Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Oct 4, 2009 16:40:14 GMT -5
actually in your own words: hocas interpretations.
you see every person makes his/her own interpretation, thats why every muslim must read the kuran.
and if you google divrice and sexual satisfaction you will find your answer.
Look, use your mind, people living 100s of years ago interpretations of the kuran are outdated, people should always follow modern thinking in islam. My mind is strong enough to make my own interpretation, islam is a very personal religion, you do not need someone to interpret it for you unless there is very close meanings and then u try to find each meaning and understand the context it is in...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 4, 2009 18:13:00 GMT -5
There is no such thing as modern thinking Islam, Christianity or any faith by virtue of the fact that these faiths were created before the modern times. The Kuran was written by men 1300 years ago.
Your mind makes the interpretation that best suits your own lifestyle. That is it. You want to have your sex and party while also claiming to be a Muslim.
Unless you can speak fluent medieval Arabic in order to properly understand the vocabulary and structure of the Quran, then you cannot claim to properly interpret it. Just as a Christian cannot properly interpret the Bible without knowing Hebrew for the old one and Greek for the later one. The translation you read is by itself already interpreted by virtue of being a translation.
A hocas interpretation is important to Muslims because they are the men trained their life in it. Just like if you want to understand a particular ancient writer, you go to someone who has studied him sufficiently.
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Bozur
Amicus
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Post by Bozur on Oct 4, 2009 22:21:23 GMT -5
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 5, 2009 12:09:50 GMT -5
Yes, Muslim women by law have more rights than Christian ones. They have a right to property, which Christians do not. Men have to give a dowry for marrying a women. In Christianity, women have to give a dowry to men. All the gold collected at a Muslims wedding goes to the bride, not the groom. Women have a right to divorce, which is not allowed in Christianity. And looking at Afganistan or Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. They have a different culture that is separate from religion. A Muslim Turk, Arab, Indonesian is culturally different from each other, yet, they are all Muslim.
Please read the Koran before jumping to conclusions. You could learn a lot.
Actually Kapikulu, there are excellent translations of the Koran in English. If a person does not know Arabic, they can learn a lot by reading the translation - as these are written by scholars themselves. And you don't need to read Arabic to learn basic tenats of faith.
The Majority of the world's Muslims are not Arab, they are Indonesian, therefore, they would read the translations of the Koran in their own languages, not in Arabic.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 5, 2009 13:21:58 GMT -5
Modern Arab culture IS Islam. Arab identity is intertwined with the faith and in fact Islam itself is a byproduct of Arab culture.
PS: I am speaking as an atheist, so for me religion is created by man and society not by any paranormal figure.
Indonesian Islamic jurists speak Arabic and so can the religious leaders of the country. Same with the Imams of Iran.
With the exception of central Asian Turks, where Islam did not pierce the culture as extensively as it did in other places, the rest of these people have strict laws for controlling women. In fact, a recent theorist on Meditteranean culture actually argued that repression of women in the Med came as a result of the Islamic expansion in the 8th century. Particularly as the places where most control occurred were areas like southern Italy. The scholar is Treggiari.
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 5, 2009 14:18:15 GMT -5
I disagree. Arab culture is not Islam. Islam is given to all races. Therefore, Arab cannot equal Islam. Arabs have their own culture - tribal culture, which is totally different from Turks or other Muslims. Even the most liberal Arab totally segregates the sexes. It is b/c as you know, before Mohammad came, they have 10 plus wives, killed female newborns, their women, and have the whole belly dancing culture where they lust after women, that is why God sent their nation a prophet b/c they were so bad. The Arabs nowadays went extreme - esp. Saudi ARabia - their form of Islam is not conventional Islam by the way. They are Wahabis - of the Bin Laden type. I read some interesting accounts of Ibn Battuta, an Arab traveling Seljuk Empire's lands. He described Turks as religious, but that they did not cover their heads. He was so surpised. Also, he described Turkish women making the decisions for the cities and holding a lot of power - again he was surpised b/c Arab culture does not allow that. What I am saying is that every nation has a different culture - irrespective of their religion. Sure of course religious leaders in Indonesia, Iran, etc. learn Arabic, but that does not mean that an ordinary person cannot read or understand the translation as much as they can in their native tongue. Christians repressed women much more than Muslims. They didn't have property rights, they had no rights to divorce. The only reason why now the Western countries have women's rights is b/c they separated themselves from their religion. Ironically though, women are seen as objects in Western culture - which also represses them as well. It should be somewhere inbetween
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 5, 2009 15:25:30 GMT -5
Arabs created Islam. The Quran was written by Arabs. Therefore it has their culture in it.
Other people received Islam from Arabs. So they can have a more bastardized version of the faith as compared to those who created it.
The average person does not have the skill to interpret it.
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 5, 2009 16:28:23 GMT -5
Arabs did not create Islam. Muslims believe that God gave prophets to many different people like Jesus, Moses, etc. The original message was lost, and Mohammed was given the last word of God. What you read in the Koran is not a cultural thing. It's religious and its for all humankind.
You are speaking from an atheistic point of view only.
I think Arabs have a more bastardized version of Islam than other non -Arab Muslims actually.
You can take classes and learn the philosophy behind the religion not knowing Arabic. You can learn prayers - duas and their meaning in your native language. You can even read the Tesfirs in your native language and why certain things are said in the Koran - and the meaning behind them to gain a better understanding of the Koran.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 5, 2009 17:14:52 GMT -5
Im arguing from a rational perspective. All literature is culture. That Islam is a byproduct of Arab can be seen in various ways if a person studies pre-Islamic Arabian world. Or the Semitic middle eastern world. I know my views and yours are incompatible. However, I can say that there is anthropology behind mine.
Yet again, much like with desire yearning, you suit your interpretation to fit your own habits. There is no basis behind what you are saying besides the fact that u dislike the oppression witnessed by Muslim women in the Arab world. You dont like it yet you wish to remain "Muslim" by these "soft" or "modern" interpretations. That is it. Pretty much anywhere in the Muslim world, even Turkey (at least in villages), there occurs mistreatment of women based on perceived Islamic standards.
At the time of the Selcuks, the Turkic peoples had only recently accepted Islam and thus had not taken in its culture as strongly yet.
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 6, 2009 4:43:10 GMT -5
meh....muslims Can someone help them progress pls ? They are still in the stone age running around in sheets for God's sakes. Well, except for Turkey maybe..Thank God for that...
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Post by tito on Oct 6, 2009 9:46:43 GMT -5
Here is a good documentary where Yusuf Islam explains why he converted:
As for the question "Why Would a Greek Cypriot Convert to Islam?"
Because it is an act of patriotism by which the Greek Cypriots are given a chance to survive the threat of total extinction that their current level of fertility rate has created.
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Post by L0gjICK on Oct 6, 2009 10:06:30 GMT -5
meh....muslims Can someone help them progress pls ? They are still in the stone age running around in sheets for God's sakes. Well, except for Turkey maybe..Thank God for that... Lack of education for the mass. When the mass believes that a "book" is the answer to everything in life, you're bound to come across these piss poor societies. Secularism is the way to go. Turkey figured this much out.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 6, 2009 11:18:30 GMT -5
I have watched that video and I see a broken and insecure man (said something after converting like "I always choose the safe way" as a reason to stop singing being afraid that other Muslims will denounce him for it -- even picked the Arab name Jussuff cause it was suggested from new 'mentors' ) that brushed death at least twice and as a result became religious and chose to become Muslim.
PS: His has no patriotism as I do not see him visiting Cyprus every summer but Dubai. Even the support he gave for Bosnian Muslims I see as his way of getting 'back' at Greeks (who supported Serbs). Also planet is way overpopulated and reproduction has to decrease (whether voluntarily at this point or not -- perhaps in future).
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Post by tito on Oct 6, 2009 11:38:25 GMT -5
PS: His has no patriotism..Also planet is way overpopulated and reproduction has to decrease (whether voluntarily.. Population "growth" in Serbia 1998-20081998: -23046 1999: -29222 2000: -30278 2001: -20573 2002: -24684 2003: -24921 2004: -26134 2005: -34591 2006: -31887 2007: -34703 2008: -33628 webrzs.statserb.sr.gov.yu/axd/en/drugastrana.php?Sifra=0013&izbor=odel&tab=1To freely choose biological extinction for ones nation can hardly be categorized as something patriotic. the support he gave for Bosnian Muslims He also made a CD with Dino Merlin:
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 6, 2009 11:46:59 GMT -5
meh....muslims Can someone help them progress pls ? They are still in the stone age running around in sheets for God's sakes. Well, except for Turkey maybe..Thank God for that... Lack of education for the mass. When the mass believes that a "book" is the answer to everything in life, you're bound to come across these piss poor societies. Secularism is the way to go. Turkey figured this much out. yeah....i hear you on that. Secularism is the way to go...however even in most " christian " countries like Poland and Greece. We still dont act like these freakin ppl. They are out of control...Ppl like Sarkozy putting these muslimoids in check. If they cant follow EU rules...then get the hell out of here. In the USA they are completely stupid. Some muslim lady wanted to wear a full faced burqa during her drivers license picture ! Dumb broad ended up suing the state of florida and won ! If you wonder why america is going down the pits...its because of its catering to every " minority " group. This was years back but still pisses me off to this day when I think about it.
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 6, 2009 11:48:53 GMT -5
I have watched that video and I see a broken and insecure man (said something after converting like "I always choose the safe way" as a reason to stop singing being afraid that other Muslims will denounce him for it -- even picked the Arab name Jussuff cause it was suggested from new 'mentors' ) that brushed death at least twice and as a result became religious and chose to become Muslim. PS: His has no patriotism as I do not see him visiting Cyprus every summer but Dubai. Even the support he gave for Bosnian Muslims I see as his way of getting 'back' at Greeks (who supported Serbs). Also planet is way overpopulated and reproduction has to decrease (whether voluntarily at this point or not -- perhaps in future). lets not choke on a tablespoon of water...Yousuf is a dumbass.....simple
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Post by L0gjICK on Oct 6, 2009 11:58:03 GMT -5
Lack of education for the mass. When the mass believes that a "book" is the answer to everything in life, you're bound to come across these piss poor societies. Secularism is the way to go. Turkey figured this much out. yeah....i hear you on that. Secularism is the way to go...however even in most " christian " countries like Poland and Greece. We still dont act like these freakin ppl. They are out of control...Ppl like Sarkozy putting these muslimoids in check. If they cant follow EU rules...then get the hell out of here. In the USA they are completely stupid. Some muslim lady wanted to wear a full faced burqa during her drivers license picture ! Dumb broad ended up suing the state of florida and won ! If you wonder why america is going down the pits...its because of its catering to every " minority " group. This was years back but still pisses me off to this day when I think about it. Difference is Greece and Poland aren't dumb enough to base all their laws off the "Old Testament" for example. The same is not true with these countries that based their government off of Sharia Law. As a "Muslim" (and I use the term "Muslim" in a very loose way) I believe Islam should be kept personal and separate from the state. As soon as the line is crossed between State and Religion (whether it be any religion) is when you have countries like Saudi Arabia springing up. The catering of minorities is done due to the insecurities these Western Countries face because of their past actions. As soon as they say no, people will reference slavery, civil rights movements in the 60's and so forth.
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 6, 2009 17:34:39 GMT -5
Toskali, I understand your point that since Mohammed was an Arab, that you think Arab culture fused with Islam. I can see the connection, however, it is not exactly the case. Islam was flourishing and was not like the Afganistan or the Saudi Arabia of today. Islam after the fall of the Ottomans went downhill. Nowadays, most Arab countries are either ruled by dictators or USA puppets, and only care about the oil money going to their countries. Just b/c I am against oppression of women in Saudi Arabia does not mean I am intrepreting Islam liberally. My point is that their interpretation has their own Arab cultural elements - like women in Saudi Arabia being unable to drive, and covering their faces with only their eyes showing. None of these are indicated in any Islamic laws.
Turks became Muslims much before the Seljuks time.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Oct 15, 2009 14:32:39 GMT -5
Again, it seems you don't get the point. In Islam the first sentence in the kuran states - READ. lol
Unless u read u don't learn, it doesn't say: 'ask a hoca' and you don't need to know fluent arabic, as the translations are readily available in all diff languages. In fact u have a number of different translations at hand... why should i ask a hoca?
Look its like this a very very simple way of explaining for you:
there is a passage in the kuran which states:
They come from the sky, smokeless fire.
How can this be translated 200 years ago? - as lightening maybe? and today? - as lazer beams maybe...
depends on the individual and way of thinking, Islam actually helps you open your mind...
Also Islam has arabic cultural influences in ARABIC speaking countries. Islam in itself doesn't even recognise different cultures, it just states us as Muslim ...
By the way why does this matter?
Also in Islam we respect women, men and animals also slaves are banned. Telling me this is a backward religion, in comparison with what?
Can i just ask, what normal person would even try to compare saudie arabian wahhabism, to Islam as stated in the Kuran? really thats like a joke man!!
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 15, 2009 15:14:35 GMT -5
You have yet to give me the passage.
PS: From an athropological and historical point of view, not faith based BS, Islam IS a byproduct of Arab culture. Whether you accept this or not. Now, if we are to discuss via faith... then yea, but faith is not science nor logic nor history.
Any book will open your mind. I can guarantee, however, that I will be far more enlightened by some modern scientific based book than any Quran written 1300 years ago by some Arabs in the Caliphate.
Doesnt have to. The men who wrote it and the language that wrote it defined the culture subconsciously.
Explains a lot. I guess that is why women in Islam receive so much respect right? What does the scarf over the head say? I can find a million passages that demean women. Not just in the Quran but in the bible also:
Quran: "And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women,"
So... in case you cannot find a second man, you need two women? Why is that?
"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them "
What are "lewd women"? Thats right, no sexual freedom for women in these books. Very progressive and modern...
Wahabism is based off of the reading of the Quran, not upon BS. Wahab was an Arab Islamic scholar. He read the Quran in the original Arabic and made the interpretations. Thus the possibility for Wahabism in the Quran is present...
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