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Post by proleteriat on Oct 25, 2008 20:22:04 GMT -5
^^ To you (directed to proletariat) They also came as migrants, merchants and shopowners. Numerous communities in the Korca area of Albania had economic ties to I Salonica and Monastir, connections that were broken in the aftermath of 1912. There is a famous song from Korca, "Ne moshen e dashurise"("In the age of love") in the song the man laments his leaving his city of origin(Korca) and his girlfriend (Tana) for ("far away") Salonica. That this was a common move is illustrated by the fact that the father of Mehmet Ali of Egypt made the same migration from the Korca area to Kavala. He too was a merchant Believe it or not, the city was quite an important center for the Ottoman empire and drew in numerous people from various parts of Rumelia. Muslim Tosks in particular, being more assimilated in the Ottoman sphere, became active merchantmen in Salonica, Egypt and Istanbul, among other places such as Romania and Italy. yes this song ;D I don't know why this was directed to me, but you and everyone here don't get, blood does not equal identity. somewhere so small as the balkans of course there is mixed, but people have to eventually get assimilated into one culture or other
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Post by meltdown711 on Oct 25, 2008 20:23:08 GMT -5
It doesnt look like many of these people left, most seem to have settled. There was a Bektashi Albanian community in Salonica all the way until the 1970's when the repression of the community finally lead to its extinction.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 25, 2008 20:52:27 GMT -5
ok. I'll find the comment of the book about the connection of Albanians and Thessaloniki and will post it. You make me go and read again the book to find the right pages..
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 26, 2008 5:48:32 GMT -5
I did not one time.
Hellenized means here accepting the Greek language and being orthodox Christ. Something like national or ethnic consciousness as we have it today didnt exist back then, I think you are forgetting that in all your theories. Thats also the reason why Bulgarians could be hellenized very well. And yes historians write it happened, dna tests proved it as well. 10% of al Macedonians is very much. Because leandros for example is a Macedonian as well, becase he was born and raised there but he is not Macedonian in origin. If you remove all these Greeks with Asia Minor origins...just a few Greeks remain that are also originally Macedonian. 10% is then a very high number, since it will most probably be the dna of the ntopioi Makedones.o among the ntopioi Makedones like you the Slav rate will be at about 20-30% I guess.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 5:53:59 GMT -5
Rexy.. special for you.. (unfortunately in Greek): www.makthes.gr/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=27045....Ç ÌÁÑÔÕÑÉÁ ÔÏÕ ×ÁÓÁÍ ÔÁÎÉÍ Óýìöùíá ìå ôçí ðáñÜäïóç ï åõãåíéêüò, óþöñùí, øý÷ñáéìïò êáé áîéïðñåðÞò ôïýñêïò áñ÷éóôñÜôçãïò ×áóÜí Ôáîßí ðáóÜò, üôáí áðïöÜóéóå íá ðáñáäþóåé ôç Èåóóáëïíßêç óôïõò ¸ëëçíåò, äÞëùóå: “Áðü áõôïýò ôçí ðÞñáìå êáé óʼ áõôïýò èá ôçí ðáñáäþóïõìå”. Óôá áðïìíçìïíåýìáôÜ ôïõ ï ðåöùôéóìÝíïò ôïýñêïò óôñáôçãüò, ðïõ Ý÷åé óõíäÝóåé ôï üíïìÜ ôïõ ìå ôç Nåüôåñç Éóôïñßá ôçò Èåóóáëïíßêçò, ãñÜöåé ãéá ôéò éóôïñéêÝò åêåßíåò þñåò ôçò ðáñÜäïóçò ôçò ðüëçò: ..... To translate to you: Hasan Taksin Pasa was the leader of the Ottoman Thessaloniki. When he was pushed to surrender the city to the Greek army by Greeks and to the Bulgarian army by Bulgarians he said " We surrender to Greeks. Afterall we got the city from them we gonna give it back to them".Taksin Pasa says it all....
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 26, 2008 5:57:28 GMT -5
If you remove all these Greeks with Asia Minor origins...just a few Greeks remain that are also originally Macedonian. 10% is then a very high number, since it will most probably be the dna of the ntopioi Makedones.o among the ntopioi Makedones like you the Slav rate will be at about 20-30% I guess. Utter rubbish.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 5:59:03 GMT -5
Kastorian what you do is called "guessing"... Guessing is the evil of our forums Its like me saying... since Greeks in Asia Minor were between Turks.... 30-40% of them are Turks. Since Pontians were in Black Sea region.... 30-40% are not Pontians. Since Jews were in juge numbers in Germany before WW2... 30-40% of Germans are Jews. As you understand with guessing you cannot have results. Especially when I bring some proofs that despite the fact of many people in the same area... hostility between them and thier commounities was all over.... and that was the reason of closed commounities.
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 26, 2008 7:35:25 GMT -5
Its guessing based on facts. If lets say every second macedonian today is originally from Asia Minor the 10% become 20% among the original Macedonians. Thats no guessing...and you dont bring facts...its rather fairy tales like.
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 26, 2008 7:41:56 GMT -5
and yes of course the anatolian peoples rate among asia Minor Greeks will be similarly high.
I dont think we should base our demand on the macedonian heritage on genetical datas. This would be utopian and we would ridicule ourselves.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 9:14:57 GMT -5
Kastorianos "Its guessing based on facts. If lets say every second macedonian today is originally from Asia Minor the 10% become 20% among the original Macedonians. Thats no guessing...and you dont bring facts...its rather fairy tales like." --------------------------------------------------- Based on facts?? What facts? By saying they were all together in the same region hence they had intermarriages is not a fact. Nothing prooves that. On the other when I say there is hostility until today to every "Kseno" in the village is a fact that can be prooven right now. "I dont think we should base our demand on the macedonian heritage on genetical datas. This would be utopian and we would ridicule ourselves." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I dont have reasons to disagree with you on that. I was always said in these forums that Greek is whoever feels Greeks. Its not about blood. But on the other side I see very often as an excuse for Fyroms stupidity the "fact" that Macedonia was a passage of tribes and nations and thats why... it must have been an open society to all kind of people and bla bla bla. I just want to see how "open" Macedonians were to all these different tirbes. There is NOT EVEN on clue that says Macedonians ACCEPTED them. In addition, I say today in some isolated villages, the old people again being hostile to all tribes including Greeks from other areas. Thats not a fairy tale... thats real life. I have to see where that "openemind" of Macedonian citizens stems from for the posters so as to use it later as an excuse. I'm open mind and I expect some evidence how the Macedonians "embraced" tous ksenous. I havent any yet.... just bla bla bla. Is there somebody out there, Buglarian or Albanian or Turk to tell me a story.. at least ONE... from a person or a family from the old times that he knows who were Albanians or Bulgarians or Turks and now they live in a real Macedonian village and had any kind of intermarriage with the locals? I'm open.... but do you know any?? Since everybody used that excuse so much.... there must be plenty of examples in everyone's family.. .. just waiting...
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 9:29:13 GMT -5
PS. Kastoriane, you're from Kastoria, Villages with Macedonians, refuggees, Buglarians were there too. Why dont you tell us a story of how open mind and open to intermarriages were the Macedonians with the people of other villages? I would love to hear the differences of W.Macedonia with the E.Macedonia..
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 26, 2008 13:11:40 GMT -5
We have indeed many Bulgarians/makedonska speakers. My grandmother was from a native Greek makedonian family, my grandfather from Asia Minor. You are right on what you describe...the native people wanted to stay among themselves, her brothers for example were not very much for this marriage between them both....not to speak about the bulgarians. But that doesnt mean that the macedonian side of my family is now pure macedonian since ancient times. They could be very well also descendants of Bulgarians or Serbs...mixed with Greeks. And I say that despite the fact that they didnt speak or understand a word of bulgarian.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 26, 2008 13:23:18 GMT -5
the other factor for that conservatism may be the national awakening of Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs. That colliding platforms teached hatred to one another. Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs that considered each other very close since they had the same religion at once had to "hate" each other because of what they were thought at school.
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Post by proleteriat on Oct 26, 2008 13:53:05 GMT -5
Kastorianos...chances are you also have some Albanian in you since there have been plenty of migrations from Korca/Erseke/Kolonje in Selanika and other places in Makedonia...no one in the balkans is pure, of course there are mixed. Unless you're proposing some kind of balkan federation you have to defend racial "purity" even if it's a lie otherwise just become an American Ioan Greeks and Serbs have never hated each other because they have had the same enemy for quite some time to bring them together, nothing to do with Orthodoxy, Bulgarians is a different thing because you border Greece
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 26, 2008 14:06:27 GMT -5
proletariat I meant that the national agendas of Bulgarians collided with Greek and Serbian, because ones failure meant the others sucsess
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 26, 2008 14:32:46 GMT -5
Thats right. My aunts husband's mothers name was "Toskos". They made family researches...and...surprise surprise.....his mothers family was albanian in origin. And his mother didnt know anything of it, she thought she is 100% Greek. Another example how assimilations can take place, also in Macedonia, thanks.
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Post by meltdown711 on Oct 26, 2008 14:37:59 GMT -5
What do you mean? I always agreed that blood doesnt equate identity... I never said the contrary, however I disagreed on the similarity part.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 26, 2008 18:44:24 GMT -5
Hellenized means here accepting the Greek language and being orthodox Christ. Something like national or ethnic consciousness as we have it today didnt exist back then, I think you are forgetting that in all your theories. Thats also the reason why Bulgarians could be hellenized very well.
Are you serious Kastor or are they just YOUR theories ? .
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 27, 2008 2:59:44 GMT -5
I always say the truth...independendly from if you like it or not.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 27, 2008 3:54:08 GMT -5
I don't understand why some km north of Thessaly two villages with small distance between them speak different language. I mean that the fact that we could find slavic villages among Greek ones in Macedonia shows that the different linguistic-ethnic groups kept their identity,I suppose due to their isolationism. I know it from my area,you know Arvanites... Even though Arvanites were never viewed as distinct ethnic group but as a lower class the intermarriages were not frequent.
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