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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 18:14:12 GMT -5
Cerciz's chief concern was autonomy and ethnic rights, not independence. He even accused the young turks of disloyalty to the greater Ottomanism when Albanians were accused of not being Ottoman enough. Much like all other Albanian figures, besides the Christians. how do you know what his "main" concern was? were you there? Did you ask Cerciz what his favorite color was? His favorite sport? Perhaps he had a hobby only you know about?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 18:21:13 GMT -5
Your mixing history with modern economic situation. Chams were historically the biggest allies of the Turks in Epirus and hence why they held all the best land. The situation has long since turned around for them...
because there are surviving correspondences between him and the Young Turks, I read some of them which were translated by an American Ottomanist from a book he published on this very issue.
The history your giving us was the re-invented trash of Hoxha and co. and of later Albanian historiographers who felt embarrassed by the altogether lack of an independence drive in Albania.
Hell some Albanians even think that the League of Prizren was organized for Albanian independence from the Ottoman Empire...
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 18:38:20 GMT -5
maybe because it was? ? Like I said, Albanian independence had nothing to do with religion, understandibly, those Albanians who had a Turkish father would not want to be independent from the Ottomans, but don't speak for all Albanians, especially since 90% would disagree with you (in this I don't include anyone from Tirana, everyone knows they are Ottoman trash ;D ;D)
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 18:40:59 GMT -5
The League members reaffirmed the Albanian commitment to the Ottoman Empire but demanded the right to unify the four Vilayets into an ethnic one within the Ottoman realm.
You can continue living in your delusions though...
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 18:46:40 GMT -5
The League members reaffirmed the Albanian commitment to the Ottoman Empire but demanded the right to unify the four Vilayets into an ethnic one within the Ottoman realm. You can continue living in your delusions though... you have delusions since no Albanian is pro-Ottoman, even if they don't dislike modern Turkey. All Albanians wanted independence from the Ottoman Empire and those who did not probably had a Turkish father.. Modern Albanians who disagree with that, probably have a Turkish father today.
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Post by Kastorianos on Nov 22, 2008 18:55:41 GMT -5
Melt is the only pro turkish albanian i know, too. ;D At least the ones here...always anti turkish.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 20:56:30 GMT -5
You can thank xhaxhi Enveri for that... Even as late as 60-70 years most Albanians were actually quite favorable to the Ottoman Empire. Do you that at one point the pro-Ottoman/Turkish party of Haxhi Qemal was strong enough that different Albanians tried to court it for support for a while (both Zog and Toptani at one point courted it or went against it with enough care to show how strong it was). Albanians were also the main bodyguard of the Sultan and generally known for their fervent allegiance to the Sultan. The Ottoman bought Albanians by favors, and many liked those favors.
I know it hurts you, but the fact is that Albania was cut off from the Ottoman Empire unwillingly... 90 years ago people still called the Sultan 'baba'
Here you find mostly Albos with inferiority complexes due to the fact that they live in a western christian country and theirs is known as muslim. They havnt met any and try to link back to history with everything, creating animosity that is nonexistent.
And its not a matter of liking and disliking Turks, its a matter of accepting reality which has been so eschewed by the communists. I mean the pelasgo-Illyrian crap and other things as well...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2008 21:22:41 GMT -5
Melty..change your name to Ali Baba...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 21:34:55 GMT -5
Mehmet Depsizoglu Avlonyali Pasha...
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 21:57:11 GMT -5
You can thank xhaxhi Enveri for that... Even as late as 60-70 years most Albanians were actually quite favorable to the Ottoman Empire. Do you that at one point the pro-Ottoman/Turkish party of Haxhi Qemal was strong enough that different Albanians tried to court it for support for a while (both Zog and Toptani at one point courted it or went against it with enough care to show how strong it was). Albanians were also the main bodyguard of the Sultan and generally known for their fervent allegiance to the Sultan. The Ottoman bought Albanians by favors, and many liked those favors. I know it hurts you, but the fact is that Albania was cut off from the Ottoman Empire unwillingly... 90 years ago people still called the Sultan 'baba' Here you find mostly Albos with inferiority complexes due to the fact that they live in a western christian country and theirs is known as muslim. They havnt met any and try to link back to history with everything, creating animosity that is nonexistent. And its not a matter of liking and disliking Turks, its a matter of accepting reality which has been so eschewed by the communists. I mean the pelasgo-Illyrian crap and other things as well... what are you saying you confused, dellusional prick that Albanians are not Illyrian but Turks??? Go f**k yourself and your Turkish boyfriends sideways, I've had enough of your verbal diarrhea. Clearly xhaxhi Enveri f**ked people like you over, that's too bad, Communism spread everywhere, at least xhaxhi Enveri did the best he could under the circumstances not to mention 90% of the population got educated and before everyone had been illiterate. how do you know if Albanians wanted independence or not?? you act like you were there yourself sucking the Sultan's dick. ps: i'm leaving this forum, but are all the other Albanians in here dead??? Or are Greeks right and we should be called TurkAlbanians, because I don't see anyone else objecting?? And as an fyi, I know I've been accused of not being Albanian, but what about Toskaliku? He is very anti-Albanian and too pro Turkish, I don't think Toskali is Albanian at all, I think he is here to spread propaganda that the enemies will enjoy while they laugh to themselves and say "we were right all along, they are TURKOSPORI after all" is that what you want to hear...TurkAli?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 21:59:17 GMT -5
I didnt mean Illyrian, I meant Pelasgo-Illyrian... they are two very different things... and dont let the door hit you on the way out...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 22:26:49 GMT -5
There are archives full of correspondences from this period and in particular those which detail the particular political views of the leaders of the rilindja. In fact, the very foundation for the movement taken up by men like Cerciz was detailed in the 'Shqipëria ç'ka qenë, ç'është e çdo të bëhetë." Which, as I stated before, promoted Albanians to take up arms against the Empire in order to achieve Autonomy, but not full on independence, which Sami makes clear. The very first thing the league of Prizren reaffirmed was that, although they were gathering in an ethnic awareness move, they were still loyal to the Ottoman Empire and still beholden to the rule of Sharia law.
Its not hard to get this kind of info, you only have to look at the documents to see what they were looking for. As I stated, for much of the population of Albanian populated lands, independence was anathema and only to be sought after when things got at their worst, as they did in 1912, when the Ottoman Empire finally retreated from Europe once and for all.
Thats why the declaration of independence never happened until then...
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 23, 2008 2:11:27 GMT -5
The declaration of independence never happened until then because of 1 issue.
1st Issue: Nobody helped us do shit unlike the orthodox slavs who were basically handed their independence by Russia on a silver platter. This is the reason Serbs are still suckling on the teat of Russian power today.
Russians defeated the Ottomans in the Russo-Turkish war of 1878 in which Serbia, Romania, Montenegro, and Bulgaria got their independence.
Not like we didn't try revolting Melty, 1) 1444 Skanderbeg, need I say more? 2) Leke Dukagjini 3) 1501 Evacuation of Durres 4) 1785 Bushatis ruled Shkoder as a semi-independent city-state. 5) 1810-20's Ali Pasha our favorite dictator of Janina.
So like i said, we and the macedonians weren't helped so we were the last to get our independence. It wasn't the Albanians lack of spirit or fight, when we had to defend our own cities we did so valiantly.
"The Treaty of San Stefano triggered profound anxiety among the Albanians meanwhile, and it spurred their leaders to organize a defense of the lands they inhabited."
We knew we were alone and outnumbered and we couldn't take the Turks by ourselves, but we needed to defend our rights as Albanians, thats why the League of Prizen was created, to unite the Albanian lands and defend our territory. Its not like Russia was gonna help us.
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 23, 2008 2:16:36 GMT -5
Furthermore, as soon as we saw that there was no reasoning with the Turks, it was full on revolt again. They had to take Ulqin by force from us. Not to mention the Highlander Uprising of 1911.
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 23, 2008 2:28:48 GMT -5
P/S
Turks fucked us over, in the end we had to fend for ourselves as usual. Can't count on nobody but us.
Never trust a Turk or turn your back to him.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 23, 2008 2:41:33 GMT -5
Your reasons dont really add up, as I said, considering how heavily recruited Albs were, a united revolt would have hampered any chance for crushing it. The Ulqin event was the straw that broke the camels back, I agree, but up until then nobody had envisioned any serious separatist movement nor did anyone speak of a full-fledged nation.
The main reason was that the beys and pashas were openly hostile any move which would hamper their privilages that they enjoyed from the Ottoman Empire, such as payoffs... it was a case of corruption for the higher classes and religious conservatism for the mass of peasants. Mind you only a few years after independent had occurred that a counter independence movement occurred which took an effort to crush.
You should look into the book 'Crescent and Eagle', its a very good book on this whole issue. There was another Albanian professor who posted a few articles a while back on this topic, I forgot his name. Both did something that most Albanian scholars never do: look into non-Albanian language sources, for instance correspondences that occurred in Turkish.
And the Albania of Scanderbeg and of the 19th-20th century were very different.
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 23, 2008 3:09:53 GMT -5
>Your reasons dont really add up
Actually they do. How come Macedonia, a region that was mostly ethnic Bulgar did not revolt and gain independence? Cause the Russians never made it that far.
You act as if Albs and Turks were best friends. Maybe in your mind they are. I certainly proved that we weren't based on our many revolts. And in the end the Turks fucked us over and even sent troops to quell the Alb rebellion.
My opinion still stands. Turks = Scum.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 23, 2008 9:54:04 GMT -5
Albanian Greek agreement on the creation of two military cemeteries in Albania for the Greek soldiers, heroes of the battles for resistance against Italian invaders in 1940-1941 Statement : Dora Bakojiannis (Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs) We express our satisfaction to the Albanian government and the Albanian population for the collaboration and their comprehension, that leads to favourable end this long-lasting problem between Albania and Greece. Is thus regulated a subject particular humanitarian and sentimental importance for the all Greek population, for which the historical memory of season remains live. A season-symbol for our diachronic fights for freedom.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 23, 2008 12:35:08 GMT -5
The pic you posted isnt it Karta. I was wondering what the point of this topic was since this was done years ago... of course Albanian politicians were going to do it, they sold their asses out for everything. Its up to the people of Kelcyre to deal with this crap... Lets hope Shpata's village or some passerby will...
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Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
Posts: 463
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Post by Mimi on Nov 23, 2008 17:48:27 GMT -5
what the heck is toskaliku on about? your pro Turkey has gone to far now, if albanians heard you say this they would pull their hair out. albanians were and always will be anti Ottaman. so i am with Proleteriat one this one.
Predictions of the kind you make are not very scientific, if not then this...you cannot know that because it is impossible to falisfy that hypothesis, that if other would not have fought then the albanians wouldn't have either, its not correct.
you are not correct, since we have had a couple of so called "Leagues" that directly or indirectly lobbied for the albanian cause, but you are right on the part that for instance, the first Prizren league did not aspire to create an independent Albania but some kind of autonomy for albanians.
yet you have to be aware of the fact that Albania did declare independence in 1912 so apperently there were people that wanted independence. In the three years it survived, the League of Prizren effectively made the Great Powers aware of the Albanian people and their national interests. Montenegro and Greece received much less Albanian-populated territory than they would have won without the league's resistance.
The rise of Albanian nationalism first sparked with the Battle of Deçiq on April 6, 1911, which was located in the town of Tuzi, Malësi e Madhe. The battle was fought between the Catholic Malësor Albanians led by Ded Gjo Luli, against the forces of the Ottoman Empire led by Turgut Pasha. The long and bloody battle was victorious toward the Albanians. During the battle, the Albanian Flag was raised for the first time since Gjergj Kastrioti in 1443. As a result to the victory of this battle, the Albanians found a sense of confidence and nationalism that led to other events toward Independence, which eventually came about on November 28, 1912
The battle was fought between the Catholic Malësor Albanians led by Ded Gjo Luli, against the forces of the Ottoman Empire led by Turgut Pasha." If we didn't want independence than why fight at all?
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