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Post by serban on Oct 7, 2008 7:38:53 GMT -5
Hello there to all Greeks and non-Greeks on this forum. I have a few questions for specialists in Byzantine history: 1. Back in the 10-14 centuries did Byzantine Greeks consider the Vlachs as barbarian or they viewed them like they viewed their ancestors the Romans (that is, as non-barbarian) 2. Did the Byzantine Greeks consieder the Bulgarians as barbarian (in the same time period)? Did they ever during the Middle Ages consider the Bulgarians as non-barbarian? I am really really interested in finding answers to this questions. I would very much appreciate if you have the knowledge for the answers. Thanks
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 7, 2008 8:49:59 GMT -5
I don't think that Byzantines ever viewed Bulgarians as non-barbarians. This term,"varvaros",was used for all non-greek speakers...of course Romans weren't excluded from the rule... Romans didn't consider Greeks as barbarians...but Greeks considered them as such. Just make a search for the word "barbarian(s)" in Annas Comnenis' "Alexias" to see how broadly this term was used. www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad00.html
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2008 9:32:53 GMT -5
That word, "barbarian" was addressed to all who were non-greek speaking. Greek used to call Traus/Thracians "barbaros", just because they were non-greek speaking ppl. Wonder how Thracians called Greek ppl, since they couldn't speak traus language.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 7, 2008 9:42:28 GMT -5
That word, "barbarian" was addressed to all who were non-greek speaking. Greek used to call Traus/Thracians "barbaros", just because they were non-greek speaking ppl. Whats this "traus"...? Where is it written? Something like Levi's Strauss? Thrax is the more accurate singular form of what Anglosaxons call Thracian and Thrakes the plural one... Wonder how Thracians called Greek ppl, since they couldn't speak traus language. Didn't Thracians speak Balgarski?? ;D
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Post by tsompanos on Oct 7, 2008 9:45:30 GMT -5
yeah indeed the thracians spoke bulgarian and had names like Svet and Boris
;D
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Post by rusebg on Oct 7, 2008 10:26:48 GMT -5
Ignore Rhezus. He talks crap all the time. And Tsobanos, there is no such name as Svet. Can be Svetoslav, Stvetlomir, Svetozar, etc, but not only Svet.
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Post by tsompanos on Oct 7, 2008 10:34:51 GMT -5
ok but Boris is Bulgarian right? and its a really old name if im not wrong
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Post by rusebg on Oct 7, 2008 10:59:06 GMT -5
Spot on.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 7, 2008 11:20:01 GMT -5
every 5th fyromanian is named Boris
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 7, 2008 11:35:10 GMT -5
every 5th fyromanian is named Boris So its ancient macedonian...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 7, 2008 11:41:17 GMT -5
no ...they are left over Bulgarians ....
btw ...when is Bulgaria gonna come and pick em up ..its been a while bring lots of buses...double decker's ;D .
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2008 11:59:25 GMT -5
What anglosaxons call it is not important, because these ppl called themselves so - Traus. But it's not easy when you don't know..
P.S. Ruse, you steppe nomad.. Speak for yourself and stop talking bulls about others!
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Post by serban on Oct 7, 2008 12:31:16 GMT -5
I didn't know that Greeks called even the Romans barbarians. Are you sure this is also true for Byzantine Greeks? I am reading a chapter from a book called The History of Romanians where it is written that in one of the Byzantine themas (themata?) there were three categories of population in 1072-1074 in that thema: 'Romans' (this means Greeks), Pechenegs and half-barbarians (mixobarbaroi). It says there that all non-Greek citizens of the Byzantine Empire were called mixobarbaroi by the Greeks. This is a information from the chronicle of Michail Attaliates. It says that the half-barbarians were also called Sciths and local people (tous eghorious-I hope I transcribed it right) and that the Pechenegs were also called Schits. I know it doesn't make much sense but that's how it is written. Were Bulgarians ever called Schits by the Byzantines? Also does 'tous eghorious' really mean local people?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2008 13:02:53 GMT -5
Greeks have that problem.. First, how can they call themselves "Romans", when they actually were greek?!.. At same time they pretend to be Macedonians and proud of being being Hellenes! All who could speak greek (hellenistic) were "greek" according to them. Southern Thracians were one other example.
In fact greek could be more "mixobarbaroi", if we compaire them with any other European nation. So, why shall we consider their words seriously, when we see facts different from the way they portayed things.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 7, 2008 13:04:35 GMT -5
Well yes,the truth is that the phrase "pas mi Hellen varvaros"(every non-Greek is barbarian) included Romans too. Byzantine Greeks,(Romaioi) called the original Romans barbarians since they did not speak Greek and according to the Greek standards were not civilized. Pope Nicholas I wrote to Emperor Michael III (Epistola 86, y. 865, PL 119, 926): "You ceased to be called 'Emperor of the Romans', since the Romans whom you claim to be Emperor of, are in fact according to you barbarians.".
I'm pretty sure that Bulgarians were refered as Skythes by byzantine scolars-historians,but I'm sorry i cannot remember who did it.
Yes,"eghorioi"(in nominative this suffix) means locals.
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Post by tsompanos on Oct 7, 2008 13:14:12 GMT -5
Greeks have that problem.. First, how can they call themselves "Romans", when they actually were greek?!.. At same time they pretend to be Macedonians and proud of being being Hellenes! All who could speak greek (hellenistic) were "greek" according to them. Southern Thracians were one other example. In fact greek could be more "mixobarbaroi", if we compaire them with any other European nation. So, why shall we consider their words seriously, when we see facts different from the way they portayed things. just by saying anceint macedonians where not hellenes really shows your lack of knowledge and please show me somewhere where bulgarians ever mention thracians or beeing thracians during medieval times.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 7, 2008 13:16:40 GMT -5
Rhezus, you represent 0.1% of the opinion of the Bulgarian population. Those who are paid by Skopje to claim ancient Alexander bollocks. In addition, you are not even Bulgarian, so please bug off.
On many occasions. Actually, the Byzantine historians were very interested in Bulgaria before she accepted Christianity. After that this interest lessened because Bulgaria was no longer considered as a a pagan country and the Byzantines have always paid great attention to religion because that was the thing that united this multiethnnical empire. The other was the language.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2008 15:18:05 GMT -5
^^^ I represent something you cannot decide the percentage of. And I am Bulgarian.. it's just that you cannot handle other views than your own. And that's your problem, not mine?
You mix it up.. ethnic origin and state, citizenships. Your Herodotus mentioned that macedon ppl were close to thracian - non greek. It's another thing if they were hellenistic. Many other ppl were hellenistic at certain stages, but they weren't greek just because of that.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 7, 2008 15:44:04 GMT -5
Rhezus.. dont speak bs..
How can Macedonians not being a Hellenic race since ALL agree they were Dorians?! To remind you.. before any more bs comes out of your mouth.... Dorians were the Spartans.. too.
So.. use your mind for a little... do the calculations.. and stop spreading crap..
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 7, 2008 16:53:32 GMT -5
Illyro + Thraki = Macedon
mmmmm.......do me and Rhezus have to come down and burn Thebes again and have you wanna b ancient Greeks Balkanites on your knees in fear and maybe throw you some coins with Rhezus's face on em and then start worshiping him as your conquerer ...?
dor e re
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