heard of this ethnos where as before it never existed.
Tito also promoted the concept of a separate Macedonian nation, as a means of severing the ties of the Slav population of Yugoslav Macedonia with Bulgaria. Although the Macedonian language is very close to Bulgarian, the differences were deliberately emphasized and the region's historical figures were promoted as being uniquely Macedonian (rather than Serbian or Bulgarian).
A separate Macedonian Orthodox Church was established, splitting off from the Serbian Orthodox Church. The Communist Party sought to deter pro-Bulgarian sentiment, which was punished severely; convictions were still being handed down as late as 1991.
P.s am not rude, just being truthful and that is the truth. Remember it's the truth that’s rude.
Readers from new generations have the right to know this truth.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 19, 2008 3:55:22 GMT -5
" One recurring theme is 'we are going to show you that we have always been here' - or alternatively that 'we have been here before you came'. According to the existing archives there was no objective reference to a "Macedonian" nation, in the beginning of the 20th century. Every official census reported only Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian populations and no "Macedonian" nation. In 1877, according to a map (British E.Stanford 1877) the area of Macedonia was mainly inhabited by Greeks, and in smaller amounts, Albanians, Turks, Vlahs, Serbs, Bulgarians. In 1904 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for Thessaloniki, Monastiri, Scopje doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation. In 1906 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for the area of Macedonia doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation. In 1926 the League of the Nations doesn't report any "Macedonian" nation in Southern Macedonia. Suddenly, in 1948, the encyclopaedia Britannica publishes a census that has discovereded a hidden, for any previous census, "Macedonian" nationality (about 66.1% of the total population in FYROM). Anyway, if the last record is considered reliable then we cannot assume anything else than, that the nation of the so called "Macedonians" was formed suddenly and very recently, sometime between 1926-1948! Now isn't that amazing, or, what? A nation, that young, wishes to get linked to Alexander the Great (who died in 323BC) by identifying itself with an ancient Greek name? If such a nation ever existed, then there should be at least a 10% of "Macedonians" in every census (at least in the turkish census), shouldn't there…................Yeah we're loving that recurring theme lol
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 19, 2008 4:09:55 GMT -5
The Vergina Sun or Star of Vergina is a Greek symbol of a stylised star with sixteen rays Video...
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Post by greekslav on Jan 19, 2008 10:32:34 GMT -5
Wow, Ajax. I am impressed how you drift so extremely from the topic of the thread. Very versatile, multi-taskable and vocally political dude. Let's try this: You start a thread on your political voice and maybe I'll answer the call of the wild. Just maybe!
So, Ajax, do you think that the Macedonian Sun is strictly an Ancient Macedonian creation, or was it taken from another people from the region? I have another question. Looks to me that the star or sun on the coin from Potidaea may just be an 8 pointed/ray star/sun (difficult to see the 8th ray but I beleive it's there). So if it is a Macedonian sun, what is it doing on a coin circulated 500-429 B.C.? Many say that the Macedonian Sun was never seen until the days of Philip and son Alexander the Great?
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Post by greekslav on Jan 19, 2008 10:58:40 GMT -5
We can explain the Macedonian Sun being on the Lycian sarcorphagus. If the age of the sarcorphagus coincides with the day of Alexander the Great, then there is your answer.
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