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Post by Kassandros on Aug 8, 2008 2:24:28 GMT -5
1,5 million Greeks from Asia Minor, Konstantinople and Black sea came in Greece. For your info... Greece is 11 millions. Now.. it will be fine if you can tell us how the 1,5 is the 60% of the 11... ?
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Post by Kefalus on Aug 8, 2008 2:49:52 GMT -5
This sh!t again and again this is very boring... Children go out and play, get a life. ;D If there are 200000-300000 greeks in Albania they will have greek passports, if there are 28000 then 28000. I dont know what is the big deal. I dont know if any of you have been to South Albania and see it with your own eyes. Go there, take some pictures, make some videos and only then come here and will talk about this.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 8, 2008 5:56:56 GMT -5
Kefalus. It’s not about the numbers here BUT the whole history and legacy of the Hellenic Epirus, do they think they can surpass / try and steal the Hellenistic of Epirus whilst they genocided them both culturally and ethnically for more then 80 years. Stay on topic people. .
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 8, 2008 6:09:39 GMT -5
ALBANIA'S DEMANDS Albania as a Nation Author(s): Joseph S. Roucek Source: Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 232, A Challenge to Peacemakers, (Mar., 1944), pp. 107-109 Published by: Sage Publications, Inc. in association with the American Academy of Political and Social Science
...That Albania is unhappy over Italy's domination is evident from the continued resistance in spite of stern repression. Most tribes have never taken to Italian rule, and are especially irritated by continuous forcible requisitioning of their cattle and crops. Zog's voice has been periodically heard from exile, seeking membership in the United Nations. Nearly all Albanians, including opponents of the Zog regime, show a strong irredentist sentiment for the "lost provinces" of Kossovo and Chameria, the first held by Yugoslavia and the second by Greece. But any claims made for the site of the plain of Kossovo ("the Field of the Blackbirds") is bound to produce most violent reaction among the Serbs and the Yugoslavs, for whom the district is a sacred place. The question of Northern Epirus will be equally contested by Greece. Some 100,000 Albanians live in northwestern Greece, hopelessly intermixed with Greeks. In fact, Newman points out that "Greek claims for a frontier re- adjustment are at least as strong as the Albanian, for there are about 45,000 Greeks to the north of the boundary." Furthermore, over 100,000 Albanians are of the Orthodox faith, and many of these feel that their religious allegiance is of greater importance to them than nationalistic allegiance to their Moslem neighbors. In fact, in 1914 the inhabitants of Northern Epirus revolted when the area was given to Albania. Most of the scattered Albanian famiies in northern Greece appear to be interested only in being left alone, and the Greeks in Albania (about 50,000) are practically all bilingual. Whether they are Hellenized Albanians or semi- Albanized Greeks is a question which no man can resolve. Newman concludes: But for the intervention of the Italians, this would never have become a problem at all. Race consciousness is not strongly developed among the Albanians, whose state only so recently found a precarious independence. ... If the problem is pur- sued, however, it is capable of reasonable solution by minor modifications of the frontier and exchange of populations.6 This opinion, however, appears to underestimate the force of exaggerated tendencies of modern nationalism under the impact of World War II.
Newman, op. cit., p. 360
See Louis Adamic, My Native Land (New York: Harper, 1943), "The Cult of Kossovo," pp. 224-47; Stoyan Pribichevich, World With- out End (New York: Reynold & Hitchc**k, 1939), pp. 63-64 ff.; Bernard Newman, The New Europe (New York: Macmillan, 1943), pp. 360-65.
E. P. Stickney, Southern Albania or North- ern Epirus in European International Affairs (Stanford University: Stanford University Press, 1926) is the best study of this problem. [/i][/quote] Off course if you looked up on one of the scans, it already mentions this and this topic is about NORTHERN EPIRUS it would mention this there is a scan on Albanian’s will to defend her self, did you think we would hide it ? Nothing new.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 8, 2008 6:17:10 GMT -5
And the next years albanians declare that they are only 3%...........
Wrong. Albania still has it at 1%, its America that corrected itself once Albania was opened up and proper research methods were created. See the 3% was attained by the fact that most British estimates put the Greek number of the population are around 50,000, as the journal article put above. Then America did the math with respect to proper population growth. The Greeks grew by 2x during those period whereas Albs by 4x. Hence the number of 100,000. However I contest the 3% by the simple fact that the Albanian population growth was far far higher then the Greek one. It completely trounced the Greek growth.
And as for your book, its the biggest bulls**t yet. In actuality, there were no cities in south Albania that were Greek majority and almost all, with exception to Korca, were Muslim dominated. See the Christian population was tied to the land. It was Muslims who inhabited the cities. The Christian influx only occurred during the Communist period. The reason I stated Korca was an exeption was because Korca was rose in the post 1800's period; therefore under different cultural circumstances.
The cities of the Ottoman Empire were always Muslim dominated. Hell even Athens and Belgrade were Muslim majority. I dont know where that book got its info, but I can give you some sources to direct you better.
And for your Greek/French source. That was what the Greeks presented to the international community. It was a Greek created ethnic map which included all Christians of the region, regardless of whether they were Albanian or Greek, as Greeks. Hence the majority.
See Arxhi... what a little thinking can do to sources? Of course if you wish for a more proper source. I can start you off here: www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm
I also posted a lot of info way back in the old forum, here:
p100.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm91.showMessage?topicID=641.topic&index=136
Its actually quite the good reading since its, well, properly researched.
On another note: Its unfortunate that since Shpata and Bibleriot left, we have no had a single proper discussion on actual ethnic issues on this forum... now we are forced to deal with half-brains who religiously copy and paste everything they see on different websites.... What's wrong with my sources ? I gave reliable sources and you don't like because it doesn't agree with you. P.s have no time to try and refute garbage, hearsays and Albanian biased sources. P.s 2 the world has the right to hear the plight / fate of the Greek Epirotes, this topic or it's sources in it will be seen by many web sites soon. So it's intentions isn't to "CrAcK" Albania in half, don't think it'll happen so relax champ after all it's a forum. See it as educational OF FACTS. Here is something you and I can't stop or change, "the Northern Epirus issue still remains pending". .
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 8, 2008 7:42:29 GMT -5
Cleaned and re-opened. P.s am not allowed to edit another fellow Hellenic Moderators posts since he's violated no rules.
People stay on topic.
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 1:16:26 GMT -5
What kind of bulls**t is this? You copy and paste info from a nationalist Greek site and call the info I provide biased? Unlike you, I do personal research on this, unlike you I have traveled around the place I come from. So who are you tell me Im biased.
What I see here is a nasty little way of avoiding a proper debate since you dont know anything outside of your copy-and-paste.
Stop disregarding while I say, learn to analyse and debate what i present. I already gave you reasons why I say their BS, now you can refute them if you like with a little bit of research...
1. The first source I provided is a Vlach website with an article on a British researcher who visited the region and studied it. Its a very very legitimate site. In fact that man published a very valuable book on this issue which is a very worthy read since there are no studies like it.
2. The second like are foreign ethnographic maps, not Albanian...
Again, debate if you can, learning doesnt involve just reading endless amount of quotes, it involves thinking as well...
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 1:26:44 GMT -5
What kind of bulls**t is this? You copy and paste info from a nationalist Greek site and call the info I provide biased? Unlike you, I do personal research on this, unlike you I have traveled around the place I come from. So who are you tell me Im biased. Why do you see them as copy and pasting when there are the actual scans from books from one of the most renowned scholars or what are you referring to ? There are scans from books and links to see you know that don't you ?.
Like you are right now, and see above. Pot calling the pot black syndrome. See prior answer to you as already explained NOW stick to the debate and refute the articles and scans NO need to shift the arguments around with straw man fallacy tactics. .
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 1:37:23 GMT -5
Because as usual you take something you found on macedoniaontheweb and post it here as if it yours.
See my older post, I did refute. you disregarded what I stated as just bias though, so dont throw arguments. As I stated, the cities were not Greek since cities then were Muslim dominated. The Muslims in Epirus were almost entirely made up Albanians and even those who might have been Greek would have been entirely assimilated in the Albanian sphere. Only cities that developed later had Orthodox Christian populations.
Plus, I also brought differing ethnographic maps that counter the maps and info you pulled. The information you pulled out was not even argued by Venizelos. Even he knew he couldnt win that region via ethnic distribution since he knew Albanians were dominant, hence he argued that Greece was more "civilized" and hence deserved it. For this take a look at Eleftherios Venizelos: Trials of Statemenship by Kitromilides. Also take a look at the Paris Peace Conference documents for a show as to how Greece counted got the population record you handed. As I stated, that considers all Christians in southern Albania as Greeks. Hence cities that were almost entirely Albanian speaking, such as Korca, were somehow Greek majority. Yet my father and his grandfather come from that near by region and could never account for the supposed Greek community.
This has been argued to death by Shpata and Bibleriot, Arxhi, its basic knowledge by now.
This is a post of mine from years ago. I compiled the numbered after looking at a mixture of sources:
Look at the people who come from the Old city of Gjirokaster:
Cerciz Topulli Enver Hoxha Ismail Kadare Omer Nishani Eqerem Cabej Avni Rustemi All Muslim names... why? Because Muslims dominated it... Greeks lived in the nearby villages as farmers and the men above were the land lords. In many cases of land further south then southern Albania...
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 1:43:48 GMT -5
This is the most commonly referred to ethnic distribution map used for the period 100 years ago and its probably the most accurate: This is a similar French one:
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 2:00:36 GMT -5
Because as usual you take something you found on macedoniaontheweb and post it here as if it yours. See my older post, I did refute. you disregarded what I stated as just bias though, so dont throw arguments. As I stated, the cities were not Greek since cities then were Muslim dominated. The Muslims in Epirus were almost entirely made up Albanians and even those who might have been Greek would have been entirely assimilated in the Albanian sphere. Only cities that developed later had Orthodox Christian populations. Plus, I also brought differing ethnographic maps that counter the maps and info you pulled. The information you pulled out was not even argued by Venizelos. Even he knew he couldnt win that region via ethnic distribution since he knew Albanians were dominant, hence he argued that Greece was more "civilized" and hence deserved it. For this take a look at Eleftherios Venizelos: Trials of Statemenship by Kitromilides. Also take a look at the Paris Peace Conference documents for a show as to how Greece counted got the population record you handed. As I stated, that considers all Christians in southern Albania as Greeks. Hence cities that were almost entirely Albanian speaking, such as Korca, were somehow Greek majority. Yet my father and his grandfather come from that near by region and could never account for the supposed Greek community. This has been argued to death by Shpata and Bibleriot, Arxhi, its basic knowledge by now. This is a post of mine from years ago. I compiled the numbered after looking at a mixture of sources: All my historicaly sources are on prior posts and are accepted by world acedemia. No I do not rely on mamcedoniaontheweb but from various sources...What did you refute Melty ? That the Epirotes weren't Greek ? .
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 2:03:04 GMT -5
How thick can you be? Read my posts, its rather obvious... are you trying to play the ignorant card? I dont see how you can miss my argument. Read it...
George Henry Allen is the only real source you brought, and even then, he was doing a general book on World War, not an indepth study on the region. What sources was he looking at? What sources on this vague issue did he even have a chance to see? Kitromilides, a Greek, states that Alb speakers were the majority...
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 2:03:36 GMT -5
[quote author=meltdown711 board=hellasgreece thread=10123 post=78978 time=1218264228]This is the most commonly referred to ethnic distribution map used for the period 100 years ago and its probably the most accurate:[/quote]
I don't know about that...Be back this forum is being gay from errors.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 2:05:05 GMT -5
How thick can you be? Read my posts, its rather obvious... are you trying to play the ignorant card? I dont see how you can miss my argument. Read it... What's with the rage ? Or should I just post the facts and ignore you ?
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 2:07:41 GMT -5
Im not enraged Im bewildered...
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 2:28:18 GMT -5
^ Truth has to be told.
EDIT:
Ooops it was the wrong scan. Can't wait for this forum to be fixed....
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 2:34:07 GMT -5
This... has... nothing... and..(lol)... I mean nothing to do with the argument. Yes, this region was called Epirus, and Byron, bring the Philhellen that he was, saw the antiquity with it... But, and read this slowly now Arxhi, this does not talk about population figures. Do you see what I mean?
Byron here visited Epirus, where he writes extensively about both Albs and Greeks. His escorts were Albs and the ruler of it was an Albanian. Oh btw, Delvine is the southern most area of Albania. See the ethnic ditribution map I show, look at the area nearest the Greek border near that little protuberance in south Albania... thats the area around Delvine.
I have NEVER NEVER said Janina was Albanian dominated, and nor does this above prove that it wasnt. He says Greeks of it... the city even had Turks btw, along with Jews and Serbs. I have always admitted that this southern part was majority Greek. Ioannina grew particularly with Greeks because of the funding Ali Pasha gave it which boosted a merchant Greek presence. He also took away the property of Turks in the region, forcing them to leave for areas like Macedonia, which were in full Ottoman control.
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 2:34:10 GMT -5
Dbl post... this forum is fukin me up...
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 2:38:27 GMT -5
Delvine, btw, like all cities in the Ottoman Empire, also had an internal Muslim majority. Greeks lived in areas like Finiq.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 2:43:00 GMT -5
Folks let's stop posting as I fear there maybe a back up restore comming up by proboards and as a result some posts maybe lost , hope not. It's hard to debate when the forum is acting like this There are serious errors "script errors" on the forums dada base.
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