Post by Niklianos on Dec 2, 2007 15:28:08 GMT -5
albanesehoney said:
Are your serious? Have you even read your own sites body of work? Look what your wiki site says below the intro slogan. lol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
The Pella curse tablet is a curse or magic spell (Greek: κατάδεσμος, katadesmos) inscribed on a lead scroll, dating to the 4th or 3rd century BC. It was found in Pella (at the time capital of Macedon) in 1986 and published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993. It is possibly the only attested text in the ancient Macedonian language (O. Masson).
Dating and significance
The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College prefers a 3rd century BC date.
The former opinion is supported by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).
Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A fourth‐century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."
Ah? So, Macedonian isn't even considered applicable to any sort of correspondence for the working middle class of this era? lolol
Well? So which is it? West, Aeolian, low class Dorian? lol No common agreement as to its origins or it "dialect".
On the link to the ancient Macedonian Language we have the following body of work telling us a different story.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
Independent Palaeo-Balkans language
Meillet and other Indo-Europeanists consider Macedonian an Indo-European language in its own right, not especially close to Greek, and identify it as one of the "Paleo-Balkans" group which also includes Thracian, Phrygian and other poorly attested languages. Schwyzer[8] and others hypothesize that linguistically Macedonian was between Illyrian and Thracian, a kind of intermediary language linking the two, in the sense of a dialect continuum or Sprachbund, since a genetic Thraco-Illyrian unity is highly uncertain and cannot be proven on grounds of the surviving evidence.
In 1999, A. Garrett has surmised that Macedonian may at an early stage have been part of a dialect continuum which spanned the ancestor dialects of all south-western Indo-European languages (including Greek), but that it then remained peripheral to later areal processes of convergence which produced Greek proper.
He argues that under this perspective sound-change isoglosses such as the deaspiration of voiced stops may be of limited diagnostic value, while ultimately the question of whether Macedonian belongs or does not belong to a genetic union with Greek is moot.[9]
Hellenic (Graeco-Macedonian) Group
Some linguists consider that the Macedonian tongue was a sibling language to all the Ancient Greek dialects, and not simply a Greek dialect. If this view is correct, then Macedonian and Greek would be the two subbranches of a group within Indo-European, forming a Graeco-Macedonian supergroup, "which could more properly be called Hellenic".[2] This terminology may lead to misunderstandings, since the "Hellenic branch of Indo-European" is also used synonymously with the Greek branch (which contains all ancient and modern Greek dialects) in a narrower sense.[10]
A number of the Macedonian words, particularly in Hesychius' lexicon, are disputed (i.e., some do not consider them actual Macedonian words) and some may have been corrupted in the transmission. Thus abroutes, may be read as abrouwes (αβρουϝες), with tau (Τ) replacing a digamma (F).[11] If so, this word would perhaps be encompassable within a Greek dialect; however, others (e.g. A. Meillet) see the dental as authentic and think that this specific word would perhaps belong to an Indo-European language different from Greek.
[edit] Ancient Greek dialect
Another school of thought maintains that Macedonian was a Greek dialect. Those who favour a purely Greek nature of Macedonian as a northern Greek dialect are numerous and include early scholars like H. Ahrens and O. Hoffmann.[12] A recent proponent of this school was Professor Olivier Masson, who in his article on the ancient Macedonian language in the third edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary tentatively suggested that Macedonian was related to North-Western Greek dialects:[5]
In our view the Greek character of most names is obvious and it is difficult to think of a Hellenization due to wholesale borrowing [...]
The small minority of names which do not look Greek [...] may be due to a substratum or adstratum influences (as elsewhere in Greece).Macedonian may then be seen as a Greek dialect, characterized by its marginal position and by local pronunciations. Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it an Aeolic dialect [...] we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek [...]
We must wait for new discoveries, but we may tentatively conclude that Macedonian is a dialect related to North-West Greek.
As to Macedonian β, δ, γ = Greek φ, θ, χ, Claude Brixhe[13] suggests that it may have been a later development: The letters may already have designated not voiced stops, i.e. [b, d, g], but voiced fricatives, i.e. [β, δ, γ], due to a voicing of the voiceless fricatives [φ, θ, x] (= Classical Attic [ph, th, kh]). Brian Joseph sums up that "[t]he slender evidence is open to different interpretations, so that no definitive answer is really possible", but cautions that "most likely, Ancient Macedonian was not simply an Ancient Greek dialect on a par with Attic or Aeolic".[2] In this sense, some authors also call it a "deviant Greek dialect."
Here, all the theories of the Macedonian language come to a conclusion that IF Macedonian is accepted as a dialect of ancient Greek, it must be of the NorthWestern Greek variance.
North Western Ancient Greek was the land of Epirus/Mollosian/Thesprotian tribes. Again, the Pelasgians. Again, tribes considered barbarian who didn't speak the language understood by Herodotus/Thucydides/ and so on and so forth.
If this link is the common thinking and theories of the Ancient Macedonian language, then, you haven't even a pebble to stand on, let alone a leg, claiming the Macedonian language as your own. Get a better site that PROVES from carbon dating and from actual letters or notes by alexander or his Macedonian people, or even the Epirote people spoke the same as Herodotus and so on and so forth. Otherwise, you're betting your reputation on evidence that still hasn't been proven to be authentic Hellenic Greek as understood by Herodotus.
Lets start with Meillet. Can you please tell me when he wrote such a thing? Don't bother I will! As stated in the source he lived from 1866-1936. So why is this important? Simple the VAST MAJORITY of inscriptions that have been uncovered in Ancient Macedonia ALL date from the 1960's on! So what doe mean about his opinion? It mean it is OUTDATED because he had none of the inscriptions, none of the grave stelae and none of the Papyrii to look at! I would guarantee that if he had all the epigraphical evidence to look at and study he would have come to the conclusion that Ancient Macedonian was an ancient Greek dialect!
Now for the Macedonians changing from Dorian to the Koine(common) dialect.
How is that proof of the Macedonians did not speak their own form of Greek before Koine became the main trade language around the Greek realm of influence?
What is Koine and when did it first gain use?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek
The Macedonians adopting Koine does not dismiss the FACT that their is nothing BUT Greek writing and LANGUAGE on the various papyrii other inscriptions and grave stelae.
Do you dismiss that the various papyrii were found in Ancient Macedonia and were written in either Aeolic or Dorian Greek? I am not an expert on differentiating Ancient Greek dialects but ALL the linguistic experts acknowledge that it was one or the other STILL making Greek just as stated from what you posted.
"Brian Joseph sums up that '[t]he slender evidence is open to different interpretations, so that no definitive answer is really possible', but cautions that 'most likely, Ancient Macedonian was not simply an Ancient Greek dialect on a par with Attic or Aeolic';.[2] In this sense, some authors also call it a 'deviant Greek dialect
HMMM it seems even though the Ancient Greek dialectic experts differ on wether it was an Aeolic or primitive Dorian diact they AGREE that it was indeed a Greek dailect!
No matter how you try to dismiss it ALL the Har Evidence supports that the Ancient Macedonians spoke their own Greek dialect and they later adopted Koine(just as many other Greeks did!)
You keep trying to dismiss my argument but you are not focusing on what's important! What language did the Ancient Macedonians speak?
We have shown you inscriptions, curses, Grave stelae and all the known Ancient Macedonian names from ancient sources but yet you refuse to acknowledge that their language was Greek. You also have not shown any hard evidence for them speaking anything else!
I challenge you to show us ONE SINGLE inscription from Ancient Macedonia that shows something other than a Greek language!!
If you can I will take your "Theory" into more consideration. But good luck with that because it does not exist. You can look in Bulgaria, FYROM, Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, India, Egypt and anywhere else your heart desires to find one single Ancient Macedonian inscription or writing that shows a language other than Greek!